English Amiga Board Amiga Lore


Go Back   English Amiga Board > Main > Retrogaming General Discussion

 
 
Thread Tools
Old 07 November 2009, 02:28   #161
Retro-Nerd
Missile Command Champion

Retro-Nerd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Germany
Age: 45
Posts: 10,628
Quote:
Oh, gameplay. Fanboys whose systems have inferior graphics always fall back on "gameplay". Apparently, "gameplay" is the absence of good graphics, because console titles tend to have better controls, larger level designs, fairer difficulty, and greater variety..
Sorry, no comment this time. It speaks for itself. This generalized phrase is ridiculous, and "Fanboys" is the first word i usually hear if somebody lacks good arguments.

Last edited by Retro-Nerd; 07 November 2009 at 02:36.
Retro-Nerd is offline  
AdSense AdSense  
Old 07 November 2009, 03:16   #162
Dan Locke
Registered User
Dan Locke's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: USA
Posts: 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by Galahad/FLT View Post
No you don't, you seem to have a hangup about more channels automatically means better sound
Because it does, in the same way that the Amiga's graphics are better than the ST's because they have more colors and faster scrolling.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Galahad/FLT View Post
Amiga music on the whole didn't rely on sound from the processor, PAULA was used to play samples, i.e. not limited to what the hardware could produce.
You're confusing me. I can't make head or tail of that sentence. Paula was used to play samples because Paula was a sample-based chip rather than a waveform-based chip. It's not like the 8-bit computers that used the CPU to help the PSG.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Galahad/FLT View Post
Megabit or Megabyte? Console owners love to get that one confused!
MegaBYTE. Converted from 48 megaBITS. I frankly don't know why "megabit" even exists as a term, but that's what I found.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Galahad/FLT View Post
You gave the example not me, I simply countered it, quite effectively it would seem!
What did you counter, and with what? Which "example" did I give of what?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Galahad/FLT View Post
Did consoles REALLY run EVERYTHING from ROM on the cartridges? I politely suggest you get yourself informed, whats the point of VRAM if it'll just run it from ROM??
You know, I'm glad that you asked. I just did some research, and apparently the SNES uses DMA to transfer data from the cartridge ROM to the onboard VRAM. So, while it may not run things directly from ROM, the transition is so fast and seamless that it makes no difference! And that is why the SNES's 128 KB of onboard RAM is not comparable to the Amiga's 1 MB!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Galahad/FLT View Post
And yet the Amiga is blessed with thousands upon thousands of modules and TFMX tunes that precisely demonstrate just how much skill Amiga musicians had, because they sure as hell sound better than most of the stuff on the SNES..
Which has nothing to do with the fact that the SNES was a console, right? Right?

