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Old 12 September 2013, 10:13   #321
switchblade
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Goddamn...

Nice to know that my one loaded question leads to 16 bloody pages of arguments.

But if it's all leads to better civilized discourse, then I'm all for it!

And I still stand by my original statement of Superfrog. It still sucks. The more I play it, the more I despise it.
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Old 12 September 2013, 11:00   #322
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Why go as far as despise it? Its not great but its not terrible either. It has nice tunes and fun colorful graphics, the response to input is quite snappy and the collision detection is fair - things that make a decent platformer in stead of a dire one.

The thing that it lacks for me is diversity in gameplay so it doesn't hold my interest for longer periods of time. That's about all I have to complain about it.

Was Creatures ever mentioned in this long thread? I love that game. Creatures, Soccer Kid, Chuck Rock - all games that I replayed many times.
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Old 12 September 2013, 12:57   #323
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Why go as far as despise it? Its not great but its not terrible either. It has nice tunes and fun colorful graphics, the response to input is quite snappy and the collision detection is fair - things that make a decent platformer in stead of a dire one.

The thing that it lacks for me is diversity in gameplay so it doesn't hold my interest for longer periods of time. That's about all I have to complain about it.

Was Creatures ever mentioned in this long thread? I love that game. Creatures, Soccer Kid, Chuck Rock - all games that I replayed many times.
Okay, so maybe "despise" wasn't the best way to describe it. The only thing I agree with you about is the fact that the game does next to nothing in standing out among other platformers out there. It's not the best and it's not the worst. It's just average at most. On that technicality, it's just horribly bland... which is why I don't like it. Couple with the fact that a lot of people bring up Superfrog as a standout platformer amongst the rest, and you'll have people getting really curious about it.

Maybe that's the reason, maybe it isn't. Either way, it doesn't really matter anymore.
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Old 12 September 2013, 14:23   #324
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I always preferred platform games on the Amiga for the most part as apposed to the console ones. I think it's accurate to say the concentration of "good" platform games was far lesser on the Amiga but what it lacked in quantity it made up in quality.

The main issue I do have with Amiga games in general is the almost sadistic difficulty curves that many have, I think both American and Japanese markets recognized this earlier on and made more of a conscious effort to produce less irritating gaming experiences. I saw this trend slowly reversing towards the end of the Amiga's life cycle but we all know what happened next...

Oh and just my thoughts on Zool. Zool was never a bad game, the hype machine that marketed it just ended up killing it.

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Old 12 September 2013, 17:48   #325
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And I still stand by my original statement of Superfrog. It still sucks. The more I play it, the more I despise it.
I've always disliked Superfrog. It's just so clinically cold and lifeless. Yes it has lovely scrolling and colourful graphics, but it's dead behind the eyes.
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Old 12 September 2013, 17:50   #326
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Maybe, but the gameplay is fully intact. Superfrog is a good platformer for that reason.
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Old 12 September 2013, 18:31   #327
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I think most people would agree that Amiga wasn't home to the very best examples of platformers but they're still fun if you're not expecting too much. Mostly simple yet solid efforts and Superfrog does at least fit that- not a fan though personally. That said, I think it comes down to how these games feel which is why I tend to game on the Amiga most of the time that I play older games
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Old 12 September 2013, 18:42   #328
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Hudson Hawk is a great, often overlooked Amiga platformer. Quite a tough game.
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Old 13 September 2013, 00:32   #329
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These boss battles in Deliverance may be impressive even today and it's A500 game: [ Show youtube player ]
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Old 13 September 2013, 12:43   #330
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Couple with the fact that a lot of people bring up Superfrog as a standout platformer amongst the rest, and you'll have people getting really curious about it.
I don't really get that either if you put Superfrog in the big pool of platformers across all... uh... platforms. But on the Amiga it did stand out a little. I mean what is this long thread about

Me, I was poisoned by Mario, Ducktales (NES) and Sonic so Superfrog did indeed not do much for me.
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Old 13 September 2013, 13:16   #331
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Goddamn...

Nice to know that my one loaded question leads to 16 bloody pages of arguments.

But if it's all leads to better civilized discourse, then I'm all for it!

And I still stand by my original statement of Superfrog. It still sucks. The more I play it, the more I despise it.

Haha,

so you are saying that you keep going back to it
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Old 13 September 2013, 13:34   #332
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I think even the good Amiga games have a sort of "competent amateur" look and feel to them. Even if they play quite well, there's often something lacking in the presentation. One of the things is the lack of a coherent world. They designed a game, but they didn't design a universe. Zool starts off on a giant cake, and there's no explanation why. It's like a committee got round a table and brainstormed "themes for platform game levels". They didn't start with an overarching concept of what it was about or where it was set. They just made a platform game.

