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Old 04 November 2009, 22:07   #101
Adropac2
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Thing is i can understand why someone wouldn't like Mario for it's physics if they're more used to an even tighter easier control, but from a game design point, this is where it scores as it's not too hard or easy but a perfectly fair control system

Difficulty can be a factor too which can and does help form opinions

Indeed so much but my opinion is that opinions are very often wrong under the effects of influence

You're right though it can't be both and it isn't - wont stop people having opinions though

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Old 04 November 2009, 22:19   #102
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And while i do totally agree with the subjective thing ie the rule basis, if everybody were very poor gamers, would this basis then change to suit like what the general bar is now for it - it would have to i suppose

Stupid really but it is all based on one considered standard i guess just like our appreciation of anything is, and there isn't even a good or bad, but a measure
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Old 04 November 2009, 22:21   #103
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There are enough frustating scenes in Super Mario games too, caused due a NOT perfect game design, where you want to pull out your hair. It's always a POV/matter of the own gaming skills.
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Old 04 November 2009, 22:35   #104
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just to point out, i can play Mario quite competently, i just dont enjoy it.
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Old 04 November 2009, 22:44   #105
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Yeah i know what you mean

As for Mario being perfect, it's not, but as a whole it does excell

Mind you that doesn't mean i play it a whole lot either.If anything i found Super Mario Snes to be quite a cold experience.Brilliant game though and it's tough but perfectly challenging gameplay is what makes it so praise worthy

If i keep throwing the pad down then picking the pad back up, that's a good sign it's my lack of skill at the time of play.Plenty of lesser platformers i just turn off in disgust.Mario is hair pulling but it's normally down to the player if things go wrong and that's good design

I like games more like Harlequin when it comes to having fun on a platformer but i know they aren't genius like Mario

Mind you i mostly prefer Mario 64 anyway to any other Mario games as it's playground of endless fun
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Old 04 November 2009, 22:54   #106
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Yeah loads of people prefer Sonic over Mario though probably not as many that don't
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Old 05 November 2009, 00:34   #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Adropac2 View Post
Thing is there is a lot of rubbish on Snes as well but can you honestly find something comparable to Zelda, Contra3, Castlevania4, Parodius, Actraiser, Cybernator, Mystical Ninjas, Secret of Mana, Donkey Kong Country? come on surely not
I'm not sure if this is in reply to my post, so I apologise if not, but I was talking only about platformers.


Quote:
I had this same argument once before with a guy that reckoned Croc on PS1 to be just as good as Super Mario64 and that's absurd.It was clearly either his preference talking or that perhaps just looking at both titles does indeed show them to be seemingly the same
Now I would say that Croc is equally as BAD as Mario64. I really dislike all the 3D Mario games I have played because all of the great control features that I love are lost in the translation to 3D. I'm not a '2D or nothing' freak, but I really don't think platformers (as I see them) work well in 3D.
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Old 05 November 2009, 03:27   #108
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The thread starter has obviously not played Gods.

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Old 05 November 2009, 04:15   #109
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Originally Posted by Dastardly View Post
I'm not sure if this is in reply to my post, so I apologise if not, but I was talking only about platformers.

Yeah i got carried away there didn't i






Now I would say that Croc is equally as BAD as Mario64. I really dislike all the 3D Mario games I have played because all of the great control features that I love are lost in the translation to 3D. I'm not a '2D or nothing' freak, but I really don't think platformers (as I see them) work well in 3D.
I got a bit carried away and mentioned all genres when in fact the thread is just platformers

Yeah 3d platformers don't seem to work as well half the time but Mario despite quibbles with camera and once of course you truly master it, is an endless playground - the sequels i found to be quite lacking though.Very few games you can mess around in for hours upon hours like you can in Mario 64
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Old 05 November 2009, 04:24   #110
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Thing is where do you exactly draw this line

Someone for example may prefer the ST version of Turrican2 and while clearly it's technically inferior, it may be that the atmosphere is more enjoyable to them or that the ST sound and music is somehow better.In certain cases like this it's more obvious why but i think the particular Amiga vs Snes argument is also quite obvious here too

I prefer Supremacy over Civilization but this would be an example where this argument shouldn't even apply.Just about all 16 platformers though attempted to be the best and therefore stuck closely to a very similar template for most of the time - these can be compared and were

And anyway the basis of a game opinion is normally always because a person finds the game to be more enjoyable or not - it's rarely anything else especially when going by memory or indeed nostalgia

Last edited by Adropac2; 05 November 2009 at 04:31.
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Old 05 November 2009, 17:19   #111
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Put simply, the Amgia had bad games because the Amiga had bad developers. Look at this to see what I mean:

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Originally Posted by Bob Lindstron
In the hit-driven European marketplace, a game for the popular Commodore Amiga or Atari ST computer may sell 100,000 copies during its first month of release; "then it will be dead," says [Chris] Roberts. As a result, European designers favor arcade games that are fast to create and provide the maximum in "quick, instant gratification."
In other words, the European developers didn't treat games like games; they treated them like cheap, almost disposable commodities to be sold for a quick buck. Compare them to the American and Japanese console developers, who knew that a well-made game would sell for longer than a month, and accordingly put much more effort into making their games fun and good-looking. On the Amiga, you have gobs of ugly Atari ST ports full of cheap deaths; on the consoles (especially the Genesis), the games are of a much higher quality (even Bubsy the Bobcat, which is pretty terrible for a console game, is better than 80% of the Amiga's platformer library).

