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Old 27 September 2013, 08:48   #481
john1979
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Codetapper View Post
Based on this video of [ Show youtube player ], I would say that:

1. The Amiga music is infinitely better than the Megadrive. How you can think otherwise is beyond me. It also sounds quite tinny to me.
"Infintiely"?! And I get accused of bold claims!

It's that particular video. I have the music recorded directly from my own Model 1 MD (later versions of the MD sound chip make everything sound more muffled) and it sounds a lot bassier and clearer than that. I can upload it all somewhere if anyone wants.

This is a better recording [ Show youtube player ]
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Old 27 September 2013, 09:56   #482
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Originally Posted by john1979 View Post
Since debating with someone who will just continuously twist my words to suit is pretty pointless I'll make this my last reply. It's tedious to have to point out every strawman argument someone mounts, and makes for a shitty pointless debate.



Err no, watch that video I posted. The differences in foreground quality are plainly obvious.

That's nice for you and maybe a few others, not so nice for the vast majority that had 1 button joysticks.

I have played Turrican 3 with 2 buttons on WHDload and it still doesn't feel as good as the control system in MT.

Strawman. I did post a good list of reasons in another post as to why Superfrog is not a great game. You appear to have ignored those for your own convenience.

"Pretty much" what does that mean? I just went over my list, I don't seem to have "pretty much" anything. Again you make up an argument so you can knock it down. I list lots of reasons why those games suck. I can list more.

Oh but it does. The central character can add a lot to a game. A lot of kids really liked Mario, are you telling me it didn't help sales?

Contradicting your own point above. And look at how Sonic sold. For a game that was really repetitive it sold buckets. The cool main character had plenty to do with that.

The graphics look okay, but the playability looks bad. I never said that graphics alone maketh a game. You seem to have put those words in my mouth. What a surprise...

It's the whole package that counts. Graphics, playability. The whole thing. Now imagine how bad this game could get with the current playability and really bad graphics. It would be getting less than the 6.52 score it's currently got on lemon.

Nice strawman. Yet again you twist my words to suit your argument.

The point was that reviewers of games take into account graphics and other factors other than just playability. Did I not mention that playability is the most important factor still? Yes I did. Did you choose to ignore that? Yes you did.

So they decided not to improve the SFX on the Amiga because they were scared of upsetting the user base with better SFX? I dunno about that one, seems unlikely.

A lot of Megadrive music is quite poor. I don't know where you get tinny from. Most complaints of MD sound is that it is muffled (Revenge of Shinobi for instance).

Owning both an Amiga and an MD back then made comparing the two games on the same system very easy. It was clear the MD had the better music in that particular game.

What is this "the same sounding instruments time and time again"?

I did, the title music of Mega Turrican on the Megadrive.

That's strange, considering I just played through Benefactor, that has neither parallax or a particularly memorable character, and really enjoyed it.

You've established nothing. In only one game I listed did I mention the main character as a factor. Superfrog has LOTS more wrong with it than the poor background GFX, which I did point out, and in three games in my list I mentioned poor background GFX as factors along side other playability issues.

Your post started with an Ad Hominen, then mounted strawman after strawman. How poor.
Sigh.

Firstly, you clearly don't know what an ad hominem is nor a straw man, and it amuses me that you would highlight that deficiency by repeating it throughout your response.

If I was guilty of an ad hominem attack on you, I would have written something along the lines of "you are completely wrong because you are a moron", and that would pretty much been it.

An ad hominem attack is where you focus on the person making the argument, not the argument they are presenting, and quite clearly that isn't the case as I've composed a step by step rebuttal of your post.

If your complaint is over my pointing out that your verbiage is excessively over the top when you present your argument, that's not an ad hominem attack on you, its an observation of a truth, but also, that observation was NOT used to write off your whole argument as evidenced by my step by step rebuttal.

Sadly then, we move onto another area you don't know about either, the straw man.

My points have been made in direct response to something you said, with regards Super frog, I made reference to the list of 5-6 listed games you wrote and put brief descriptions next to them as to why you couldn't play them.

I don't need to manufacture non existant debating points with you.

As for you not getting the whole SFX point, its called continuity, the same SFX were used as they are quintessentially Turrican SFX, and are instantly recognisable to those who have played the other two in the series.

