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Old 17 August 2002, 20:05   #21
jmmijo
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@Korodny, I like the boring low-level stuff that a system bios can deliver, if properly coded of course I like that Hyperion is working on it themselves now via Open Source. Should be interesting for sure.

As for the lost URL, would you be talking about something similar to the following

http://www.powercommander.com/suppusb.shtml
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Old 17 August 2002, 20:25   #22
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Quote:
Originally posted by Korodny
[BRight, but isn't that the kind of obscure concept that appeals to you? [/B]
Yes
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Old 17 August 2002, 20:31   #23
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Quote:
Originally posted by Korodny
A PCI card that fits into one of the A1's PCI slots. A ribbon cable connects this PCI card to the A1200 motherboard. The A1200 acts as an expansion to the A1, important Chipset register addresses are "mirrored" in the A1's memory. This way, software directly hitting the custom chip registers would work on the A1 (you would have to connect a monitor to the A1200's video/audio ports of course) and you could access A1200 ports from AmigaOS4 (joyports, floppy disk drive).

Escena were supposed to develop the PCI card. But to be honest, nobody in the OS4/AmigaOne development team expects them to deliver this hardware...

Alternatives:
Oh-oh, I see a problem here...

All teh alternatives look nice but... that would just allow you to read Amiga disks... What happens with the CUSTOM CHIPSET???

This means the A1 suddenly got SHITE in my eyes
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Old 17 August 2002, 23:03   #24
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@jmmijo:

Quote:
I like the boring low-level stuff that a system bios can deliver, if properly coded of course
Same goes for me

Quote:
As for the lost URL, would you be talking about something similar to the following
No, that's 9-Pin RS232 <-> USB adaptor. I know that somebody is selling either parallel port <-> 9-Pin digital joyport or USB <-> 9-Pin joyport adaptors. But I can't remember the URL....

@Akira:

Quote:
Oh-oh, I see a problem here...

All teh alternatives look nice but... that would just allow you to read Amiga disks... What happens with the CUSTOM CHIPSET???

This means the A1 suddenly got SHITE in my eyes
As explained in another thread, this mainly affects old games. You seem to misunderstand the aim of the AmigaOne project. The A1 does not want to replace your A500/A600 - it wants to replace your PC
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Old 18 August 2002, 06:43   #25
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I actually looked at the A1 as an expansion to my A1200... Expanding my A1200 enough to make it run OS4 and teh great new apps.

The promise of a way to connect the A1200 to the A1 to provide full backwards compatibility is now gone. What's next?

See why I don't trust Amiga Inc., or anything cominfg from them, anymore???? They just rammed another finger up our asses.

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Old 18 August 2002, 06:48   #26
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I keep telling youse its a big joke. Just read the language, tone and overall gist of their updates, releases, etc. Seems very unprofessional to me, very half assed hobby type bullcrap. Great, Kord and other beta testers and developers have a AmigaOne. How many of us will get one? Very few if at all. And this cannot , with all the talk talk talk excuse excuse excuse, look good to developers or consumers. Looks pretty bad overall handling to me. Where's that moron Mike Bouma now anyway? I sincerely feel bad for you Akira lil' buddy. As for me, now that the Blizzard thing is not a good option, I guess I'll never run OS 3.x let alone OS 4.
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Old 18 August 2002, 07:07   #27
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I don't know, I was getting hopefull with A1... if A1 was properly developed, and with AmigaDE, I could see some future with Amiga. I mean, you get an OS that can communicate with others (That's very important those days, or my OS teacher told me ), and you get an AMIGA with the custom chipset.. if you have this and still be cheaper than a PC, we could have a serious contender....
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Old 18 August 2002, 07:22   #28
Fred the Fop
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A classic law of logic, or of critical thinking:
The more "ifs" in your idea/theory/arguement, the weaker it is, until it cannot support the weigh of the claim.
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Old 18 August 2002, 09:24   #29
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Fred: you can run OS3.5 and 3.9 on 680x0 machines, Am I correct, Korodny?

You better grab a 68060 accelerator though.
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Old 18 August 2002, 09:30   #30
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@Fred

Good Point
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Old 18 August 2002, 10:55   #31
Fred the Fop
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@shatterhand: I kept saying "if" about Turkey v Brazil...but it did not help
Next time
AKira, how about you tell me the specifics of WHAT hardware i need to run 3.5.
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Old 18 August 2002, 16:40   #32
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To run OS3.5, you just need a bit of fast memory, a hard drive and a CD-ROM drive. The faster the processor, the better, but the plain 020 will do.

