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Old 28 June 2009, 10:33   #41
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I guess I should use those smilies...
Seems like
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Old 29 June 2009, 02:25   #42
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I don't believe Commodore were wrong in developing the CDTV. In fact I think it was a very brave move. OK, it was a commercial failure, but they could see the possibilities for the future of home entertainment. The technology just wasn't quite there yet to deliver the full vision they had. And only really now with the PS3 and Xbox 360 are we starting to see the real ideas behind a true multimedia platform being realised. Therefore Commodore were really 20 years ahead in he ideas they had behind the CDTV.

The CD32 on the other hand was a big mistake. It was a last ditch attempt to try and catch up with the games industry, which it could see was quickly moving away from home computers as the main platform for gaming, and into the console market. They should have instead concentrated on delivering an official CD drive for the A1200 and A4000. I think had they done that we would have seen a lot more software and games development for CD on the Amiga.
Although the CDTV was an amazing product (and well ahead of it's time) they didn't seem to have a specific target audience in mind and didn't even seem sure what it was themselves.

I actually think the CD32 was a great idea but they handled it all wrong. It should have been designed in parallel with a CD equipped A1200 (both would have had a 'chunky' chip, both would have been able to play MPEG1 and each other's software out of the box). This would have really helped both of them shift units and CDROM based games really started taking off around 93/94.


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Old 29 June 2009, 02:36   #43
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See it like this. By the time the game Doom came out, the highest-end PC could run it at full speed with every setting turned on to max. The highest-end Amiga, source port provided, would have barely displayed a thumbnail slideshow.
I've just done this little [ Show youtube player ] of my 030 equipped 1200 playing DOOM (with music).

Although it's doing an amazing job considering the chipset was never designed to do this kind of thing it's still slower than my old 386 PC used to run it (and this is with an 030 @ 50mhz not an 020 @ 14mhz).

I think the Amiga 1200 would have need a built-in Akiko type chip and a faster 020 (or preferably an 030) to have kept up with the PC's in 93.
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Old 29 June 2009, 03:05   #44
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Doom is completely playable on A4000 with A3640. Its even playable with A3630 or A3000. For some reason ID just didn't want to do Amiga port of Doom..
i agree with you there.But the majority of people had A500's/A1200 at time some didn't even bother upgrading the ram .Although saying that, they could had been persuaded if it was released on the amiga at that time...

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Old 29 June 2009, 03:06   #45
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would commodore been kept afloat if they kept c64 alive at the time?....
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Old 29 June 2009, 03:55   #46
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The Commodore 64 WAS alive at that time. They produced C64 machines to the end, their bankruptcy. Of course the main game industry left this platform some years earlier.
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Old 29 June 2009, 04:52   #47
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Interesting thread! I thought I'd put in my two cents.

I agree that the PC's open architecture was the decisive point. There wasn't any crucial leveraging in place like Jack T. had with the C-64, where he was basically providing his own components at cost.

As I see it, the best bet for Commodore was the Video Toaster. They might have put all their eggs in that basket and won over hobby and independent video editors and hung on for a long time. I think Mac succeeded like that with graphic designers.

Still, the big problem was that AGA, 16-bit sound, and CD-ROM just took too long. If they could have gotten that technology out three or four years earlier, it could have proven decisive. Imagine what might have happened if the 1200 had arrived in 1988, for instance.

One of my favorite scenarios is what might have happened if Commodore had licensed out its Amiga OS and let all component/computer manufacturers compete to provide cheaper and better systems. There was still a gap there between DOS and Windows 95 that could have been filled quite nicely. Of course, not sure how the Motorolas could have competed with the Intels at that point, especially after the Pentium in 93.
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Old 29 June 2009, 09:32   #48
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Still, the big problem was that AGA, 16-bit sound, and CD-ROM just took too long.
The Amiga (without extra hardware) never had 16-bit sound, which was another problem compared to the SB compatible 16-bit 44 kHz standard of the PC (not that the music on the PC was really better ). Even the A4000 still had the A1000 Paula sound chip.
I completely agree that Commodore had to release the A1200 and A4000 at least two years earlier and maybe even with a better 'backwards' compatibility, to have a chance against the growing PC market. 1992 was much too late.
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Old 29 June 2009, 14:12   #49
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For a company to survive in that marketplace, it needed a clear strategy and vision. That sounds like management consultancy spin, but I believe it's true. Commodore had no idea what they wanted to be at the very highest level.