Oh, wait, it does.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Galahad/FLT View Post
You seem adroitly capable of forgetting that the Amiga was a machine ANYONE could get involved and create something, hence the plethora of BETTER sounding music on Amiga. Damn that machine and its lousy 8bit 4 channel sound!
Well, of course the machine with people who do nothing on it BUT music is going to have better music from an AESTHETIC point of view than the machine with BETTER HARDWARE but far less emphasis on the music MADE WITH IT. I said that it had better sound hardware, not better music. I hardly ever listen to SNES music because music was much less of a priority on the SNES, and it was consequently inferior to the Amiga's, which had the demoscene behind it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Galahad/FLT View Post
You'll have to do better than that i'm afraid, that book is a little too generic in its figures. Fact is, the Amiga 500 outsold the Atari 520 STfm by quite a margin before the their time was up, not even bothering to lump in the A500+ and the A600. Your book (hardcover or otherwise!) puts in ST, STF, STFM, STE, 520, 1040, Mega, and i'm pretty sure it even lumps in TT sales as being 'ST' as well.
I bet that it doesn't lump in TT sales, and it wouldn't make much of a difference if it did, seeing as it was so unpopular. But I wasn't comparing the sales of the 500 and 520STFM; I was comparing the sales of the Amiga RANGE to the ST RANGE. I suppose that you could make the case that Macs outsell PCs because the MacBook outsells the HP Blackhawk.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Galahad/FLT View Post
I didn't say it was, I was merely explaining that the turnaround on Amiga games was quicker, which goes back to the point you made a while ago about why Amiga games had such a short lifespan. Feel free to go re-read it, i'm of the mind I can't be arsed to repeat myself for your convenience.
But I wasn't making a point about their lifespans. I was talking about how developers INTERPRETED those lifespans.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Galahad/FLT View Post
I'm not interested in defending anyone else
Then don't mention anyone else!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Galahad/FLT View Post
i'm directly responding to you, no-one else. Do try and keep up now!
I have been.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Galahad/FLT View Post
Jesus wept, did you just goto pre-school to dig up that response?!?!?! What kind of childish bullshit was that?
Only the kind that pertains to the topic at hand. You said that the consoles' platforming library was no better than the Amiga's, I said that it is, you said that you didn't care because 40 good platformers is enough, and then I said that it doesn't change the fact that the consoles have more high-quality platformers than the Amiga does. Got it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Galahad/FLT View Post
Quite clearly, yet more platformers in a market oversaturated with platformers is not welcome, I would have thought that was abundantly obvious, but if your want is to subsist on a diet of only platformers and shoot-em-ups with the odd RPG, be my guest, thats my idea of a lack of originality, and an audience that is as banal as it is easily pleased.... or so they think!
I actually like adventure games (of both point-and-click and text-based varieties), flight simulators, and puzzle games (real puzzle games, not this match-3 garbage that's clogging the casual market these days). I can't stand RPGs at all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Galahad/FLT View Post
But it wasn't just sofware companies, development teams disbanded, joined others, did they delete all their old code, or did they bring it along? What do you reckon to Aladdin, Lion King, Cool Spot, Global Gladiators? Its all the same bloody code, you think this was a rare occurence? Broaden your mind mate for gods sake!
My mind is quite "broad" enough, thank you very much. I know that game engines were recycled (look at Earthworm Jim and Doom Troopers for a prime example), but you're acting like every console game uses the same engine as every other console game.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Galahad/FLT View Post
Not really the point is it? That makes the suggestion that there were no bad developers on Genesis and SNES, and thats clearly not the case.
No, it "makes the suggestion" that, while the console developers were sometimes terrible, they still were better on average than the Amiga's developers - which, considering that the Amiga was a far more accessible platform, is just what you'd expect. I'm not knocking the Amiga (it's my favorite system of all time), just some of its developers. There are plenty of Amiga games that I absolutely love (Flashback especially), but not as many as there are on the consoles. Conversely, the consoles have fewer absolutely horrible games than the Amiga does (though Awesome Possum proves that they still have them).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Galahad/FLT View Post
Because its deceitful.
Believe me; if I wanted to twist your words, I could do a far better job of it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Galahad/FLT View Post
You selectively picking out sentences in a paragraph to question me on something that is only inferred by you snipping what I wrote. If you can't see a problem with that, I would suggest you read up on how to debate properly.
If I'm going to quote something to set up my response, I'm only going to quote the part that sets up my response. I didn't mention your assertion that the consoles also had poor developers because, frankly, it had nothing to do with the part that I was responding to. I would have quoted the rest of your post a line down if I had anything meaningful to say about it, but I didn't. Either your following statement was in agreement with the part that I quoted (it was) or it was contradictory (it wasn't). Either way, what difference does it make? Here, I'll make a Venn diagram to illustrate the point that I made:



Home computers are much more accessible platforms than consoles, as a result, they attract more bad developers than consoles do. Conversely, the consoles attract more good developers, because they know that console owners have higher expectations for a machine that's designed do do nothing but play games.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Retro-Nerd View Post
Sorry, no comment this time. It speaks for itself. This generalized phrase is ridiculous, and "Fanboys" is the first word i usually hear if somebody lacks good arguments.
Hey, I'm a huge Amiga fan, and I happen to like more console games than I do Amiga games, even though I don't care a whit about the consoles themselves. Capisce?

Last edited by Dan Locke; 07 November 2009 at 03:29.
Dan Locke is offline  
Old 07 November 2009, 03:28   #163
Retro-Nerd
Missile Command Champion

Retro-Nerd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Germany
Age: 45
Posts: 10,628
Quote:
Conversely, the consoles have fewer absolutely horrible games than the Amiga does (though Awesome Possum proves that they still have them).
Another myth that isn't true. You find gazillions of awful games on the NES, SNES, Mega Drive. Check some AVGN clips, he showed us some (only the tip of the iceberg).
Retro-Nerd is offline  
Old 07 November 2009, 03:38   #164
Dan Locke
Registered User
Dan Locke's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: USA
Posts: 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by Retro-Nerd View Post
Another myth that isn't true. You find gazillions of awful games on the NES, SNES, Mega Drive. Check some AVGN clips, he showed us some (only the tip of the iceberg).
You're talking about the NES and 2600 more than you are the Genesis and SNES. Absolutely loaded with terrible games, with a few good ones that don't come close to balancing them out. The good-to-bad ratio of the 16-bit platforms, including the Amiga, is much less severe. I'd wager that the NES and 2600 has more horrible games than the Amiga, Genesis, and SNES combined.
Dan Locke is offline  
Old 07 November 2009, 03:53   #165
Galahad/FLT
Going nowhere

Galahad/FLT's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 44
Posts: 6,504
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Locke View Post
Because it does, in the same way that the Amiga's graphics are better than the ST's because they have more colors and faster scrolling.

Bollocks, utter bollocks. So, how does Stunt Car Racer benefit from more colours and faster scrolling? If the music is shit in the first place, an extra 4 channels suddenly makes a shit tune sould great? Maybe in your world!I guess the C64 with only 3 channels sounds shit because it only has 3 channels... yeah, that makes a tonne of sense! More channels means the POTENTIAL to produce better tunes, that does NOT equate to WILL be better!

