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Old 14 November 2009, 07:44   #1
ImmortalA1000
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Amiga movies possible on stock OCS machine?

I was watching a video of SymbOS running on an Amstrad CPC computer and it included quite an impressively smooth playback of a 4 colour movie clip of a conversion of the MP4/AVI clip of the Matrix Reloaded trailer.

Right here is my question, given this is possible on a damned Z80 machine with crap video hardware......is there any software that will make such an impressive task happen on the Amiga A1000 in KS/WB 1.3?

Here is what I would like my beloved machine to do, the mother of all future Amigas......

Take some either bespoke or standard IFF anim and play it back in 24 frames per second @ 320x256 resolution either in EHB or HAM6.

and then that lead me onto the next thought....OK so the A1200 and A600 have IDE interfaces built in and we all know it is possible to convert a similar 2.5" IDE PC/Mac laptop to use a Compact Flash card via an adaptor....but how would you do this on an A1000 or A500? OK so there was the ICD Novia internal hard drive kit for the A500 I remember this well, it allows you to put a laptop PATA IDE drive inside your machine with I think the interface coming on a board that goes in the 68000 CPU socket and the CPU piggybacking onto the board.

So IF you had an OCS/ECS Amiga with and ICD Novia (?) IDE interface installed and a fast 4gb CF card slotted into the IDE port AND you had an Anim file or Clarissa file would this baby be able to play such a file in such high colour depths?

Is there any way to do this without using a hard drive and massive 10mb memory expansion zorro board for an A500? How low can the colour resolution go without it being a waste of time and looking like an 8bit slideshow?

Your opinions are welcome fellow Amigans
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Old 14 November 2009, 16:21   #2
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Even if they were very simple Ham6 animations I doubt that you could get such high frame rates (25fps) on a 7.xx mhz 68000 in a standard A1000. You would need to find a compromise between high colour depth, resolution, anim compression method used and high frame rates.

I converted a few AVI files to HAM6 format that was streamed along with sampled sound from the same drive to play video clips on an OCS Amiga500 and A590 hard drive as an 'attract mode' with the machine inside an arcade cabinet. I think I used 'Biganim' to stream it and an IFF sample streamer for the audio. The animation could only handle around 8 FPS for a 300x200 HAM6 Anim5 file, and 10 FPS for Anim7 format.

The playback frame rate would depend on how much action was involved in the animation. The clips were from some cartoons (Bugs Bunny vs Marvin the Martian, The final battle with the Bruton/Aurora robots from Astroboy, the Lego Raiders of the lost Ark/Starwars stop motion animation and some random 'Beanz Meanz Heinz (Get it Right!)' clips from the Goodies. The tricky part was getting the audio and video playback in sync as each was done by separate programs - after a lot of modifying I had it working 'good enough'.

Eventually I came across a 28mhz 68000 accelerator which improved performance dramatically (to about 19 FPS on average from memory).

If you have an Amiga 1000 with kickstart 1.3 and you could play CDXL HAM animations with audio (which were mainly for use with CDTV/CD32s) from a hard drive. You won't be able to achieve frame rates as high as 25fps without an accelerator but they're still impressive for a 7 mhz machine.
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Old 14 November 2009, 16:43   #3
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Hey Gary, could you tell me which CDXL player we can use on 68000? The ones on Aminet won't work on my A600, yet work fine on the A1200 and CD32.

I've seen CDXL videos playing on CDTVs so I wonder what players they used.
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Old 14 November 2009, 17:28   #4
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Yeh HAM6 would be a killer really, I seem to remember some coder at a show got a proprietory HAM6 animation coded to do about 12-5fps on a stock A2000?

The reason I mentioned the CF adaptor though (which sadly precludes pre A600 machines though) was because on a 'slow' little machine the improvement in useability by replacing the hard drive with a 7200rpm model was significant for Windows with less than the magic 256mb, so significant that before it would not play standard 700mb xvid/divx files but after replacement of drive it happily did so without dropping a frame.