Could the Amiga have used more dynamic sounds? Of course, that doesn't mean that they should.

As fr you using YouTube as your references, probably not the best idea when their compression and video format screws up many a game.

But again, we simply come back to your use of verbiage with "much better" and "tons better", you probably wouldn't have needed to feel so defensive had you not opted to be so wildly inaccurate with your claims.

As for your rather bold assertion about my debate with Dan Locke, clearly you didn't read very far, quite a few other people were of a similar mind to me, and at one point, the guy did finally concede a rather big point in the debate, which made much of the discussion moot.

Anyway, enough about all that, this topic is far too interesting to allow it to be locked, and as you've stated that was your last response to me in this thread, seems the matter is now closed.
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Old 27 September 2013, 10:43   #483
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Amiga Turrican3 has better music then the MD version of Mega Turrican!
It's as simple as that and i think you will find 99% of people will agree with this!

That's unless cheesy sounding synth music that imitates the real thing(amiga) is your thing!

So you either go with the better looking MD version, or the better sounding Amiga version, personally i would rather play the Amiga version then the MD version simply because of the amazing Amiga music.

And in the 90's it wasn't uncommon for people to use a MD pad on the amiga, making the controls almost identical in both versions.

If you were still using 1 button joysticks on the amiga in the 90's, then you only have yourself to blame as there were quite a few games that could use a 2nd button, and MD pads were very common and easy to get back then.
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Old 27 September 2013, 10:57   #484
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The Mega Turrican music is based on (or even identical with) the Amiga music: http://www.4players.de/4players.php/...Huelsbeck.html
So even if the game was designed with the MegaDrive/Genesis in mind, the music wasn't.
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Old 27 September 2013, 11:32   #485
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It seems most people think Turrican 3 sounds better coming out of the Amiga than the Megadrive and I`m also one of them, to re-address the balance somewhat I think the Megadrive has the best "beat em up" soundtrack of all time in Streets Of Rage 2, it sounds amazing and unlike 90% of other MD soundtracks. Not to say Amiga doesn't have any decent music for beat 'em ups, it does, but nothing in the same league.
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Old 27 September 2013, 11:34   #486
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This thread is hilarious, people get worked up about such bazaar things.

Keep it up guys!! great reading.....

Lets throw this in to mix,

I think all ST platform games were 1000% superior to any Amiga platformer

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I retract that last comment I went too far sorry

Last edited by Rob 1; 27 September 2013 at 11:40. Reason: Back track, Dig up!!
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Old 27 September 2013, 11:45   #487
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Quote:
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I think all ST platform games were 1000% superior to any Amiga platformer
There goes the neighbourhood!
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Old 27 September 2013, 11:47   #488
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This thread is hilarious, people get worked up about such bazaar things.
"Bazaar"? "BAZAAR"??? It's bizarre for fucks sake!

*storms off*





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Old 27 September 2013, 11:48   #489
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Comparing graphics between T3 versions:

The Megadrive sprite comes directly from a ripped spritesheet. The Amiga sprite is cut out of a screenshot (in PNG format) which is why there is some rubbish on the end of the gun. But you can see quite easily that the Amiga version has been colour reduced. Grey has been used as green highlight. Brown has been used as highlighting on the red parts. All the colours have been toned down slightly so that different colours can be used as highlights: the green is slightly more grey, the brown is slightly less orange, the red is slightly more brownish.

I can do the same with some background graphics:

Again, if you can't see the difference with them placed side by side I think you need your eyes testing... the Amiga version has the highlight shade of purple replaced by a shade of brown, while the dark purple has become grey. The darker shade of blue has had to become a green for use on the sprites, however this has allowed them to use green on the background graphics. The lamps on the blocks at the bottom have become really muddy-looking.

Note that the screenshot from the MD version seems to have had some clever upscaling algorithm performed on it but this shouldn't have affected the colours.

Personally, I think it could have been done better.
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Old 27 September 2013, 12:15   #490
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"Bazaar"? "BAZAAR"??? It's bizarre for fucks sake!

*storms off*






Bloody spell check!
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Old 27 September 2013, 13:31   #491
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On the Turrican subject-

Amiga Turrican3 Title Music-
[ Show youtube player ]

Vs

Megadrive Mega Turrican Title Music-
[ Show youtube player ]

I'm simply trying to make a point about the music, as good as it is on the MD, can anyone honestly say the MD sounds better here?
Because i'm not hearing that!