You're confusing me. I can't make head or tail of that sentence. Paula was used to play samples because Paula was a sample-based chip rather than a waveform-based chip. It's not like the 8-bit computers that used the CPU to help the PSG.

But thats the point, you stated that because the SNES was 16bit, its automatically a better sounding end result.... clearly not, because the Amiga was never limited to whatever could be programmed from the chip. Didn't ever have to program a drum sound, or pan pipes, just grab a sample, and damn, it sounds like its supposed to be. Consider this EASY salient fact. Are you honestly telling me that Xenon 2 Megablast title music would sound REMOTELY as good as the Amiga version?


MegaBYTE. Converted from 48 megaBITS. I frankly don't know why "megabit" even exists as a term, but that's what I found.

Its a console throwback to making out the games were bigger than they actually were, kids lapped it up.

What did you counter, and with what? Which "example" did I give of what?

I suggest you read what was written. Remember your utterly ludicrous "well they could have filled the cartridge up with music" as some postulating proposal on how the SNES could have sounded better? See, I countered, and did it with aplomb.


You know, I'm glad that you asked. I just did some research, and apparently the SNES uses DMA to transfer data from the cartridge ROM to the onboard VRAM. So, while it may not run things directly from ROM, the transition is so fast and seamless that it makes no difference! And that is why the SNES's 128 KB of onboard RAM is not comparable to the Amiga's 1 MB!

Fraid you're a little mixed up there mucker, because that 128kb of ram isn't so great for storing lots of nice sounding samples, which ironically, a SNES with enough VRAM would have sounded bloody fantastic. And there is still the issue with ROM size on the cartridge, as samples don't compress very well, especially 16bit samples, and ROM space is at a premium on cartridges (i.e. an extra 512k ROM space bumps up the costs for the publishers quite a bit!), so as you can see, price and hardware hampered the SNES. They had to make a choice, either using the sound processor to do generated sound and have lots more graphics, or use lots of cartridge sapping space samples and have less graphics and cost more. See how my V8 Cadillac analogy actually works, unlike your response?


Which has nothing to do with the fact that the SNES was a console, right? Right?

Oh, wait, it does.

Your assertion was that the Amiga had to have a lot of skilled musicians to pull off the feat of nice sounding music, I simply pointed out why it was so, and why the games industry had a plethora of people to choose from, of course if you read between the lines, you'd have figured that out without me having to point it out to you! Sigh


Well, of course the machine with people who do nothing on it BUT music is going to have better music from an AESTHETIC point of view than the machine with BETTER HARDWARE but far less emphasis on the music MADE WITH IT. I said that it had better sound hardware, not better music. Do you know how often I listen to SNES music? Never.

But hang on, the SNES has 16bit sound and 4 extra channels, you told me the music would automatically be better..... why ever wouldn't you want to listen to SNES music? You need to make up your mind.


I bet that it doesn't lump in TT sales, and it wouldn't make much of a difference if it did, seeing as it was so unpopular. But I wasn't comparing the sales of the 500 and 520STFM; I was comparing the sales of the Amiga RANGE to the ST RANGE. I suppose that you could make the case that Macs outsell PCs because the MacBook outsells the HP Blackhawk.

Largely semantics really, the STE was quite a bit different to the STFM. Remind me, how many Falcons were sold versus the A1200? Bearing in mind the ST series pretty much died on its arse come late 1992


But I wasn't making a point about their lifespans. I was talking about how developers INTERPRETED those lifespans.

There was nothing to interpret! It was quicker to develop on Amiga, or do you think they sat on their arses when they finished a game? No, they would be swiftly moving onto another project. Turnaround was quicker, none of this evaluation that publishers had to do with Sega and Nintendo, just like publishers have to do with Sony and Microsoft today. All of that stuff completely passed the Amiga by, once the game was done, it was released.


Then don't mention anyone else!
Er, I haven't!


I have been.


Only the kind that pertains to the topic at hand. You said that the consoles' platforming library was no better than the Amiga's, I said that it is, you said that you didn't care because 40 good platformers is enough, and then I said that it doesn't change the fact that the consoles have more high-quality platformers than the Amiga does. Got it?

I didn't state anything of the sort with regards to consoles having a better library of platformers or not, what I did state was that in the great scheme of things, I simply don't care. 40 is more than enough derivatives for me, that consoles have 200 or 500 better platformers still doesn't alter that there are just simply more of the same thing, because lets face it, when it comes to originality and 'wow', well you're not going to get it in a platformer!


I actually like adventure games (of both point-and-click and text-based varieties), flight simulators, and puzzle games (real puzzle games, not this match-3 garbage that's clogging the casual market these days). I can't stand RPGs at all.

Well thats good to know, and like I stated before, this is the Amigas strength, jack of all trades, master of some, if I want to play a flight sim, I won't be doing it on a SNES!


My mind is quite "broad" enough, thank you very much. I know that game engines were recycled (look at Earthworm Jim and Doom Troopers for a prime example), but you're acting like every console game uses the same engine as every other console game.