In fact look it up on Wikipedia, the entire plot section reads:

Quote:
Zool is a gremlin "Ninja of the Nth Dimension" who is forced to land on Earth. In order to gain ninja ranking he has to pass six lands.
That's it. The whole plot is basically "there are six different levels".

I think this kind of lack of vision was endemic on the Amiga games scene.
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Old 13 September 2013, 18:54   #333
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Zool starts off on a giant cake, and there's no explanation why.


I agree, Amiga games often show a lack of a good, compelling story and background, but I think it's also a cultural thing, not specifically related to Amiga.

The Japanese are to me the masters of game design, and they manage to make relatively simple stories into something interesting and captivating. Some great examples are New Zealand Story, Legend of Zelda, Super Mario Brothers, and Pang!

Here in Europe it seems there was a trend in focusing on technical details, and I think it made other aspects of the game suffer. When developers prioritized framerates and getting more and cooler looking stuff happening on the screen, their games invariably lost charm and turned into interactive curiosities of sorts.
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Old 13 September 2013, 20:37   #334
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While I agree to some extent with the last couple of comments, I think Amiga games in general are far quicker to get into with less fluff to sit through.

There seemed to be a period where games went through a tedious "make the player sit through screens and screens of utter bollocks" before starting the game. I'm talking about the ones where you hit fire to start, are forced to some kind of options screen to tweak things. Hit fire again and a big map appears. You then have to move your character to where you want to go. Hit fire again. Queue "tedious cut-screen of 2 characters in a small box in the middle of the screen talking to each other while the game types one character at a time into speech bubbles". Hit fire and you skip that dialogue, and brings up the next one. After what seems like several minutes you finally get to play the game. NES seemed rampant with this kind of crappy intro/map stuff.

Compare that with Chuck Rock or Superfrog where you hit fire to start and bam, you're pretty much into the game (possibly a loading screen while the game loads) and it makes for a much more enjoyable experience when you're after a quick gaming hit!
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Old 13 September 2013, 21:51   #335
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Consoles also had their share of polished yet fairly uninspiring efforts too of course. A few amazing ones like Mario etc and generally the standard was higher regarding even the average ones, but the majority of platformers were in truth a bit uninspiring on both formats most of the time
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Old 13 September 2013, 23:53   #336
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That's it. The whole plot is basically "there are six different levels".
So, if the manual had said:
Zool is a gremlin "Ninja of the Nth Dimension" who is forced to land on Earth. In order to gain ninja ranking he has to pass six lands, because a ranked Ninja can marry!

.. then it would have been a much better game?

I'm not sure I buy that..
I think a plot in a platformer, as in some other genres, is frosting on the cake (Perhaps Zool's subtext! :-).
You don't need it. Yes, it can make a game better. But a fun game can be fun without a good plot, and a good plot won't save a bad game.

desiv
p.s. To make the plot more believable, you'd throw in some cutscenes between levels showing Zool and his betrothed... At the end of each cutscene, she's dragged away by an evil smirking "ranked" Ninja!!!!
p.p.s. Actually, you may have something.... I think I want to play that game now... ;-)

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Old 14 September 2013, 00:05   #337
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A background story and ingame cutscenes give you extra motivation to play a game (or put you off that is...), but they don't really change the quality of a game. That goes for gameplay and presentation. Mario never had a great background or ingame story, but what it had is/was variety. Some people won't list Turrican as a platformer, but one thing the game did right was to encourage exploration and enjoying the levels. It wasn't all about finishing the game, but rather searching for more of the actual game. I think that's what makes a good platformer (besides good controls, scrolling and a pleasant presentation). There are a lot ways to 'weight' games, but a background story alone (like desiv said) won't make a game better. It'll add up nicely to an overall deeper gameplay than just 'collect x of y per level' gameplay though.
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Old 14 September 2013, 00:11   #338
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Zool is the sacred cow of the Amiga :-) Zool needed two things to elevate it from an okay game to a great game in my opinion. 1. Music + SFX (together). 2. Less slowdown. That for me would have made it great, it's amazing how much the lack of a great soundtrack can starve a game of atmosphere. The complete opposite of this for me would be Chuck Rock II. Music and SFX, excellent GFX and tight controls.
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Old 14 September 2013, 00:19   #339
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Zool 1+2 needed a better color palette/graphics. Both Chupa Chups "promotional" games looks butt ugly. Never cared to play through it. Besides that it was never a good Sonic clone.
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Old 14 September 2013, 00:25   #340
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The GFX of Zool never really bothered me, didn't think they were bad or particularly great either, just meh I suppose. The Sonic clone comparison will for ever haunt it to it's grave thanks to the hype that killed it.
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