The reason this came up is the Amstrad CPC using it's Z80 and no blitter was displaying something like 4 colours @ 320x200 in about 10fps whilst running a chiptune player and some other stuff at the same time.

I'm sure with a CF card, something like Clarissa SSA (super smooth animation) format and 32 colour frames with minimal dithering we could get something very good, if I had the equipment I would try it immediately.

I might have a play with this idea in WinUAE over xmas at least the terrabyte drives are massively fast and have a huge cache....better get converting on a suitable trailer to mess about with and work out how to record this for youtube haha

lol If I ever see that damned internal IDE interface for the A500 on ebay and a CPU socket fitting internal accelerator my bank balance is in big trouble

@Cammy I seem to remember Commodore making a big thing to the magazine reviewers of the CD32 machine that CDXL was 2-4x better on the CD32 than the CDTV (either frame rate or animated proportion of the screen) wasn't the CDTV quarter screen size only and about 15fps in Ham6?

*slow=slow running M$ bloatware...266mhz is NOT slow
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Old 15 November 2009, 01:21   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cammy View Post
Hey Gary, could you tell me which CDXL player we can use on 68000? The ones on Aminet won't work on my A600, yet work fine on the A1200 and CD32.

I've seen CDXL videos playing on CDTVs so I wonder what players they used.
I think I ended up soft-kicking to KS2.x and using the player from the CD32 development kit.
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Old 15 November 2009, 01:39   #6
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Yeh HAM6 would be a killer really, I seem to remember some coder at a show got a proprietory HAM6 animation coded to do about 12-5fps on a stock A2000?
That is probably because he wasn't using the Anim5 format which allows for better compression (smaller file size) but requires more CPU time to decompress and play the animation back. The Anim7 format requires less CPU but a larger file. I think the CDXL format had no compression.

Quote:
The reason this came up is the Amstrad CPC using it's Z80 and no blitter was displaying something like 4 colours @ 320x200 in about 10fps whilst running a chiptune player and some other stuff at the same time.
Yes, and an A1000 running a 2/4/8/16 color anim would be OK depending on the animation+compression method. 32 colours and Ham6 would be more difficult but it can be done. I achieved around 10fps but forgot to mention that I had some fast RAM and softkicked to KS2.0 - but it was a 7mhz 68000 A2000.

Quote:
I'm sure with a CF card, something like Clarissa SSA (super smooth animation) format and 32 colour frames with minimal dithering we could get something very good, if I had the equipment I would try it immediately.
I really doubt it unless you upgrade the 7mhz 68000 CPU. The hard drive speed is not the biggest problem - it is the CPU. I added a 28mhz 68000 accelerator to an Amiga 2000 while testing animation playback and the hard drive read/write increased dramatically. This was using an old A590 interface with a 100 meg scsci hard drive (not an 'XT' drive which may be too slow).
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Old 15 November 2009, 05:28   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gary View Post
That is probably because he wasn't using the Anim5 format which allows for better compression (smaller file size) but requires more CPU time to decompress and play the animation back. The Anim7 format requires less CPU but a larger file. I think the CDXL format had no compression.


Yes, and an A1000 running a 2/4/8/16 color anim would be OK depending on the animation+compression method. 32 colours and Ham6 would be more difficult but it can be done. I achieved around 10fps but forgot to mention that I had some fast RAM and softkicked to KS2.0 - but it was a 7mhz 68000 A2000.



I really doubt it unless you upgrade the 7mhz 68000 CPU. The hard drive speed is not the biggest problem - it is the CPU. I added a 28mhz 68000 accelerator to an Amiga 2000 while testing animation playback and the hard drive read/write increased dramatically. This was using an old A590 interface with a 100 meg scsci hard drive (not an 'XT' drive which may be too slow).
What about if we did the old ST trick of just blitting single pictures into memory from a very fast CF card....then you need zero CPU time except to actually display an image in sequence and then the next.
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Old 16 November 2009, 06:25   #8
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Is there an uncompressed format for the pictures we could use? Because if you increase the speed of the media to near 50% chipram speeds such as with a fast CF card solution the extra bytes loading will be less of an issue.