Shame, really. It's especially telling that I have far more Genesis and SNES games on my computer than Amiga games, despite the fact that the Amiga had more games developed for it.

Last edited by Dan Locke; 05 November 2009 at 19:38.
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Old 06 November 2009, 11:34   #112
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There are many great platformers on amiga (mentioned many times in this topic) but to be honest - I've seen also many good platformers on consoles especially SMD and SNES (if we compare only 16 bit and 32 bit machines). Puggsy, Lion King for example a little better on Megadrive than on amiga.

One thing I always like on amiga - music. Amiga versions of music are almost always better than any console from that time.
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Old 06 November 2009, 11:39   #113
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This whole thread
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Old 06 November 2009, 11:41   #114
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Well... maybe

Generally I think console versions are mostly better that computer versions.
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Old 06 November 2009, 12:05   #115
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i thought first level of total recall was pretty good once you figured out the point of the game. or maybe amiga had so few platformers i can't tell what is good ...
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Old 06 November 2009, 12:24   #116
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...or maybe amiga had so few platformers i can't tell what is good ...
http://hol.abime.net/hol_search.php?N_ref_category=16 (always gives me a headache when a screenshot hint is 'category : platform' )
Of course most of them are mediocre (if not worse), but there are also quite some good ones among them (mentioned in this very thread ).
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Old 06 November 2009, 13:05   #117
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Locke View Post
Put simply, the Amgia had bad games because the Amiga had bad developers. Look at this to see what I mean:



In other words, the European developers didn't treat games like games; they treated them like cheap, almost disposable commodities to be sold for a quick buck. Compare them to the American and Japanese console developers, who knew that a well-made game would sell for longer than a month, and accordingly put much more effort into making their games fun and good-looking. On the Amiga, you have gobs of ugly Atari ST ports full of cheap deaths; on the consoles (especially the Genesis), the games are of a much higher quality (even Bubsy the Bobcat, which is pretty terrible for a console game, is better than 80% of the Amiga's platformer library).

Shame, really. It's especially telling that I have far more Genesis and SNES games on my computer than Amiga games, despite the fact that the Amiga had more games developed for it.
Developing for Genesis and SNES was infinetly more expensive than developing for Amiga. For a start, publishers had to pay Sega and Nintendo in advance for cartridges to be made, so they had significantly bigger investments right from the off.

Had the Americans embraced their own machine, I think things would have been a lot different. For a patriotic lot, they sure loved the Japanese stuff!

It wasn't just because a game only sold 100,000 copies either, game development on Amiga was quicker, therefore the shelflife of a game was kinda determined on what was next around the corner to be released.

Clearly if you think Bubsy is better than most Amiga platformers, you really haven't seen most Amiga platformers.

Yes the Amiga had bad developers, but the SNES and Genesis were not exactly brimming with greatness at times, but agreed, Tiertex on the Amiga would never have been allowed to get away with the same shit on Genesis or SNES.

Generally the specific Amiga titles are incredibly strong, and I think you need to broaden your Amiga games horizons.

Try looking through HOL and selecting the option of Amiga Original, theres a world out there buddy
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Old 06 November 2009, 17:29   #118
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Yup it's definitely the case that only a small percentage of the platformers on Snes were actually any good

While it was they had what i would consider the finest of platform games in Mario, such a lot of the other stuff was just as bad as the bad stuff Amiga got - mostly

Atmosphere plays a big part in if i warm to a game and to be fair i think it's the reason why i tend to enjoy gaming more on Amiga.Direct comparisons aren't always favourable or really entirely fair and anyway it's not like we didn't have the time of our lives playing all these Amiga games

Try playing Putty Squad to see how souless console games can be

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Old 06 November 2009, 17:37   #119
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Snes Putty Squad that is
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Old 06 November 2009, 18:25   #120
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And how many platform games outside of Sonic and Mario series are so much better than the Amiga platformers? I keep hearing this, but I can't remember any really great platformers outside of these. And if anyone says Donkey Kong Country - that's one game that's really close to a typical Amiga platformer game.

Seriously, the Amiga platformers are more typical western or european type games. It really depends on what you like. I loved games like Chuck Rock 2 (gameplay was better than the first game), Super Frog, Giana Sisters, Parasol Stars (not a scrolling platformer, but still), Rainbow Islands, Soccer Kid, Yo! Joe!. These are all brilliant. And to those who say Super Frog is a bad game - have you ever played past the initial forest world? It's when you enter the castle and the indoor locations it's really picking up. Brilliant levels, great atmosphere. It's reminds me of Switchblade 2 and Bowser's castles in Mario (but without just going from left to right).
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