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Old 11 August 2009, 22:11   #1
Crown
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Why so few NEW Amiga intros, demos, etc.?

I am always astonished by the amount of releases that see the light on C64 vs our beloved Amiga.

This surprises me even more when I see how many competent coders (galahad, photon, etc.) musicians and gfx artists hang at EAB + various other forums (hi Lizard!).

I am certainly more fond of Demos than Games, so waiting for some new Amiga releases out of a party contest (no Amiga releases on The Assembly 2009 btw), is quite boring.

Quite frankly, I would be pleased loading my old D-Paint in order to draw some logos, fonts, etc. It appears to me as far more creative than playing games (no hard feelings to gamers). And I am sure than some of you feel the same but just haven't got around doing it. Think of the joy of writing a scrolltext in 2009. Am I right?

Isn't there anyone here that would have some interest in releasing neat intros, for the fun of creating something on the amiga?

I look forward to hearing you, hords of Amiga demo fans!

cheers

Last edited by Crown; 11 August 2009 at 22:18.
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Old 11 August 2009, 23:12   #2
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You seem to forget that demos don't consist of logo, starfield, scroller anymore, i.e. coding demos needs much more time these days. And I find it always bloody 'entertaining' when non-coders complain about the lack of releases. How about you learning how to code demos? Wouldn't that be far more useful than opening such threads? Also, what I'd be interested in, what would be a good (!) demo for you these days? I have a certain feeling you're still living in the past...
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Old 12 August 2009, 00:30   #3
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^^ What he said.
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Old 12 August 2009, 00:36   #4
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Stingray is right, its not just about code these days, design plays a major part now, and you can thank those fuckers Melon Dezign for that as well, because the legacy they started (i.e. ok code with great design) is very prevalent today.

I have no problem coding something, but i'm no graphics artist and my music whilst ok, isn't as good as others, so if you're feeling upto gathering stuff together, then i'm sure people might respond, but my design skills are sorely lacking I have to say, I've always been better at function over form.
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Old 12 August 2009, 01:14   #5
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I dunno about that, my favourite demo last year was Pimp My Spectrum. which didn't have sleek gfx or much of a design but it was still great fun.

I think that the reason there are so few Amiga demos these days is that we discovered beer and girls

Could the problem of lack of gfx be solved with a homage-demo which steals the gfx from much loved Amiga games and then takes the piss with them a bit?

Would be cool, no?

Ever wondered who would win in a fight between the Gladiator from Gods and the Beast? Or if SuperNashwan Power from Xenon II could out perform SWIV? You get the idea.

As for design, I always liked one aspect of ST-Demo's we never really saw on the Amiga. Most Amiga demo's are "film-strip" demos where each scene plays one after another. But some ST-Demos bolted on an interactive "game" as a menu where each "screen" could be selected by entering a room on a platformer, or a building in a 3D landscape etc.

Last edited by alexh; 12 August 2009 at 01:36.
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Old 12 August 2009, 01:32   #6
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there is no lack of music/gfx in the amigascene.. the problem is there are almost no motivated coders anymore and the learning curve for making awesome stuff on the amiga is kinda steep compared to other platforms..

pimp my spectrum doesnt have much of gfx/design? i pretend i didnt see that
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Old 12 August 2009, 01:36   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Galahad/FLT View Post
Stingray is right, its not just about code these days, design plays a major part now, and you can thank those fuckers Melon Dezign for that as well, because the legacy they started (i.e. ok code with great design) is very prevalent today.
Well, I personally think it's OK the way it is nowadays. Hardcore coder pr0n is still somewhat cool though but times have changed. And back then I enjoyed many of the Melon Dezign demos because they were entertaining to watch despite the lack of hardcore code.


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I think that the reason there are so few Amiga demos these days is that we discovered beer and girls
Beer and girls existed in the early 90s already. The main "problem" is that the few remaining Amiga demo coders are not 15 anymore, i.e. they all have to work and stuff. So there's not much time left for coding demos.
Take this one for example, while it doesn't feature really hard to do effects it still took 3 months to code because I could only spend a few hours each day (if at all) on the code. It's like that for most other (Amiga) coders too.
Besides, most people concentrate on a release for one of the major parties (Breakpoint f.e.) and I can perfectly understand that.

Quote:
Could the problem of lack of gfx be solved with a homage-demo which steals the gfx from much loved Amiga games and then takes the piss with them? Would be cool, no?
Would be utterly unoriginal and thus not cool. IMHO.
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Old 12 August 2009, 01:39   #8
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Beer and girls existed in the early 90s already.
Depends how old you were in the early 90's I guess.