You'd be surprised just how often the same game engines are reused over and over again with just minor tweaking for different things, but once the first game is out the door, the development time is halved for the next one, because they sure as hell do not recode it all from scratch. Actua Soccer, Actua Tennis, Actua Pool, Actua Ice Hockey, Actua Golf..... all used the same game engine, all completely different games.


No, it "makes the suggestion" that, while the console developers were sometimes terrible, they still were better on average than the Amiga's developers - which, considering that the Amiga was a far more accessible platform, is just what you'd expect. I'm not knocking the Amiga (it's my favorite system of all time), just some of its developers. There are plenty of Amiga games that I absolutely love (Flashback especially), but not as many as there are on the consoles. Conversely, the consoles have fewer absolutely horrible games than the Amiga does (though Awesome Possum proves that they still have them).

For someone thats not knocking the Amiga, you've done a bang up job for the last two pages proving otherwise!
...
Galahad/FLT is offline  
Old 07 November 2009, 05:26   #166
switchblade
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: United States
Age: 30
Posts: 95
Oh, lord! This is like watching a train-wreck! It's so horrible, but you can't just look away.
switchblade is offline  
Old 07 November 2009, 05:47   #167
Dan Locke
Registered User
Dan Locke's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: USA
Posts: 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by Galahad/FLT View Post
Bollocks, utter bollocks. So, how does Stunt Car Racer benefit from more colours and faster scrolling?
It doesn't, although it certainly could have. The fact that a game doesn't utilize a platform's extra features doesn't diminish them in any way. I take it that the 3DO's graphics are no better than the ST's because Cannon Fodder looks the same on both platforms?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Galahad/FLT View Post
If the music is shit in the first place, an extra 4 channels suddenly makes a shit tune sould great?
No, when did I say that?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Galahad/FLT View Post
Maybe in your world!I guess the C64 with only 3 channels sounds shit because it only has 3 channels... yeah, that makes a tonne of sense!
No, it actually doesn't.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Galahad/FLT View Post
More channels means the POTENTIAL to produce better tunes, that does NOT equate to WILL be better!
I said that the the SNES has better sound HARDWARE, because it DOES. I also said the the Amiga has better MUSICIANS, because it DOES. But when we're comparing the relative merits of a PLATFORM, especially with regard to GAMES, the SNES has the edge.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Galahad/FLT View Post
But thats the point, you stated that because the SNES was 16bit, its automatically a better sounding end result
Yes, if the samples are recorded correctly. 16 bits is CD-quality sound resolution.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Galahad/FLT View Post
.... clearly not, because the Amiga was never limited to whatever could be programmed from the chip. Didn't ever have to program a drum sound, or pan pipes, just grab a sample, and damn, it sounds like its supposed to be.
What are you TALKING about?! When did I EVER say that you had to program samples on the SNES from scratch?! Instruments were almost ALWAYS recorded, and they sounded clearer because its sound chip had 256 TIMES THE RESOLUTION THAT PAULA HAD.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Galahad/FLT View Post
Consider this EASY salient fact. Are you honestly telling me that Xenon 2 Megablast title music would sound REMOTELY as good as the Amiga version?
It would sound TWICE as good, and a lot clearer to boot!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Galahad/FLT View Post
Its a console throwback to making out the games were bigger than they actually were, kids lapped it up.
Sorta like "Blast Processing", huh?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Galahad/FLT View Post
I suggest you read what was written. Remember your utterly ludicrous "well they could have filled the cartridge up with music" as some postulating proposal on how the SNES could have sounded better? See, I countered, and did it with aplomb.
NO, THAT'S NOT AT ALL WHAT I SAID! YOU SAID THAT THE 128-KB RAM LIMITED THE LENGTH OF A SONG ON THE SNES, AND I SAID THAT IT WOULD ONLY DO THAT IF IT WASN'T LOADING INSTANTLY FROM A CARTRIDGE! GAH, DO YOU EVEN KNOW WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT?! YOU SAID THAT RAM WAS A TECHNICAL LIMITATION ON SONG LENGTH, I SAID THAT IT WASN'T, AND THEN YOU USED MY ILLUSTRATION OF WHY THE SNES'S LOW RAM DIDN'T AFFECT ITS SONG LENGTH TO "PROVE" THAT YOU NEED A WHOLE CARTRIDGE TO GET BETTER SAMPLE QUALITY ON THE SNES THAN ON THE AMIGA! DON'T YOU KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT THE TWO MACHINES?! I DON'T EVEN POST IN ALLCAPS UNLESS SOMEBODY SAYS SOMETHING REALLY STUPID!

For someone who complains that I twist his words, you're doing an awful lot of it yourself.