Edit: Oh yeah. And 3.1 ROM chips, too.

Last edited by blackcornflake; 18 August 2002 at 16:48.
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Old 18 August 2002, 18:18   #33
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@Akira:

Quote:
I actually looked at the A1 as an expansion to my A1200... Expanding my A1200 enough to make it run OS4 and teh great new apps.
Look, the custom chip backwards compatability would have been a nice gimmick - nothing more. It would have enabled you to run some old games and demos, or some 1989 landscape renderer. If you regard this as the main advantage of the AmigaOne, well then the AmigaOne is crap: Its backwards compatability would have been pretty limited anyway. A JIT-emulator booting some Kefrens demos from a floppy disk that it only accesses through registers that are mirrored over a PCI connection? Ouch

The AmigaOne/A1200 combination was never meant to replace a standalone A500/A1200 system. If you still need to run some very old stuff (DPaint), you'll now have to run it on your standalone A600/A1200 (which you would have had to keep anyway, even if the PCI bridge would have been released) or under AmigaUAE.

Quote:
The promise of a way to connect the A1200 to the A1 to provide full backwards compatibility is now gone. What's next?

See why I don't trust Amiga Inc., or anything cominfg from them, anymore???? They just rammed another finger up our asses.
While Amiga Inc. are making lots of mistakes, you can't blame them if the A1200 connector doesn't make its appearance. This is an Escena product, it was announced as an Escena product and Escena failed (will fail) to deliver it. There's nothing Amiga Inc. (or anybody else) can do about it.

One thing is funny: If I state that I already have a working A1 and that these babies will hit the market, Fred says "Zzzzzzzzzzz" while Akira moans "I don't trust them anyway". But if I tell you that I don't expect that the PCI bridge will ever become reality, everybody takes my word for granted and starts bashing Amiga Inc.

@Frederic

Quote:
A classic law of logic, or of critical thinking:
The more "ifs" in your idea/theory/arguement, the weaker it is, until it cannot support the weigh of the claim.
There are no "ifs". The A1 is finished. Working machines have been demonstrated to the public in the UK, the Netherlands and the US (two AmigaOne computers running Linux were demonstrated at the AmiWest two weeks ago). Eyetech did proof that the design is finished and that it works, what else do you expect? I guess they could visit you personally and shove a working A1 up your ass, and you'd still be complaining that "it's just a big joke". A thousand people already prepaid 50$ to state publicly that they're going to buy one. The only "if" in there is the following: Eyetech would be stupid if they wouldn't hit the market as soon as possible.

AmigaOS4 is another problem. Obviously, I can't proof that it exists, but you somewhat seem to believe in it anyway, as you were already asking what classic hardware you'll need to run it. Hyperion is currently considering releasing a mpeg video of the A1 booting OS4 (to the CLI). Don't know if they'll do it though.

Quote:
AKira, how about you tell me the specifics of WHAT hardware i need to run 3.5.
I'd consider a 68030, 16MB and AGA to be the minimum hardware requirements. A gfx card is highly recommended, but if you don't have a bigbox Amiga (A2000/3000/4000) that option is way to expensive. If you have an A1200, get any of the Blizzard accellerators (1230, 1240, 1260), depending on the amount of money you're willing to spend, that's excellent hardware. If you have neither a bigbox Amiga nor an A1200, get an A1200 first. Go for OS 3.9, it's way better and much more stable than 3.5.

