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Old 07 December 2009, 20:05   #221
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When people say console-wannabes, do you mean games that are not Sonic or Mario on the Amiga? 'Cause I keep hearing about all those great platformers on the consoles, but where are they?
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Old 07 December 2009, 21:03   #222
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Megaman is quite nice and Mickey Mania is also really fun to play. Oh and Earthworm Jim of course.
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Old 07 December 2009, 21:08   #223
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I hope there's more than that, 'cause that's not really convincing me that the consoles are so much better at platformers than the Amiga. None of those are any better than the best Amiga platformers.
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Old 07 December 2009, 23:28   #224
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StarEye View Post
When people say console-wannabes, do you mean games that are not Sonic or Mario on the Amiga?
I mean games that imitated the general style of console platformers - you know, colorful graphics, multidirectional scrolling, non-linear level design, etc.

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'Cause I keep hearing about all those great platformers on the consoles, but where are they?
I posted a rather long list a few pages back covering Genesis platformers. On the SNES you have gems like Super Metroid, Super Castlevania, Umihara Kawase, ActRaiser, Donkey Kong Country, and many, many others. Why don't you get an SNES emulator, browse through the GameFAQs or Mobygames database, and look for some yourself? I did, and I also scoured LemonAmiga, Lemon64, World of Spectrum, and many other system-specific databases in search of good retro games to emulate.

As an emulation enthusiast who has played a multitude of platformers on myriad systems from every generation, I know firsthand that the SNES and Genesis have loads of excellent platformers and that the Amiga, while hosting quite a few classics of its own (Lionheart and Flashback especially), really doesn't have the advantage here - the consoles have a very noticeably higher standard of gameplay depth, level design, and general polish; you'd never get away with releasing something like Beavers or Magic Boy on the Genesis, and even that system's port of Shadow of the Beast II is ridiculed for its ghastly design by the Genesis fandom.

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Old 07 December 2009, 23:35   #225
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I mean games that imitated the general style of console platformers - you know, colorful graphics, multidirectional scrolling, non-linear level design, etc.
non-linear level design... hmm. Most console platformers follow the same 'left-to-right' Mario style. Not sure I get what you mean there.
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Old 08 December 2009, 00:44   #226
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non-linear level design... hmm. Most console platformers follow the same 'left-to-right' Mario style. Not sure I get what you mean there.
No, most console platformers follow the same "lots of paths that branch off of the main course through the level, leading to secret areas, extra pickups, and other goodies" Sonic style. Why don't you play a few? Or are you talking about the NES when you say "console"?
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Old 08 December 2009, 00:53   #227
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Why don't you play a few?
I actually played quite a few and I don't see what's so special about that. Maybe you haven't played enough Amiga platformers to know that it isn't that non-linear to have seperate routes and secrets in a level?
Btw : Most is also quite exaggerated given the number of mediocre platformers for the MegaDrive, SNES or PC Engine.

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Old 08 December 2009, 02:48   #228
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Originally Posted by TheCyberDruid View Post
I actually played quite a few and I don't see what's so special about that. Maybe you haven't played enough Amiga platformers to know that it isn't that non-linear to have seperate routes and secrets in a level?
I've played loads of them. You're right - it isn't very non-linear as there's still a set beginning and a set end. But it's a far cry from "'left-to-right' Mario style".

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Btw : Most is also quite exaggerated given the number of mediocre platformers for the MegaDrive, SNES or PC Engine.
Quality has nothing to do with structure. I think that Zool 2 is mediocre and it's loaded with secret areas and goodies to collect - which is the structure of most 16-bit console platformers. Even Awesome Possum, one of the worst games ever, had that structure.
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Old 08 December 2009, 09:18   #229
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Shadow of the Beast II isn't a very good game on the Amiga either, so that doesn't prove anything. But I'm sure Superfrog would do quite well. Chuck Rock II is colorful, has great gameplay, level-design and is equally as linear as many console games. Music is also wonderfull. Flashback isn't really a platformer. Prince of Persia is excellent for its platforming and puzzles. Donkey Kong Country is seriously an extremely linear tech-demo, but because of it's groundbreaking graphics it's considered a better game than it deserves. Super Metroid I haven't tried, but I've played some of Super Castlevania. Good game, but still not really any better than the best the Amiga has.