Could some really technical person do any timings for say how many cpu cycles it takes to load in a single 32 colour and 64 colour images of 320x256 resolution?

You need to read the data in sure...but what I am interested in is if in machine code you can even display single individual EHB or 32 colour images within 1/24th of a second. Some games obviously run @60hz and they are blitting a screens worth already no? So it stands to reason if you can get read speeds of uncompressed images down to 1/60th of a second so thats 320x256x5 or 320x256x6 bits/second transfer rate. Even at 320x256 bytes that is only a transfer rate of 640kb/second...way way below the maximum IDE interface speed even on an A600 surely....and there is no latency on CF cards either it's instant access.

Is the fact Amiga uses bitplane screen modes rather than half byte(nibble) or byte per pixel screen modes a problem there too?

I'm really not seeing why a 7mhz 68000 AND blitter with DMA transfer ability can't do it using single distinct images with no compression....it's not like 4Gb is not an insignificant amount of space to store the images on...and if the source is widescreen 16:9 you can drop to 320x200 or less too saving even more space.
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Old 16 November 2009, 12:26   #9
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Using CDXL on the CD32, we can get a streaming movie at around 12fps (I think, I forget the exact framerate) in HAM6 and 256 colours with a resolution of 320x64, which is then stretched using the Copper chip to 320x128, which is around 16x9 2.35:1 aspect ratio. The CD32 is limited to around 300kb/s datarate, which is slower than what you can push through the IDE or PCMCIA ports with a decent drive. But then the CD32 has a 020, and I haven't found any CDXL players that work on 68000 to test if my experimental CDXL videos will work on the A600.

CDXL is an uncompressed, sustained-data-rate animation format that uses ILBM frames and 8SVX streaming audio.
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Old 16 November 2009, 14:26   #10
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Then i assume we could play a movie using a 020 if we could have the tool to conver that Mpeg4 to the native ILBM and 8SVX formats... Despite i think we would get a very heavy file.
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Old 16 November 2009, 18:27   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ImmortalA1000 View Post
I was watching a video of SymbOS running on an Amstrad CPC computer and it included quite an impressively smooth playback of a 4 colour movie clip of a conversion of the MP4/AVI clip of the Matrix Reloaded trailer.

Right here is my question, given this is possible on a damned Z80 machine with crap video hardware......is there any software that will make such an impressive task happen on the Amiga A1000 in KS/WB 1.3?

Here is what I would like my beloved machine to do, the mother of all future Amigas......

Take some either bespoke or standard IFF anim and play it back in 24 frames per second @ 320x256 resolution either in EHB or HAM6.

and then that lead me onto the next thought....OK so the A1200 and A600 have IDE interfaces built in and we all know it is possible to convert a similar 2.5" IDE PC/Mac laptop to use a Compact Flash card via an adaptor....but how would you do this on an A1000 or A500? OK so there was the ICD Novia internal hard drive kit for the A500 I remember this well, it allows you to put a laptop PATA IDE drive inside your machine with I think the interface coming on a board that goes in the 68000 CPU socket and the CPU piggybacking onto the board.

So IF you had an OCS/ECS Amiga with and ICD Novia (?) IDE interface installed and a fast 4gb CF card slotted into the IDE port AND you had an Anim file or Clarissa file would this baby be able to play such a file in such high colour depths?

Is there any way to do this without using a hard drive and massive 10mb memory expansion zorro board for an A500? How low can the colour resolution go without it being a waste of time and looking like an 8bit slideshow?

Your opinions are welcome fellow Amigans
You sure it wasn't one of these? [ Show youtube player ]

Here are base specs, http://www.symbos.de/trex.htm

Apparently the core can run at up to 80 MHz now, http://c64upgra.de/c-one/
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Old 16 November 2009, 18:48   #12
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[ Show youtube player ]

Filmed in May 2007 at the Upstate N.Y. Amiga User Group Meeting in Waterloo, N.Y. An Amiga 2000 plays back Ham images taken from an AVI file at 15 fps.

sorry not stock OCS, but interesting nonetheless.