If you really need a concrete example of WHY the SNES has better sound quality, listen to the soundtrack of Final Fantasy III (or VI, if you're playing the original Japanese version), and compare the clarity of the string samples with that of, say Lionheart. In fact, turn WinUAE's Chip RAM and Fast RAM all the way up and see if Lionheart sounds any better.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Galahad/FLT View Post
Fraid you're a little mixed up there mucker, because that 128kb of ram isn't so great for storing lots of nice sounding samples
Hellooo, it loads from the cartridge, remember? It only stores the samples immediately before they're played, then dumps them and loads new ones. It can do this because they load INSTANTLY from a CARTRIDGE.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Galahad/FLT View Post
which ironically, a SNES with enough VRAM would have sounded bloody fantastic.
And it doesn't already?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Galahad/FLT View Post
And there is still the issue with ROM size on the cartridge, as samples don't compress very well, especially 16bit samples, and ROM space is at a premium on cartridges (i.e. an extra 512k ROM space bumps up the costs for the publishers quite a bit!), so as you can see, price and hardware hampered the SNES.
I assume that the Amiga's 880 KB floppies were not affected by this limitation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Galahad/FLT View Post
They had to make a choice, either using the sound processor to do generated sound and have lots more graphics, or use lots of cartridge sapping space samples and have less graphics and cost more. See how my V8 Cadillac analogy actually works, unlike your response?
No.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Galahad/FLT View Post
Your assertion was that the Amiga had to have a lot of skilled musicians to pull off the feat of nice sounding music, I simply pointed out why it was so, and why the games industry had a plethora of people to choose from, of course if you read between the lines, you'd have figured that out without me having to point it out to you! Sigh
That was really incomprehensible.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Galahad/FLT View Post
But hang on, the SNES has 16bit sound and 4 extra channels, you told me the music would automatically be better.....
I NEVER SAID THAT! WHY DON'T YOU ACTUALLY READ WHAT I DID SAY? HERE IT IS, SO THAT YOU DON'T HAVE TO SCROLL UP THE PAGE TO READ IT:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Locke View Post
Well, of course the machine with people who do nothing on it BUT music is going to have better music from an AESTHETIC point of view
To put it another way, a 1024x786 TrueColor PNG of a bull's anus is going to be a lot uglier than a 320x200 HAM image of an ocean sunset, but it's also going to be a lot clearer (more colors) and bigger (more pixels) because of the superior hardware that it's on. Here's another analogy: the Jaguar's games had some of the worst design ever, even though the Jaguar itself was technically advanced for its time. Got it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Galahad/FLT View Post
why ever wouldn't you want to listen to SNES music? You need to make up your mind.
I made up my mind after I couldn't find anything better than the Earthworm Jim soundtrack, which I converted to WAV form before deleting the player (as there really isn't much of a point in having a player if you only use it for one song). But the SNES soundtracks that I listened to sound much clearer and fuller than even the best Amiga modules. And I have a lot of Amiga modules.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Galahad/FLT View Post
Largely semantics really, the STE was quite a bit different to the STFM. Remind me, how many Falcons were sold versus the A1200? Bearing in mind the ST series pretty much died on its arse come late 1992
Yeah, and the 1200 didn't really do well either. Commodore went bankrupt a year after it was released.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Galahad/FLT View Post
There was nothing to interpret! It was quicker to develop on Amiga, or do you think they sat on their arses when they finished a game? No, they would be swiftly moving onto another project.
And, because games were so easy and cheap to develop, more substandard developers with less talent and money made games for the Amiga. That's always the way that it's been with consoles vs. computers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Galahad/FLT View Post
Turnaround was quicker, none of this evaluation that publishers had to do with Sega and Nintendo, just like publishers have to do with Sony and Microsoft today. All of that stuff completely passed the Amiga by, once the game was done, it was released.
And what's your point here? The guy in the interview even said himself that the games tended to be shallow and mindless.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Galahad/FLT View Post
Then don't mention anyone else!
Er, I haven't!
StarEye: The Amiga has better platformers than the consoles do.

Me: No, the consoles have better platformers.

You: I don't care; 40 good platformers is enough anyway

Me: Not enough that the Amiga has better platformers than the consoles do.

You: Nobody said that at all!

You made a statement applying to every other poster in the thread, and a false one at that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Galahad/FLT View Post
I didn't state anything of the sort with regards to consoles having a better library of platformers or not, what I did state was that in the great scheme of things, I simply don't care.
Well, neither do I, if it makes you feel any better.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Galahad/FLT View Post
40 is more than enough derivatives for me, that consoles have 200 or 500 better platformers still doesn't alter that there are just simply more of the same thing, because lets face it, when it comes to originality and 'wow', well you're not going to get it in a platformer!
True for the most part, but there are those unique, original gems like Flashback and Exile. And don't forget Super Metroid, which is probably the best console platformer that I've ever played (though I still don't like it as much as Flashback).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Galahad/FLT View Post
Well thats good to know, and like I stated before, this is the Amigas strength, jack of all trades, master of some, if I want to play a flight sim, I won't be doing it on a SNES!
Yeah, Pilotwings is inferior to pretty much every Amiga flight simulator ever made, and I can't think of any other flight simulators on the SNES. Home computers have the kind of thoughtful, patience-rewarding games that the consoles really didn't give you back then (although that's started to change a bit in recent years).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Galahad/FLT View Post
You'd be surprised just how often the same game engines are reused over and over again with just minor tweaking for different things, but once the first game is out the door, the development time is halved for the next one, because they sure as hell do not recode it all from scratch. Actua Soccer, Actua Tennis, Actua Pool, Actua Ice Hockey, Actua Golf..... all used the same game engine, all completely different games.
Yeah, but they were all from the same company.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Galahad/FLT View Post
For someone thats not knocking the Amiga, you've done a bang up job for the last two pages proving otherwise!
And the third poster hasn't? To quote:

"No, you're not alone, the Amiga had a lot of crappy games, the ratio of good games/all games must be one of the smallest on any system...(i verified that, i tried ALL the amiga games on lemonAmiga (with the whdload/adf versions on Winuae), did the same for the Genesis (good genesis) , msx (tosec) and Mame, the ratio of good games/all games for the genesis/mame/msx is far greater than on the Amiga."

Which is basically exactly what I said regarding its library, but favoring the consoles even more. As for my claims that its hardware is inferior to that of the consoles (both of them), why don't you read the specs?

Amiga has:

4096-color palette

32 colors in low-resolution mode (64 with the addition of half-bright tints), 16 in medium- and high-resolution modes, 4096 in HAM mode (HAM mode does not move), the copper chip can add one color per scanline

Hardware support for scrolling (parallax layers can be added at the cost of color depth)

8 sprites

4 8-bit sample-based sound channels

Genesis has:

512-color palette

64 colors at all times

Hardware support for three layers of independent parallax scrolling

80 sprites

6 FM synthesized sound channels

SNES has:

32768-color palette

256 colors in Modes 3 and 4, 128 in Mode 7

Hardware support for transparencies

Hardware support for four layers of independent parallax scrolling

128 sprites

8 16-bit sample-based sound channels

And when I say that the Amiga doesn't quite measure up to one system converted from an arcade board and another designed six years later, I'm somehow an Amiga-hating console fanboy. Right...

Last edited by Dan Locke; 07 November 2009 at 07:53.
Dan Locke is offline  
Old 07 November 2009, 06:01   #168
switchblade
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: United States
Age: 30
Posts: 95
Quote:
Originally Posted by Galahad/FLT View Post
Had the Americans embraced their own machine, I think things would have been a lot different. For a patriotic lot, they sure loved the Japanese stuff!
I hate to break this to you, but we're not as nationalistic as you think we are. If that's the case, we wouldn't be embracing multi-cultural attitudes the way we are now. It applies to more than just video games, you know.

For example, ever wonder why Ford is so popular in Europe, but not exactly that much so in the U.S.?

Second of all, Commodore's marketing was a very good reason why the Amiga never managed to hit with the majority of U.S. consumers. Although for some odd reason, they managed to sell a lot of C64 units in America, and almost nearly took over IBM and Apple in the U.S. at one point.

But then again, that's also due to marketing. They did a better job selling the C64 in America than they did with the Amiga. I sure as hell don't remember any Amiga ads when I was a kid.
switchblade is offline  
Old 07 November 2009, 07:03   #169
8bitbubsy
Registered User

8bitbubsy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Norway
Age: 27
Posts: 1,252
Send a message via MSN to 8bitbubsy
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hungry Horace View Post
agreed.


just played Robocod for a decent stint for the first time in many many years, and have to say i think it still holds up as a really enjoyable game.
Aah, yes!
Robocod 2 (if you mean that one) is for sure a classic. All the funny stages, and places to explore. Robocod is one of the games I spent the most time with as a child.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Locke View Post
SNES has:

32768-color palette
256 colors in Modes 3 and 4, 128 in Mode 7
Hardware support for transparencies
Hardware support for four layers of independent parallax scrolling
128 sprites
8 16-bit sample-based sound channels
Don't forget to mention more about SPC700 (sound chips in SNES)! It was made in 1989 by Sony (yep, in fact).
The SNES' sound capabilites has hardware echo filtering, hardware surround, 8 bit 8 tap FIR... All mixed in stunning 32kHz.
Only 64kB of sound RAM though, but still...! If you think "lolz SNES sound sucks", then take a listen to the music in these games:
- Tales of Phantasia
- Chrono Trigger
- Secret of Mana
- Final Fantasy IV
- Final Fantasy V

Yeeeeah!


Galahad/FLT:
Wtf man... Make a decision.... First of, the SNES does have a huge library of games with wonderfully composed music - just as the Amiga had.
And when it comes to comparing sound quality, the SNES if for sure a winner. 64kB sound RAM doesn't meen it "suxx". You can let the SPC700 CPU itself stream new samples every now and then, and there are a lot of techniques. The SNES' sound has its own sound RAM, sound DSP and sound CPU. Yes, as you might have guessed, it works very well alone, indepedent of the CPU usage. Tales of Phantasia used a technique to overcome the RAM issue, and even had high-quality vocals (!) in its game.
When it comes to comparing the music itself, melody, progression, chords.. Now that's subjective! You're fooled by your own nostalgy, time to face the truth before it face you.
This discussion is getting very objective instead of subjective... Stop acting like retards, we have different opinions, because we're humans. We're all different.. I'm 19 and I still see that this is getting hilariously fanboyish. They're both good sounding, and SINCE WHEN did fewer sound channels (which means limitation) mean better composers..? That's nonsense...