The issue here, I think, is that a lot of the platformers you're talking about (give or take a couple) are based on a japanese platforming style. A lot of their games incorporated typical RPG elements, which isn't too strange considering how big rpgs were in Japan at the time. What I see is a clear difference between western style platformers and japanese style platformers. I grew up with both, and I really didn't envy the consoles at all back then. I found Sonic quite interesting, but not much else.

The thing is, all consoles have bad examples of platformers. Comparing the worst platformers on the Amiga to the best on the SNES is unfair, and vice versa of course. The number of great games on the Amiga might be smaller, but the way people are talking about it, it's like the Amiga is a crappy machine for platformers. The console fanboyism seems to have grown to great heights the last decade, and suddenly decided the Amiga was a crappy system. The snobbery is all over the place now. I just find that disgustingly juvenile and quite frankly ignorant. I keep reading how Superfrog is supposedly a bad platformer, but I've never seen anyone actually explain why. The first forest world isn't so good, but once you get inside and there is more emphasis on the level-design than just a big world with coins spread around, it's actually fantastic. If you hate on Superfrog, you better have played past the forest world, 'cause it's when you get to the castle it starts to shine.

Here are a few platformers that I think are close to or as good as those you mentioned:

Superfrog
Chuck Rock II
Leander
Ruff'n'Tumble
Fire'n'Ice
Lionheart
Arabian Nights
GODS
Magic Pockets
Yo! Joe!
The First Samurai
Turrican 1,2,3
Soccer Kid
Harlequin
James Pond 2,3
Jim Power
The Lost Vikings
Nicky Boom 1,2
Parasol Stars
Prince of Persia
The Viking Child
Venus the Flytrap
Switchblade 1,2

etc

Sure, it's a matter of taste. But there's no factual reasons why these games are any worse than the console games. They're just different. What is universally acclaimed isn't always the best.

What I do envy the console gamers though, are the side scrolling beat'em ups. THAT was a genre badly represented on the Amiga. SEGA had the great Streets of Rage series, and Nintendo and SEGA had the best ports of arcade games like Final Fight and Golden Axe (the Amiga version was good, but we only got the first one). VS fighters were just as badly represented, with Mortal Kombat being the best arcade ports, and Shadow Fighter and Fightin' Spirit the best Amiga-only games - both of which were no match for the Street Fighter ports on the SNES.

So, some genres are better, some are worse and some are rather equal. I'd say platformers are rather equal, if you're not fanatically into Mario or Sonic.
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Old 08 December 2009, 11:18   #230
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Locke View Post
I've played loads of them. You're right - it isn't very non-linear as there's still a set beginning and a set end. But it's a far cry from "'left-to-right' Mario style".
Hmm, not really. Mario also has secrets and you can take (slightly) different routes through the level. It was more the fact that most console platformers play very much alike (which isn't that bad), but in my opinion it makes them mediocre.

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Quality has nothing to do with structure. I think that Zool 2 is mediocre and it's loaded with secret areas and goodies to collect - which is the structure of most 16-bit console platformers. Even Awesome Possum, one of the worst games ever, had that structure.
Thought that was an argument for console platformers. I agree that a good platformer isn't about the structure, graphics or sound. I have a weak spot for (mild) innovation and I find that on every console/computer, but really not very often.
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Old 08 December 2009, 21:53   #231
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I think the media generally considered that Amiga platformers didn't hold up that well and not just console owners - i often found myself playing plaftormers on console over Amiga and my machine of choice was always the Amiga.I still enjoyed very much some platformers on Amiga but apart from their always gorgeous atmosphere, they were behind
the best of what consoles had - even though not on console platformers were amazing either