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Quote:
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Could the problem of lack of gfx be solved with a homage-demo which steals the gfx from much loved Amiga games and then takes the piss with them a bit?
Would be utterly unoriginal and thus not cool. IMHO.
A demo which plays on our nostalgia for classic games characters and includes them in a series of original story led jokes? Unoriginal? Who has done such a demo?

Last edited by alexh; 12 August 2009 at 01:44.
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Old 12 August 2009, 01:46   #9
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Depends how old you were in the early 90's I guess.
Old enough to know about beer and girls and enjoying both of them.
Funnily enough, almost all of the still active Amiga demo coders were already active in the 90s too.

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A demo which plays on our nostalgia for classic games characters and includes them in a series of story led jokes? Unoriginal? Who has done such a demo?
If using graphics from existing games is original for you then my definition of original totally differs from yours. Also, good joke demos are not easy to do. Feel free to prove me wrong though.
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Old 12 August 2009, 02:32   #10
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At least some are still being made
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Old 12 August 2009, 03:40   #11
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For all new Amiga releases always remember to check: http://amiga.bbs.fi/

There is some action going on.. And the only way to get more is to do more self...

what they the scene is not a spectator sport, participate!

I think alot of very good demos, intros and packs have been released this year !!
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Old 12 August 2009, 10:17   #12
Crown
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I think that Galahad made a good point with Melon, a demo can have simple coding, yet novative design and music.

Crackintros are a good example of a simple release that people can enjoy watching over and over (check flashtros).

Stingray, I did not know that you were the same Stingray as in DFT. great stuff!
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Old 12 August 2009, 15:18   #13
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I went to Breakpoint in 2007 and the Amiga releases were a bit thin on quality that year as well, but at this juncture in life i am not really that concerned about whether or not a new Amiga demo comes out or if the whole Amiga Demo Scene fizzles out completely (i don't mean that of the WHOLE Amiga Community though, just the Demo Scene)

Its not because i want it to happen, its just that the older you get (as most of us know) the busier you get and your priorities shift up a gear and the time you can get spending it playing around on an Amiga gets extremely thin on the ground.

If i knew how to code a demo, i would give it a shot but i don't, although for the guys that DO know how, well all i can say is that if they spent as much time coding Demo's today as they did in the 80's and 90's, then they would have to be completely off their nut!!! because all would do is cut into every other facet of their life such as work, women/wife, kids, travel, house...etc... basically having a life!

That's not to knock those who are still in their late 30's or 40's still making demo's, if they have the time and all else is sorted and life is good then yeah GO FOR IT!!!... but as the guys are saying, time moves on and you need to move with it otherwise it will bite you in the rectum.
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Old 12 August 2009, 15:57   #14
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^

In the late 80's early 90's, I had almost 50% free time to do what I wanted. Work being a priority, beer next and girls a close 3rd, I had plenty of time to muck about on the Amiga. Now it's a totally different storey, kids and a wife being the main problem, money being the second and time.............what time, there isn't enough hours in the day

Although I try and spend as much time on my peecee, it's always interrupted here there and everywhere so to be able to code etc, won't be easy and if your demanded on a regular basis 'cause the wife has set fire to the cooker 'n' she needs you to put it out it's not easy to get back to where you left off.

I have had, in the past, some brilliant ideas, which have been ruined 'cause of the demands of the wife and kids, so I tend not to over indulge in anything over sophisticated anymore

It's a shame, I know, but that's life and it can't be undone + the intense need to create Demos has almost diminished over time. There are a few still making them, PMC on here for one is learning and is doing a fantastic job So I suppose it's down to the lifestyle and/or the needs of the individual themselves.

I'll always make some contribution to the Amiga scene, it's just finding the time where I can knuckle down without the casual interruptions and that's gonna be hard
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Old 12 August 2009, 16:45   #15
skan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StingRay View Post
You seem to forget that demos don't consist of logo, starfield, scroller anymore...
W00T??!?? WTF did this happen?!??! /o\
/me runs away crying

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I have a certain feeling you're still living in the past...
Ahhh, such a sweet feeling!!!
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Old 13 August 2009, 04:36   #16
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Skan, Stingray

I think Stingray sounded angry cos he has gotten the "wanna make a demo with me? I can make the logo!" question many times, and below are some reasons why he maybe doesn't enjoy those :P

For me code pr0n is not enjoyable if it has boring ideas or effects. Design is something different; it makes it more passable for the vast majority of non-coders, and coders who don't know what's possible for that platform. "It looks nice".

For me it's about experiencing cool ideas and effects, especially impossible effects where you couldn't figure out "how the fuck did they do THAT!?" left you in awe. Kind of like the "sense of wonder" in oldskool science fiction novels. As with everything, the older you are the more you have seen, so those books don't fill you with the same awe anymore.