Last edited by 8bitbubsy; 07 November 2009 at 07:45.
8bitbubsy is offline  
Old 07 November 2009, 07:03   #170
Dan Locke
Registered User
Dan Locke's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: USA
Posts: 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by switchblade View Post
For example, ever wonder why Ford is so popular in Europe, but not exactly that much so in the U.S.?
Because Ford of Europe has a much better development and marketing team than Ford of America? It's not like you can get a Mondeo or SportKa over here (although the new Fusion and Taurus are pretty awesome, especially considering the models that they replaced).

Quote:
Originally Posted by switchblade View Post
Second of all, Commodore's marketing was a very good reason why the Amiga never managed to hit with the majority of U.S. consumers. Although for some odd reason, they managed to sell a lot of C64 units in America, and almost nearly took over IBM and Apple in the U.S. at one point.
Commodore overtook the other manufacturers' sales (including Apple) because Jack Tramiel was much better at running the company, if only by the sheer force of his personality, than Irving Gould and his CEO-of-the-week ever were. His aggressive development schedule and lofty design goals were some of the main reasons that the C64 was so advanced for its time, though they're also the main reason that it wasn't as advanced as it could have been.

Quote:
Originally Posted by switchblade View Post
But then again, that's also due to marketing. They did a better job selling the C64 in America than they did with the Amiga. I sure as hell don't remember any Amiga ads when I was a kid.
There were a few, and they were horrible. To quote Jay Miner:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay Miner, the coolest guy ever
The advertisements that they did have were absolutely awful. Old men changing into babies and kids competing in race cars. It was ghastly. And then a full year with no ads at all. They lost dealers and worst of all they lost public awareness.
In On the Edge, another designer recalls an ad that involved a fetus on a stick.

Last edited by Dan Locke; 07 November 2009 at 07:20.
Dan Locke is offline  
Old 07 November 2009, 08:17   #171
TCD
Global Moderator

TCD's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Germany
Age: 39
Posts: 24,032
TCD is offline  
Old 07 November 2009, 11:43   #172
hitm4n
Registered User
hitm4n's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Lincoln, UK
Posts: 176


Yes, this is a single 16mill jpg. But the picture was compiled from images consisting of the colour counts quoted. Hows my artwork? Sorry its a little large.
hitm4n is offline  
Old 07 November 2009, 11:47   #173
Hungry Horace
Wipe-Out Enthusiast

Hungry Horace's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: #pspuae chatroom
Age: 36
Posts: 2,474
Dan Locke - do you ever just let people have a differing opinion to you? You have done this on LemonAmiga as well, and i really dont see what you are trying to gain? Stating your thoughts / opinions is one thing, arguing the toss over every little thing you dont see eye-to-eye with is quite another.



FYI i noticed in your Amiga specs above you missed off AGA completely because... ? you dont like it and dont consider it an amiga?


Also i'd like to say i agree with StarEye that games like Rainbow Islands, New Zealand Story, Bubble Bobble (and other similars) are all Amiga titles, since they are on the amiga. Discussing "original only" titles only is pretty pointless, given the amount of variation in the same title from platform-to-platform. It would also leave us with very few "Amiga" titles at all.


There are hundreds of other things here i would love to comment on, but as TCD has pointed out, the thread is so far off the rails now that there really isnt any point.


it was all very well summed up for me here;

Quote:
Originally Posted by Retro-Nerd
Sorry, no comment this time. It speaks for itself. This generalized phrase is ridiculous, and "Fanboys" is the first word i usually hear if somebody lacks good arguments.
Hungry Horace is offline  
Old 07 November 2009, 11:51   #174
StarEye
Zone Friend
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Norway
Age: 40
Posts: 984
Dan Locke, I appreciate you don't drag me into this, especially when you claim I said something I didn't.

To quote my full post:

Quote:
And how many platform games outside of Sonic and Mario series are so much better than the Amiga platformers? I keep hearing this, but I can't remember any really great platformers outside of these. And if anyone says Donkey Kong Country - that's one game that's really close to a typical Amiga platformer game.