The argument used often is that if you look at what Amiga platformers did, then they were just as good.But really to me that's not a winning argument

You look at what most Amiga platformers do and on the face of it they're fine and don't do too much in the way of offending - they do after all seem to offer exactly what you also see on console.The trouble is you could apply that argument to both the best and worst versions of anything as well and not have a winner, even though there clearly would be one

Given a choice - and by this i mean put platformers from all machines in front of anyone that would have yet to play any of them, and i think most would choose Snes or Megadrive games first.I think this would hold up better an argument that platform games were considered more fun i guess on console

For some an Amiga was all they had maybe during this time and i think that helps shape opinion more here where this subject is concerned

Doesn't stop me loving the Amiga for what it really does excell at though
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Old 08 December 2009, 22:06   #232
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Fair enough Also the fact that the SNES came out in 1992 here in Europe and the Amiga was pretty much on its way down then, explains why some platformers excelled the Amiga ones. Like I said there are great games on every 'platform' and surely it's in the eye of the beholder which ones are 'better'. A generalised '16 bit consoles had the better platformers' is a bit too shallow (as the opposite 'Amiga owns any console') in my opinion
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Old 08 December 2009, 22:13   #233
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I wasn't directly answering your comment by the way rather thread as a whole

But yeah you like what you like and it should only be that way.There are some probably much better examples of strategy games for example that i could play on PC but i'm very happy with stuff like Deutros and maybe UFO one day.I think the better example of platformers exists on console and in this case i choose to play some of them over what Amiga has

It always going to be more than just what the best is anyway on Amiga as it's atmosphere is heavenly and beyond what i feel for the most on console
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Old 09 December 2009, 01:33   #234
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StarEye View Post
Shadow of the Beast II isn't a very good game on the Amiga either, so that doesn't prove anything.
Excuse me? I was using it as an example of the generally lower standards that the Amiga has regarding platformers. Its rating on LemonAmiga is currently 7.16, with generally positive comments, while every review and forum post that I've seen from Genesis owners concerning the near-identical Genesis version has been emphatically negative. It's an excellent proof of my point that Amiga platformers have an overall lower standard of quality.

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But I'm sure Superfrog would do quite well.
Yeah, if they completely redesigned the levels and fixed the controls.

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Originally Posted by StarEye View Post
Chuck Rock II is colorful, has great gameplay, level-design and is equally as linear as many console games.
And it was originally developed for the Genesis before being ported to the Amiga, like Global Gladiators, Turrican III, Wiz 'n' Liz, and Puggsy (and those are just the ones that I can think of on a whim). So, you're essentially using the quality of console platformers to "prove" that Amiga platformers are better than those on the consoles.

Way to go.

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Flashback isn't really a platformer.
Quote:
Originally Posted by StarEye View Post
Prince of Persia is excellent for its platforming and puzzles.
So, while Prince of Persia is a platformer, Flashback isn't? Despite the fact that they're almost exactly the same game, but with a gun instead of a sword in the latter? What am I missing here?

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Donkey Kong Country is seriously an extremely linear tech-demo, but because of it's groundbreaking graphics it's considered a better game than it deserves.
That "tech-demo" may have been as linear as Super Mario World, but it was still an excellent game with loads of unique features.

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Originally Posted by StarEye View Post
Super Metroid I haven't tried
PLAY IT NOW.

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Originally Posted by StarEye View Post
but I've played some of Super Castlevania. Good game, but still not really any better than the best the Amiga has.
I never said anything of the sort - I just used it as an example of a well-made SNES game. It's "not really better than the best" games on the PC and Genesis, either, but so what? That's not the point that I'm trying to prove.

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Originally Posted by StarEye View Post
The issue here, I think, is that a lot of the platformers you're talking about (give or take a couple) are based on a japanese platforming style.
Say what?