But with demos it's different, for some reason. As long as you don't do it too often, a cup of coffee and a garishly-colored demo with cool scenarios and effects is still awesome! Even if the demo is just some simple unimpressive effect-seen-before thing, you can feel a warm sense of nostalgia... like seeing a good old friend or a good old tv show...

For modern platforms, if it weren't for scene people still caring, why aren't all demos rendered animations? No engine could beat its quality, and all* demos are strictly scripted to show the same sequence of frames. And with cool scenarios and ideas and effects, it would be the same thing.

But the thing with demos is that all* the people watching know it's the hardware generating what you see and hear, and therefore much harder to do. It's a cool "non-productive" use of technology, and part of it is that you know some things are hard to do. Also, you know that if something is impressive and you know it's made by a handful of guys sacrificing only the few hours of free time they have, it's even more impressive. "Hey, who are you? Ah, you did that?? That's so cool and well-done!". Everyone wants to be the one to hear that, and that's the reason being in the scene. Much more sane than someone struggling for 15 years to be the first one to jump 1cm higher than the world champion


I'm typing so much... I must be philosophical today

As for making a nostalgic/satirical look-back-on-old-games demo, it's the same there. It will be good if the idea and effects are good. Some people have already become "youtube famous" by making such videos - but ofc (see above) videos are not demos.

The ideas and their realization is the hardest part of demomaking, since it runs on real hardware making new effects take a lot more time than coding them. A lot of testing and if the end result looks crap you might have to think up another effect, test and code that. The other hard part is knowing if the idea itself is cool And when you have a notebook full of cool ideas the ante is upped, it takes willpower to do all the hours unless you code just for the joy of coding! I feel that way now, but it hasn't always been that way - other things have been equally fun.

And since so few 15yos are into demos and want the goal we want (compared to the large number of ol' geezers like us, I mean), and since a big part of the old 15yos have left the scene or changed platform, you'll have to tolerate the current rate of releases, as Stingray said. That's absolutely not saying you shouldn't make it happen, ofc

He's also right that the scene needs more coders - musicians and graphics artists far outnumber them, and coding takes a lot more time. I know this too, and so I got the idea for the Asm Skool on coppershade.org. But I got sidetracked (studies, then working away from home) but I've been writing content on occasion and now that I'm coding I'm putting some sources aside for it from time to time. So, any century now (tm)

There's all the material you'll need already available on the web to learn coding ofc, the reason for coppershade would be "a cozy place where people can get a shortcut tutorial for the beginner stuff and I can write some non-obvious tricks and results of chipset exploration with some juicy sources". Like I enjoyed folklore.org! (I've read all the stories now I think...)

Last edited by Photon; 13 August 2009 at 04:46.
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Old 13 August 2009, 10:45   #17
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I think Stingray sounded angry cos he has gotten the "wanna make a demo with me? I can make the logo!" question many times, and below are some reasons why he maybe doesn't enjoy those :P
I wasn't angry, just realistic. I'm not a fan of these "OMG the Scene is dead!!!!11eins" kind of posts though, that's true.
Thing is, there are still enough demos released and I for one enjoy coding them. And there are people here at EAB who recently restarted coding or started to learn coding effects (Hi Vortex, hi PMC =) which I find incredibly cool.

Comparing C64 scene with Amiga scene doesn't say much either, after all, there are much more C64 coders than Amiga coders and a lot of the C64 releases aren't anything I would consider "cool". There are some incredibly mindblowing demos released though, but if you know that HCL worked for about 7 years on Edge of Disgrace you may realise how much work and time is required for a good demo these days on such limited platforms like C64 or also the Amiga.

Anyway, my point is, demo coding is fun but complaining about lack of releases, specially when you never coded a demo yourself, isn't going to help much. And I for one prefer good quality releases instead of another of these "Logo, starfield, scroller" demos I mentioned in my first post. One of the reasons there were much more releases back in the day (tm) is the fact, that a lot of them weren't anything special at all, i.e. they were incredibly easy to code.

Just my 2 € cents.
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Old 13 August 2009, 15:42   #18
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HCL worked for about 7 years on Edge of Disgrace
You made my day by pointing this out to me Sting - it's great! Made my jaw literally drop a couple of times 7 years well spent for HCL
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Old 14 August 2009, 00:23   #19
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Everyone isn't capable of becoming a good coder, yet I believe that a bunch of EAB users could do something great, all together.

New routines isn't the key, fun is!
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Old 14 August 2009, 02:39   #20
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The Amiga demoscene is dead, unfortunately.
Just ask Photon, he had to submit an already made/distributed/released intro kind of thing to Breakpoint 09 competition to have something to make up bulk on the Amiga category
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