Seriously, the Amiga platformers are more typical western or european type games. It really depends on what you like. I loved games like Chuck Rock 2 (gameplay was better than the first game), Super Frog, Giana Sisters, Parasol Stars (not a scrolling platformer, but still), Rainbow Islands, Soccer Kid, Yo! Joe!. These are all brilliant. And to those who say Super Frog is a bad game - have you ever played past the initial forest world? It's when you enter the castle and the indoor locations it's really picking up. Brilliant levels, great atmosphere. It's reminds me of Switchblade 2 and Bowser's castles in Mario (but without just going from left to right).
Where did I say the Amiga had better platformers?
StarEye is offline  
Old 07 November 2009, 12:17   #175
Retro-Nerd
Missile Command Champion

Retro-Nerd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Germany
Age: 45
Posts: 10,628
Here's an interesting read:


http://www.skytopia.com/games/cacg/cacg28_29.html
http://www.skytopia.com/games/cacg/cacg30_31.html

And yes, rough 80-90% of the SNES music sounds a bit "muffled" while the Amiga output is crystal clear. And what HH said: Where is the A1200 in this silly hardware comparison?

HQ voices in "Tales of Phantasia"? Sorry, not by a long shot. Though a great soundtrack.

OT, i know.
Retro-Nerd is offline  
Old 07 November 2009, 12:31   #176
8bitbubsy
Registered User

8bitbubsy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Norway
Age: 27
Posts: 1,252
Send a message via MSN to 8bitbubsy
Quote:
Originally Posted by Retro-Nerd
And yes, rough 80-90% of the SNES music sounds a bit "muffled" while the Amiga output is crystal clear.
Define "muffled"...

That's because of the echo filter, mainly. There are many crystal clear sounds, let me upload an example from raw SNES output: http://sm64.org/olav/snes.mp3
Can Amiga do this sound? Never. Ever. (Well, with another sound card it can) Not even with AHI on paula...
Well, paula can do 2 channel 14-bit sound.. But it still sounds a bit weird, and somehow higher-frequency filtered..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Retro-Nerd
HQ voices in "Tales of Phantasia"? Sorry, not by a long shot. Though a great soundtrack.
I meant high-quality for being SNES It's not like voices are high-quality on Amiga either.

Last edited by 8bitbubsy; 07 November 2009 at 12:37.
8bitbubsy is offline  
Old 07 November 2009, 12:34   #177
StarEye
Zone Friend
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Norway
Age: 40
Posts: 984
Quote:
Originally Posted by 8bitbubsy View Post
That's because of the echo filter, mainly. There are many crystal clear sounds, let me upload an example from raw SNES output: http://sm64.org/olav/snes.mp3
What game is that from?
StarEye is offline  
Old 07 November 2009, 12:34   #178
Hungry Horace
Wipe-Out Enthusiast

Hungry Horace's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: #pspuae chatroom
Age: 36
Posts: 2,474
Quote:
Originally Posted by 8bitbubsy View Post
Can Amiga do this sound? Never. Ever.
yes. go and watch the intro to onEscapee and you may realise the Amiga paula sound can do anything you need it to. It is simply down to the application / usage.
Hungry Horace is offline  
Old 07 November 2009, 12:38   #179
8bitbubsy
Registered User

8bitbubsy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Norway
Age: 27
Posts: 1,252
Send a message via MSN to 8bitbubsy
Quote:
Originally Posted by StarEye View Post
What game is that from?
Tales of Phantasia. A JAP-only game, so better get an SFC and learn Japanese.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hungry Horace View Post
yes. go and watch the intro to onEscapee and you may realise the Amiga paula sound can do anything you need it to. It is simply down to the application / usage.
The chip itself, maybe, but the Amiga hardware doesn't take 100% use of its capabilities... Imagine SPC700 with 1024kB memory... See?
Even though you can crunch up paula to over 50kHz, 12-bit 2 channel, it WILL sound a bit rubbish. I've played several 44kHz high-quality WAVs on my Amiga 1200 for testing. It sure is good for being such an old chip, but it's not anything special. Besides, we're pretty much discussing the game music, aren't we?
I'll take a look at onEscapee and see how it sounds. Will give honest report.

EDIT: Wow.. That's actually class!
How is that even possible? Well, it's Amiga CD - are you sure it's not different in the sound design somehow?

Last edited by 8bitbubsy; 07 November 2009 at 12:45.
8bitbubsy is offline  
Old 07 November 2009, 12:41   #180
TCD
Global Moderator

TCD's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Germany
Age: 39
Posts: 24,032
Quote:
Originally Posted by 8bitbubsy View Post
Tales of Phantasia. A JAP-only game, so better get an SFC and learn Japanese.
Or just grab the English translation : http://www.fantasyanime.com/legacy/top_downloads.htm
Still this thread was about platformers and not a sound penis-length comparison IIRC...
TCD is offline  
AdSense AdSense  
 


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
my (incomplete) list of Amiga PD platform games s2325 Retrogaming General Discussion 256 01 September 2017 17:25
Best Amiga Platform Games mancity support.Games 13 11 May 2012 20:34
Amiga games you want released on the DS or any other platform. seuden Amiga scene 17 06 February 2008 07:49
mighty! amiga! platform games Critter Retrogaming General Discussion 51 31 January 2004 17:21
Who are developing games for Amiga platform at the moment? oldpx Amiga scene 65 06 October 2002 17:41

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 05:29.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Page generated in 0.40292 seconds with 12 queries