Quote:
Originally Posted by StarEye View Post
A lot of their games incorporated typical RPG elements, which isn't too strange considering how big rpgs were in Japan at the time. What I see is a clear difference between western style platformers and japanese style platformers. I grew up with both, and I really didn't envy the consoles at all back then. I found Sonic quite interesting, but not much else.
What would be an example of a "Japanese" platformer versus a "Western" platformer? Half of the games that I mentioned in the Genesis list were American and European, and most of them were also on the SNES.

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The thing is, all consoles have bad examples of platformers.
No, really? I had absolutely no idea!

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Originally Posted by StarEye View Post
Comparing the worst platformers on the Amiga to the best on the SNES is unfair, and vice versa of course.
And when did anybody in this thread even approach doing that?

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Originally Posted by StarEye View Post
The number of great games on the Amiga might be smaller, but the way people are talking about it, it's like the Amiga is a crappy machine for platformers.
No, it's an excellent machine with way more bad platformers than the consoles have, and fewer good ones.

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Originally Posted by StarEye View Post
The console fanboyism seems to have grown to great heights the last decade, and suddenly decided the Amiga was a crappy system.
Are you calling me a console fanboy?

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Originally Posted by StarEye View Post
The snobbery is all over the place now. I just find that disgustingly juvenile and quite frankly ignorant.
You must be reading a different thread.

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Originally Posted by StarEye View Post
I keep reading how Superfrog is supposedly a bad platformer, but I've never seen anyone actually explain why.
Floaty controls, aimless level design, spikes that kill you instantly at the slightest touch regardless of how many hit points you have, unkillable enemies with no indication that they are such, straightaways that encourage Sonic-style running but end in more spikes, absolutely atrocious jumping controls, excessive backtracking, and very annoying music.

There. And there isn't anything that I mentioned above that hasn't already been said by others - plenty of people have pointed out Superfrog's frankly stupid design errors.

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Originally Posted by StarEye View Post
The first forest world isn't so good, but once you get inside and there is more emphasis on the level-design than just a big world with coins spread around, it's actually fantastic. If you hate on Superfrog, you better have played past the forest world, 'cause it's when you get to the castle it starts to shine.
No, that's when the game stops giving you the finger and starts punching you in the face.

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Originally Posted by StarEye View Post
ere are a few platformers that I think are close to or as good as those you mentioned:

Superfrog
NO.

Quote:
Originally Posted by StarEye View Post
Chuck Rock II
Cool, an average console platformer that's as good as the average console platformer. What'll they think of next?

Quote:
Originally Posted by StarEye View Post
Leander
Would have been a great game without the unavoidable boulders.

Quote:
Originally Posted by StarEye View Post
Ruff'n'Tumble
Ace game, better than most stuff on the consoles.

Quote:
Originally Posted by StarEye View Post
Fire'n'Ice
Never really got into it, and what's with the ST sound?

Quote:
Originally Posted by StarEye View Post
Lionheart
Awesome game; I love the level designs, and the graphics are insane.

Quote:
Originally Posted by StarEye View Post
Arabian Nights
Really good, it's like those old Spectrum platformers, but playable.

Quote:
Originally Posted by StarEye View Post
GODS
It might have been worth playing if the controls hadn't been so broken.

Quote:
Originally Posted by StarEye View Post
Magic Pockets
Seriously? That's one of the worst platformers that I've ever played, gameplay-wise. For someone who complains about the undue respect that Donkey Kong Country gets for having good graphics, you seem to be valuing style over substance yourself.

Quote:
Originally Posted by StarEye View Post
Yo! Joe!
I never really cared much for that one, but it's definitely console-quality.

Quote:
Originally Posted by StarEye View Post
The First Samurai
Eh.

Quote:
Originally Posted by StarEye View Post
Turrican 1
Garbage

Quote:
Originally Posted by StarEye View Post
2
AWESOME.

Quote:
Originally Posted by StarEye View Post
3
Another console game.