The market and environment changed radically throughout their live and commodore did manage to change somewhat, and focus on the right things (eg getting rid of filing cabinet line of business etc) but they didn't have the clear vision for what they'd be.

Commodore had a superb product in 1986 that was groundbreaking, and so far ahead of the competition it wasn't funny. They had dream quotes from software producers, from artists, etc, that you just couldn't buy.

For a variety of reasons they didn't keep the technical lead - possibly because of the Medhi factor, and possibly because they didn't know what they were aiming for. It wasn't that they didn't have the right people to point them in the right direction, however I daresay Haynie et al could really have done with a bigger team of people working with them...

So no, they'd not still be around if they have $$millions... Although the only way they'd have had $$millions would be by having a clear vision/strategy and executing it, so maybe they would be
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Old 29 June 2009, 22:52   #50
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When did CD-Rom enter the mass market? When „7th Guest“ and „Star Wars: Rebel Assault“ came out in '93. Those games were revolutionary and I think, that was the end of Amiga.

But why weren't these games released for CDTV or CD32? Somehow the publishers had lost their interest in Amiga. There was no better protection against piracy in those days than publishing on a CD. So the piracy argument is no argument at all. The Amiga was highly dependant on the games that were produced for it (much more than PC, for example).

Why didn't Commodore's management foresee this? Why didn't they take measures? Was it greed, incompetence or just disinterest?

Of course money could have kept Amiga alive. But not the classic Amiga as we know it. Commodore had driven that one against a rock solid concrete wall, already.
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Old 29 June 2009, 22:55   #51
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dont think they would have enough ram to run them?
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Old 29 June 2009, 22:59   #52
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Then why wasn't RAM an issue for PC? That is not such a big conceputal flaw of Amiga, agree?
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Old 29 June 2009, 23:00   #53
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No, Star Wars Rebell Assault wasn't really revolutionary. It's a typical rail- shooter. Looked spectacular for a few minutes, but then it bored you to death. Just like the FMV games they've made for the PC, 3DO, Sega CD etc. in the early 90s.

This has nothing to do with the death of the Amiga or Commodore.
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Old 29 June 2009, 23:06   #54
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This has nothing to do with the death of the Amiga or Commodore.
I can remember how I saw the game, and my jaw dropped. Of course, Monkey Island is much, much better in retrospection. But especially "7th Guest" pushed the sales for CD-ROMs significantly.

But that's not even the main point. There games publishers had moved away from Amiga. It starved...
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Old 29 June 2009, 23:10   #55
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But that's not even the main point. There games publishers had moved away from Amiga. It starved...
Sure, the game developer were waiting for the Sega Saturn/Playstation or moved to the PC. The CD32 was a predictable commercial flop, just like the 3DO, Jaguar CD, Sega CD, Apple Pippin.
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Old 29 June 2009, 23:11   #56
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Then why wasn't RAM an issue for PC? That is not such a big conceputal flaw of Amiga, agree?
yes but p.c components are mass produced to reduce cost,Something the amiga was bit alienated from.well except the bigger machines/accelerators taking the standard simms at time...

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Old 29 June 2009, 23:12   #57
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The CD32 was a commercial flop, just like the 3DO, Jaguar CD, Sega CD, Apple Pippin.
Not much you could do on cd32.ram was only 2mb

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Old 29 June 2009, 23:18   #58
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yes but p.c components are mass produced to reduce cost,something the amiga was bit alienated from,well except the bigger machines/acclerators taking the standard simms at time...
Wait, Commodore built the CDTV. But they didn't equip it with enough RAM to play the cool new CD-ROM games? Makes perfect sense.

And virtually everyone who owned an A500 sooner or later got at least 512kB expansion. It was expensive, yes, but not forbidding.
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Old 29 June 2009, 23:19   #59
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As i said, the time for 2D games (except for handhelds) was over.

@CDTV

The CDTV had 1MB Chipram, enough for all games they released at that time. Unfortunately the most CDTV stuff was "multi-media" crap.
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Old 29 June 2009, 23:21   #60
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Some of the aga/ecs games didn't get a cd32 port .im sure fifa soccer/wonderdog would had went down well on cd32.

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