Last edited by DDNI; 16 November 2009 at 18:54.
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Old 16 November 2009, 18:59   #13
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Well it should actually not be very difficult to create a video player with a better capability than the Symbos one. From the symbos website if you look at this picture you can get more details on the format they use:
http://www.symbos.de/gfx/shots/apps/...s-symplay2.gif

FPS:12
Colors: 4
Imgae size: 248x128
Datarate: 768kbit/s (96KB/s)
sound: unknown for me

So as you see it should be no problem whatsoever even for the slowest amiga with the deadest interface to mimic that format and reproduce it.
Of course there is lots of room for improvements on the quality area for an amiga version.
It should be a really nice project for an enterpreneur amiga developer to get a video player like that, and an encoder of course!
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Old 16 November 2009, 20:21   #14
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CDXL 2 from CD32 probably wouldn't run on an A600 right?

Well there are two ways to do this. Compressed or uncompressed.

Taking uncompressed you are going to be hitting the throughput of the drive and A600's IDE interface or a Zorro side expansion unit's throughput. 40kb is the size of each image in 32 colours and 48k in ehb 64 colours, if you say 24fps then you get.... 40x24=983040kb per second. So you're going to need about 1mb per second like that.

But what is the maximum throughput in the Amiga system for streaming data in from IDE hard drives? That's the info I can't find reliably.


I can find drives and CF cards fast enough but how slow is the Amiga at taking onboard this data and putting it into memory locations to display? Blitting from RAM to RAM even 48kb x25 is no problem but latency and DMA could be an issue?

Also does anyone remember the program BigANIM (was a freebie on CU or AF and plays anims direct from hard disk)
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Old 16 November 2009, 20:52   #15
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Quote:
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You sure it wasn't one of these? [ Show youtube player ]

Here are base specs, http://www.symbos.de/trex.htm

Apparently the core can run at up to 80 MHz now, http://c64upgra.de/c-one/
No it was running on Caprice but setup as a real CPC6128 I think and not on that system set up. I know there is a 12mhz accelerator for the CPC which some also use. Obviously data transfer is much improved compared to even a CPC IDE interface kit though true.
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Old 16 November 2009, 23:45   #16
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Immy, well if you mean this is the clip you saw, [ Show youtube player ]

then it loads and decompresses 6KB data to 31K pixels in 1/12 second, with a <4 MHz Z80. While running SymbOS. Just thought it sounded a little too good to be true. But hell, if the SymbOS in the first YouTube vid I linked can even run on it, that alone is impressive

Probably not, you saw a clip from an emu?

Last edited by Photon; 16 November 2009 at 23:50.
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Old 16 November 2009, 23:50   #17
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I was thinking ALL Amigas can probably cope with the following video format:

16 colors at 320x200 (NTSC low-res) with 15fps:
video: 320x200x4bitsx15fps = 3840000 bits/s
audio: 2channelx8bitx27429hz = 438864 bits/s (aprox. 54kB/s)
Total datarate= aprox. 523 kB/s. Rounded up

Imagine an A1000 playing a movie with this resolution, it should be doable. Of course you could apply compression to save disk space with those open source already available XAD libraries.
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Old 17 November 2009, 02:41   #18
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Amiga Video Format (AVF) - first draft - 16 nov 2009

Features:
Number of Colors 2,4,8,16,upto 32 (HAM8 and 16/32 bit modes are Not available for every Amiga, so NO)
FPS= 5,10,15,20,24,25 upto 30 max
Image size: maximum 320x200, 320x100, 160x200, 160x100, 160x50, 80x100, 80x50
Sound: max 8bit, 2 channel, 27429hz, min 8bit mono at 4410hz, also 8000hz and, 160000hz
Datarate: Should be a maximum that most interfaces can cope with it
Compression: File compression to save space and reduce bandwith at the cost of cpu usage based on open source publicly available compression formats on Amigas.