The Amiga sounds like a Real Band with it's clean samples, While the Megadrive sounds like Synth Generated Euro Pop on a Casio Keyboard!

I'd take the Amiga+Huelsbeck over some parallax backdrops anyday!
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Old 27 September 2013, 13:35   #492
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It may be emulator or recording fault or it's Mega Drive model 2 (or even brasilian 3).
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Old 27 September 2013, 15:10   #493
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Of course Turrican 3 sounds better than Mega Turrican. The MD has no chance against a good designed TFMX 7-voice tune. Hülsbeck gave his best to push the MD soundchip to the limit though. It has nothing to do with console revisions or emulator recordings. I have both games for real hardware. The real advantages of Mega Turrican over Turrican 3 are the controls/jump mechanics (feels smoother) and the third button for the plasma rope.

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Old 27 September 2013, 15:28   #494
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There is and interesting interview of several amiga devs in this issue of the One on pages 22 to 27

http://amr.abime.net/issue_335_pages

Quote:
Jon Hare : To be honest it's a real problem writing a game first on the Amiga because that's the version you can sell most easily and then having it converted onto the SNES and knowing that's it going to be endlessly compromised.

Archer McLean : Absolutely

The One : Did you have to compromise any of your Amiga stuff for consoles conversions ?

Eric Matthews : No. It just takes a lot longer. If we write a game that take the full potential of the Amiga, it's f***ing difficult to get it onto the SNES

Archer McLean : but do you limit yourself to writing within the restrictions of the MegaDrive and the SNES first and then work up to the Amiga ?

Jon Hare : That's what you have to do.
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Old 27 September 2013, 17:20   #495
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Originally Posted by Mrs Beanbag View Post
Personally, I think it could have been done better.
Which could have been done better?
I prefer the Amiga ones in your examples.. I like the grays and browns a bit better than the purples and greens for shading..

Is that what you were saying, that the Megadrive could have been done a bit better?

Hard to say that if you are (either way); they are really close..

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Old 27 September 2013, 18:00   #496
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Which could have been done better?
I prefer the Amiga ones in your examples.. I like the grays and browns a bit better than the purples and greens for shading..
The Megadrive graphics are the original. The Amiga graphics are a colour-reduced version. The colour-reduction process could have been done better.

Obviously preferences are subjective I find your preference quite surprising, to be honest. Using greys and browns as shades of other colours is something you sometimes have to do to work within a system's limitations. It's not generally done on purpose to make things look better. It certainly doesn't make graphics look more realistic, because that's just not how light works.
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Old 27 September 2013, 18:21   #497
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Obviously preferences are subjective I find your preference quite surprising, to be honest. .
You and my wife agree about my color preferences..
She believes I can only differentiate between 8 colors....

And yet, she'll still ask me if a certain item of clothing looks nice... I don't get it..

:-)

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Old 27 September 2013, 18:25   #498
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Originally Posted by sokolovic View Post
There is and interesting interview of several amiga devs in this issue of the One on pages 22 to 27
Well I'd like to know exactly what limitations of the Megadrive and SNES they were complaining about. I, for one, would love to have more hardware sprites than I knew what to do with that can all be set to use different palettes.

Quote:
Eric Matthews : No. It just takes a lot longer. If we write a game that take the full potential of the Amiga, it's f***ing difficult to get it onto the SNES
This is true, I suppose, but then the reverse is true as well. The SNES had hardware sprite rotation and scaling, for one thing.
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Old 27 September 2013, 18:47   #499
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Of course Turrican 3 sounds better than Mega Turrican. The MD has no chance against a good designed TFMX 7-voice tune.
Well that's one thing for the main theme/credits music, rather another for the in-game music, where we don't have enough spare CPU for 7-voice and have to put up with 4 including sound effects. I do wonder how the 68020 copes with this though, and whether the A1200 could manage maybe 6 channel music during the game and 1 channel reserved for sound effects.
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Old 27 September 2013, 19:26   #500
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Well that's one thing for the main theme/credits music, rather another for the in-game music, where we don't have enough spare CPU for 7-voice and have to put up with 4 including sound effects.
Exactly, and thats the reason why most comparison videos on youtube only use in-game music to show the superiority of Mega Turrican.
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