But once again: Buying classic hardware now makes only sense if you're a collector or want to run old games. OS 3.9 is not very useful for collectors and/or retro-gamers, that makes me think you actually want to use it. In that case, you'd better wait for Amithlon2 or the AmigaOne. Or use WinUAE-JIT for now.
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Old 18 August 2002, 18:44   #34
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Thanks for your advice on the Amiga setups and OS 3.x-4. But you really fail to get my point. Regardlesss of your act of physical violence , my arguement is: Will AmigaOne ever make it to the masses? Or will a few hundred be the lucky ones? My guess is the latter. When I see it in shops and can order it online, and believe me, i will, then I will beleive it. You speak to someone here wwho has had assuraances of things that seemed infinitely more certain than AmigaOne and had those expectations crumble. Easy now man.
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Old 18 August 2002, 20:27   #35
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Quote:
Originally posted by Korodny
The AmigaOne/A1200 combination was never meant to replace a standalone A500/A1200 system.
Of course, because the A1 would have expanded the A1200!
Quote:
One thing is funny: If I state that I already have a working A1 and that these babies will hit the market, Fred says "Zzzzzzzzzzz" while Akira moans "I don't trust them anyway". But if I tell you that I don't expect that the PCI bridge will ever become reality, everybody takes my word for granted and starts bashing Amiga Inc.
I moan because this is not what I wanted. You are the "current Amiga stuff" guru over here, no doubts about that. So I believe strongly in what you said/say. Your words convinced me of liking the A1, something I never considered before! And your words now also convinced me that I was right, this is not the product for me. There's no need to get onto "Amiga Inc. lovin mode", the backwards compatibility issue, methinks, was a defining factor among all those that actually have expanded Amigas and looked onto this as a way of putting their miggys up to scratch with today's standards. It's not me alone who would like the system to have backwards compatibility, am I? Don't be so unfair upon moi

I think I might as well switch to Amithlon, what do you think?? I have a pretty fast PC.
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Old 18 August 2002, 21:00   #36
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It's not me alone who would like the system to have backwards compatibility, am I?
No you're not alone

But, original A1200 was never meant to do many things when it was first released. A computer manufactured in 1992 can connect to the internet, with additional hardware you can have loads of memory, fast PPC cpu, PCI slots and more. A1 is doesn't seem to be designed run old games at all but we can have some sort of hardware solution if A1 becomes successful and if there's enough demand for backwards compatibility (I'm using too many "if"s see? )

Being able to connect an A1200 mobo didn't look like a solution to me at all, you can't just rely on a piece of hardware that is not in production for 10 years besides I believe it is much cheaper and easier to manufacture AGA chipset now, then it was in 90s. I know the quantity will be small but I say I demand this hardware, Akira does and so do many others. If we just shut up and accept what Amiga Inc. offers, or persuade ourselves that Amiga Inc. is providing the best solution available, we'll never get what we really want. Emulation is just emulation, real hardware is another thing. Putting an 68k cpu on mobo is expensive therefore not possible, that's understandable since I can justify emulating an 68k cpu with a PPC cpu in my mind. But the problem is, a new amiga needs to be natively compatible with the old amiga, and the old amiga was alive for many years not with it's os (no matter how great it is) but with games that benefit from the specific hardware it had. This is a matter of seeing the subject from a certain angle or not, sure amiga had workbench from the very beginning but it doesn't owe it's success to the os!

As an existing amiga user, I can't have the exact feeling of using a classic amiga when I'm using my PPC, even though it is a classic amiga! Just the shape of the case doesn't let me to live the experience to it's fullest. It's a matter of percieving your needs, my pc is faster than my ppc amiga, my ppc amiga is faster than my 030 but slower than my pc. Neither of my PC, and PPC amiga offer the classic experience I'm having using my 030 amiga so I like my 030 more than my PPC! Call it a luxury, but retrocomputing is luxury and we're kind of people who enjoy it.

A1 is a different piece of hardware sure, but we demand additional backwards compatibility when it is possible, there's nothing bad thinking about it, I may be an amiga customer once again when this requirement is met, it's eyetech's decision whether or not to meet this demand, third party solutions might also appear as well. Appearance of a new amiga, no matter how compatible it is, is the beginning, but as users, we need to tell them what we really want when it is time. once again

"Classic amiga is dead, play with your rotten a500s if you are so enthusiastic about it!" Saying this, will not be a solution neither for users nor for hardware/software developers. The existance of demand for backwards compatibility cannot be ignored. None of us wish eyetech or Amiga inc. lose money on this, but this kind of attitude is very dangerous since it's us enthusiasts that have kept the amiga alive all these years, and we'd be so very upset if we feel we're tricked once again, insisting on not to meet the demand might be a fatal mistake.

Last edited by Burseg; 18 August 2002 at 21:26.
 