Quote:
Originally Posted by StarEye View Post
Soccer Kid
Pretty cool mechanic with the ball, but I never liked it as much as I did Arabian Nights.

Quote:
Originally Posted by StarEye View Post
Harlequin
I don't know what everybody else is seeing in this game; it's awful.

Quote:
Originally Posted by StarEye View Post
James Pond 2
Too much empty space; it gets boring. I liked the body-stretching, though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by StarEye View Post
3
Never played it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by StarEye View Post
Jim Power
Mediocre, and it looks hideous to boot.

Quote:
Originally Posted by StarEye View Post
The Lost Vikings
Yet another console game.

Quote:
Originally Posted by StarEye View Post
Nicky Boom 1
I love the level designs in that game.

Quote:
Originally Posted by StarEye View Post
2
Never played it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by StarEye View Post
Parasol Stars
Never played it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by StarEye View Post
Prince of Persia
I've only played the original Apple II version, but I absolutely love it. Although it seems a bit pointless to bring it up in a discussion of consoles versus Amiga when it was ported to practically every system under the sun.

Quote:
Originally Posted by StarEye View Post
The Viking Child
Never played it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by StarEye View Post
Venus the Flytrap
Mediocre.

Quote:
Originally Posted by StarEye View Post
Switchblade 1
Belongs on the Spectrum.

Quote:
Originally Posted by StarEye View Post
2
Belongs in the trash.

Quote:
Originally Posted by StarEye View Post
etc
I can only assume that you're referring to Benefactor here, in which case I totally agree.

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Originally Posted by StarEye View Post
Sure, it's a matter of taste. But there's no factual reasons why these games are any worse than the console games.
Sure there are. The ones that were originally developed for the consoles have worse graphics (fewer colors, fewer parallax layers), while many others on the list hamper the player with bad controls or unfair "difficulty".

No numbers, but if those were required to judge value, you'd never be able to say that Blade Runner is any better or worse than Battlefield Earth.

Quote:
Originally Posted by StarEye View Post
What is universally acclaimed isn't always the best.
SUPERFROG

Quote:
Originally Posted by StarEye View Post
What I do envy the console gamers though, are the side scrolling beat'em ups. THAT was a genre badly represented on the Amiga. SEGA had the great Streets of Rage series, and Nintendo and SEGA had the best ports of arcade games like Final Fight and Golden Axe (the Amiga version was good, but we only got the first one). VS fighters were just as badly represented, with Mortal Kombat being the best arcade ports, and Shadow Fighter and Fightin' Spirit the best Amiga-only games - both of which were no match for the Street Fighter ports on the SNES.
Yeah, Fightin' Spirit is pretty much the only good beat-em-up on the Amiga.

Quote:
Originally Posted by StarEye View Post
So, some genres are better, some are worse and some are rather equal. I'd say platformers are rather equal, if you're not fanatically into Mario or Sonic.
Consoles had more good ones and fewer bad ones, and "Sonic clones" were only one subgenre in a field of various types, so I'm not sure what you're getting at by that.

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Old 09 December 2009, 01:40   #235
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subjective opinion makes for bad thread reading.
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Old 09 December 2009, 01:52   #236
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So, while Prince of Persia is a platformer, Flashback isn't? Despite the fact that they're almost exactly the same game, but with a gun instead of a sword in the latter? What am I missing here?
You're missing that Prince of Persia is mainly about the jump puzzles and time limit, while Flashback is about the item puzzles. While they share the same type of jumping mechanism both games are quite different.