Philosophy:
The concept behind this format is that even a 1985 256kB kickstart 1.0 NTSC 7mhz 68000 Amiga maybe able to reproduce it without issues, provided the ide/scsi/whatever interface and its media can cope with the datarate performance wise.
This is most likely the limiting factor, not the cpu if adequate or no compression is chosen.
The advantage of the Amiga is that DMA and coprocessors can be used without affecting the cpu performance on playback.
It should be no problem to add HAM8, 16 and 32 bit modes, but then as said before will only run on few Amigas that have that hardware, the same applies to more framerate, image size, sound features. The point here, is that if you have great hardware and want better resolutions, then simply use another video format. This one is intended to be Amiga compatible pursuing the goal that any Amiga should be able to reproduce it, no matter if it is a 1985 unexpanded model.
The proposed format should be designed in a way that frame dropping, image and color reduction should be pretty easy and require very little cpu overhead from a video player program point of view.
Of course, with compression, at the cost of cpu overhead, you can reduce the disk interface clog and earn bandwith in the process, so that the most handicaped storage interfaces can cope with datarates. It is important however, to leave some little bandwith for housekeeping tasks, such as video&audio synchronization, subtitles, scenes selection, menus, and future improvements.

Datarate hipothesis (aproximates are rounded up on worst case scenario: no compression and highest paula sound quality):

32 colors 320x200:
video: 320x200x5bitsx30fps = 9600000 bits/s
audio: 2x8bitx27429hz = 438864 bits/s (aprox. 54kB/s)
Total = aprox. 1.23 MB/s

32 colors 320x200:
video: 320x200x5bitsx25fps = 8000000 bits/s
audio: 2x8bitx27429hz = 438864 bits/s (aprox. 54kB/s)
Total = 8438864 bits/s (aprox. 1.04 MB/s)

16 colors 320x200:
video: 320x200x4bitsx25fps = 6400000 bits/s
audio: 2x8bitx27429hz = 438864 bits/s (aprox. 54kB/s)
Total = 6838864 bits/s (aprox. 835 kB/s)

8 colors at 320x200(NTSC low-res) with 30fps:
video: 320x200x3bitsx30fps = 5750000 bits/s
audio: 2x8bitx27429hz = 438864 bits/s (aprox. 54kB/s)
Total = bits/s (aprox. 757 kB/s)

16 colors at 320x200 (NTSC low-res) with 20fps:
video: 320x200x4bitsx20fps = 5120000 bits/s
audio: 2x8bitx27429hz = 438864 bits/s (aprox. 54kB/s)
Total = 5558864 bits/s (aprox. 679 kB/s)

32 colors at 320x200(NTSC low-res) with 15fps:
video: 320x200x5bitsx15fps = 4800000 bits/s
audio: 2x8bitx27429hz = 438864 bits/s (aprox. 54kB/s)
Total = aprox. 640 kB/s

8 colors at 320x200(NTSC low-res) with 20fps:
video: 320x200x3bitsx20fps = 3840000 bits/s
audio: 2x8bitx27429hz = 438864 bits/s (aprox. 54kB/s)
Total = aprox. 523 kB/s

16 colors at 320x200(NTSC low-res) with 15fps:
video: 320x200x4bitsx15fps = 3840000 bits/s
audio: 2x8bitx27429hz = 438864 bits/s (aprox. 54kB/s)
Total = aprox. 523 kB/s

8 colors at 320x200(NTSC low-res) with 15fps:
video: 320x200x3bitsx15fps = 2880000 bits/s
audio: 2x8bitx27429hz = 438864 bits/s (aprox. 54kB/s)
Total = 3318864 bits/s (aprox. 406 kB/s)


by IFG 21:36

PS: I declare myself guilty of too much free time


-END OF DOC-
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Old 17 November 2009, 04:52   #19
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Keep working on it! If you can write software to play decent video, we'll have so many uses for it in games and multimedia programs.
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Old 17 November 2009, 06:27   #20
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I think EHB should be an option, all Ami's can do 6bpp and it's only 15% more data for 100% improvement in colour resolution.

I doubt the old Commodore MFM drives for the A500 HD expansion would be any good.....still does anyone know the actual transx rates for the A600 IDE?
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