Old 18 August 2002, 21:20   #37
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personally for me the gr8est part of amiga software was/are games . And if the AmigaOne will be too fast to play for example Lotus 2 on it I will say "F*%$in' G3"
 
Old 18 August 2002, 21:21   #38
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I also like the A1 and the approach being taken to update the OS, coupled with a faster machine

I however I'm with Akira and Burseg in that I want the backwards compatibility

What would have been ideal for me however, would be a classic Amiga AGA machine on a PCI card that goes into either a Power MAC or a PC. I tell you what, if Amiga, Inc. had contracted with one of the Taiwanese chipset manufacturers they would have had a product a long time ago and in the meantime would have had some extra cash to shove into marketing and design of both the new OS and Motherboard. I think they could've gotten many users to switch over to the A1 because of this design.

I do realize that CBM had architecture way ahead of anything at the time but you would think with the advent of .15/.13 micron chip design being the mainstream now, it surely would have the ability to create custom designed asic's for use on a PCI card like this. Of course these are just my opinions on how this could've come about but hey there may just be others that agree with me, who know
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Old 18 August 2002, 23:07   #39
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@Fred:

Quote:
Will AmigaOne ever make it to the masses? Or will a few hundred be the lucky ones? My guess is the latter. When I see it in shops and can order it online, and believe me, i will, then I will beleive it.
Now I'm confused, really. If you agree that the "A1 might get released", what makes you think that there will be "just a few hundred lucky ones"?

Eyetech and Hyperion are risking a lot by developing the A1/OS4. If they fail to bring it to the market, both of them will loose a lot of money. But if they manage to release it, why should they limit the availability?

Quote:
Easy now man.
I'm easy. If it seems otherwise, that's just my limited knowledge of the English language.

(and the fact that my sense of humour doesn't work too well in written form, but from my point of view you're having the same problem )

@Akira:

Quote:
Your words convinced me of liking the A1, something I never considered before!
Oh, thanks

Quote:
And your words now also convinced me that I was right, this is not the product for me. There's no need to get onto "Amiga Inc. lovin mode",
That might be true. It really depends on what you expect your Amiga to do. It seems you're using your Amigas to be creative - in a way the PC doesn't allow you to be creative (you mentioned a bunch of really cool and unique oldskool applications in that other thread). Of course, if the A1 doesn't run your main applications, it's not of much use to you.

But your approach is still somewhat "retro", isn't it? While these applications were extremely cool when they were released (and still have good things on offer), they appear limited by todays standards. The problem is that the AmigaOne is not "retro" (IMHO of course).

Quote:
the backwards compatibility issue, methinks, was a defining factor among all those that actually have expanded Amigas and looked onto this as a way of putting their miggys up to scratch with today's standards. It's not me alone who would like the system to have backwards compatibility, am I?
Well, not on this board, of course The people using eab are the "retro bunch". Of course they're all for backwards compatability. But go to amiga-news.de and read the archives: People were even flaming the A1, because of it's backwards compatability.

But seriously, nobody is against backwards compatability - but if there's no chance of getting it, I'll move on and live without it. I can do that, as I didn't use the custom chips on my main Amiga in the last three years (that's when I got my soundcard).

Quote:
I think I might as well switch to Amithlon, what do you think?? I have a pretty fast PC.
Amithlon does have the same level of backwards compatability as a stock AmigaOne: It doesn't emulate the custom chips. Basically, Amithlon turns your PC into a superfast OS3.x based Amiga without custom chips. I don't think that's what you need?
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Old 19 August 2002, 02:31   #40
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This is all rather futile, isn't it? Since when is it required that new computers maintain full compatibility with decade+ old software. Maybe some examples of a machine released these days that has backwards compatibility with its old games? It's never even a consideration. We have ample ways to play the old games (emulation, our physical classic Amigas, etc.) so why must we create near-impossible demands of a new machine that is likely to cripple and/or stifle new inroads in technology advancement just so we can play Turrican. CD players aren't sold with 45RPM backwards compatibility, despite the loud army of vinyl freaks who piss and moan about the digital harshness of CD's.

For me, I am looking for an alternative...an escape route, if you will, to the crippling effects of having to use a PC. Everyday I bitch about the stupidity of this box, its OS and the shabbily-written bloatware apps. I need a port in the storm. The Mac isn't that port. Some form of Unix/Linux/etc. might be the ticket. But I always liked AmigaDOS and there is a possibility of returning to some of the concepts revolutionized with that OS in a modern environment. And if I can't boot up Titus the Fox on that system, I'll boot it up on one of my four A500's that I paid practically nothing for. I already own them, they are already taking up space and they are what the game was created to be run on. But I want a machine that I can interact with on a modern level without the need for a PC that I so vehemently despise.

My 2k...
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