I also wonder why Turrican 1 is garbage and 2 is AWESOME. Bit strange IMO.
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Old 09 December 2009, 02:19   #237
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This is all a bit heated and not needed about a subject that isn't all that important

For me it's Amiga every time but i tend to favour platformers and shooters on console if indeed i play them at all - some lovely example of the genre on Amiga mind even if they don't excell - most console games didn't manage to either but there was generally a stronger selection i always found

You couldn't hope to play some of the very best games Amiga had on a console so it works both ways though certainly console catered better for this type of game i believe

I do agree that Amiga never really had a strong a collection of truly sensational platformers regardless if you have a fave or not - Ruff n Tumble is my current fave on Amiga and i love it - but they were perfectly enjoyable enough

This is an Amiga board and it's fair to say people wont like some of it's well remembered games being called trash - even if they didn't entirely measure up to the best example in the genre

In the past iv'e been guilty on this board of voicing negatively about this subject for it is what i also consider accurate for the most, but as this is an Amiga board, i doubt people appreciate sometimes how this opinion comes accross.Looking at these types of games does at least show them to at the very least fun in most cases and somtimes exceptionally polished like we have in Flashback Lionheart

Amiga didn't have the support though of some of the really important companies like Capcom and Konami for example and really it was only these devs that really did the great stuff on console.Stuff from lesser devs was usually not all that much better than the mediocre stuff Amiga had as well.Of course Rare and Nintendo were never going to come knocking on Amiga's door either

There was potential to compete but it was not to be

Mr Nutz i must say however i absolutely hated on Snes and Megadrive
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Old 09 December 2009, 02:22   #238
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You're missing that Prince of Persia is mainly about the jump puzzles and time limit, while Flashback is about the item puzzles. While they share the same type of jumping mechanism both games are quite different.
That still doesn't explain how Flashback isn't a platformer. If I make a game that's an exact copy of Lotus Esprit Turbo Challenge, but with money, repair costs, plane tickets, a world map, and a Jaguar XJ220, is it no longer a racing game? I've certainly shifted the emphasis from the immediate to the tactical.

Also, saying that Flashback isn't a platformer because it features item puzzles is like saying that Mr. Nutz isn't a platformer because of the prominence of its world map.

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I also wonder why Turrican 1 is garbage and 2 is AWESOME. Bit strange IMO.
Mainly because in the first game you often end up stuck on the scenery, get struck by random lightning, run out of Gyroscopes, explore a promising tunnel to find that it ends half a screen from the entrance, or lose track of where you are from the repeating areas. The second game fixes all of that, while adding cooler weapons, better bosses, and shoot-em-up stages, all rendered in far superior graphic quality. And the music is incredible.

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This is all a bit heated and not needed about a subject that isn't all that important
Pfft, this is the Internet.

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Mr Nutz i must say however i absolutely hated on Snes and Megadrive
Indeed. The Amiga game was a generally decent Sonic clone with a few extra features and a few more glaring flaws; the console... er... remake? It was an absolute snorefest of a Mario rip-off.

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Old 09 December 2009, 02:30   #239
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That still doesn't explain how Flashback isn't a platformer. If I make a game that's an exact copy of Wipeout, but replace the weapon pads on the track with a garage screen before the race, is it no longer a racing game? I've certainly shifted the emphasis from the immediate to the tactical.
I really wonder if you actually played Flashback. Nevermind then.

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Mainly because in the first game you often end up stuck on the scenery, get struck by random lightning, run out of Gyroscopes, explore a promising tunnel to find that it ends half a screen from the entrance, or lose track of where you are from the repeating areas. The second game fixes all of that, while adding cooler weapons, better bosses, and shoot-em-up stages, all rendered in far superior graphic quality. And the music is awesome.
Makes a 75 to 95 percent change for me. Turrican 1 is far from being garbage. Oh and I never got stuck on the scenery in Turrican 1. Guess I'm just lucky then.
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Old 09 December 2009, 02:38   #240
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lol no you misunderstand Dan, you haven't upset me or i doubt this board, it's just that this site has clearly has been set up for the enjoyment of the Amiga and while anybody is free to say what the hell they want, does it really serve any purpose saying things a certain way as to possibly annoy or upset
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mighty! amiga! platform games Critter Retrogaming General Discussion 51 31 January 2004 17:21
Who are developing games for Amiga platform at the moment? oldpx Amiga scene 65 06 October 2002 17:41

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