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Old 04 June 2009, 02:34   #21
T_hairy_bootson
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I like the amiga explorer software they make. But people who think amiga forever IS the emulator need to be shot.
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Old 04 June 2009, 03:21   #22
frikilokooo
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Originally Posted by Retro-Nerd View Post
Amiga Kickstarts should be free, just like the Atari TOS roms. You can't earn money with it. The Amiga is dead since ages. I prefer to support companies like Individual computers, or the stores like Vesalia, Amigakit, Protovision etc.
I can not say it better.I've spent the last years a fortune in Amiga stuff(maybe not much compared to some people in this forum)but buy the kickstart seems shameful.
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Old 04 June 2009, 09:42   #23
Shoonay
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I don't hate them, I don't know them, I don't use their software (except for PP in some cases ), I wouldn't buy their software...

Last edited by Shoonay; 04 June 2009 at 13:46.
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Old 04 June 2009, 12:55   #24
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I don't hate them , but i hope that they give money to winuae makers as they use it...

They are selling with a BIG price a lot of things which are free or google findable...

Kickstarts can be taken from real harware so...

It's true that for someone who never had a real amiga this product can be good but not at this price .
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Old 04 June 2009, 13:23   #25
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I think they tend to cloud things rather than clarify them. Beginners should come to real Amiga fans to learn the basics of AmigaOS and get to fiddle with the available tools (and get boinged !) themselves.

For example, MAGE people who sit still on IRC channel answering every kind of question about Gamebase Amiga. Can you expect some real-time help from people who licence the roms ?

For us at netcomet.info HQ, the challenge is to get people to play more Amiga games and less "fast and furious" modern ones, not to put a price on Kickstarts.

Plus, their logo is... how to say... drab, childish.
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Old 04 June 2009, 13:38   #26
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just my 2c , I like AmigaForever , and it all comes complete pre-installed, so a (new) user won't have to bother with it... and that is why I continue to upgrade to every new version...
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Old 04 June 2009, 14:34   #27
chiark
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In the UK you are legally allowed to back up what you own, this is a right, any company that denies this right to the consumer in a sale is infact braking the law...
Zee, I must admit I thought you were wrong on that, as the UK (I thought) did not have a Fair Use clause enshrined in law.

I was wrong: http://www.copyrightservice.co.uk/co..._copyright_law

Producing a back up copy for personal use of a computer program

Cor!
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Old 04 June 2009, 14:39   #28
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I don't hate them either. In fact as the owner of Classicamiga they send me a free copy of each new release of Amiga Forever for me to evaluate to see how their project is progressing.

And as an Amiga package it is a great product with the ability to boot into a Linux based emulation of the Amiga directly from the CD. To install and run a preconfigured WinUAE based emulation on your system and to use their own player frontend to load games and demos without needing to know how to setup and configure the emulator (although the frontend is very unstable and crashes a lot!).

Plus the inclusion of the videos in the premium edition is great for any long term fan of the Amiga to watch.

However I do have some ethical issues regarding Amiga Forever.

If you dissect the contents of the whole Amiga Forever package, what is Cloanto actually sellings its customers? The answer is a lot of hard work developed and created by others commercially in the distant past (the kickstart roms and the OS, old commercial games, demos and other software), and a lot more hard work developed by the Amiga community in their spare time for free (WinUAE etc) or made for free (the videos).

Do all of these people get any share of the money Amiga Forever is selling for? I very much doubt it.

Cloanto are really just packaging up the best bits of the Amiga and selling them on a DVD. And are their contributions their own, or repackaged and rebranded software from others? (their WinUAE frontend, the CD booting Amiga environment etc). The one saving grace in my view is the Amiga Explorer software to connect a PC to an Amiga to transfer ADFs to disk and back. That software is worth money in itself.

There has been a very long running argument over the kickstart roms now getting very old, and although there is the argument that 3.1 is still needed to make the still commercial AmigaOS 3.9 work, it is quite a thin argument. There is no commercial value in any of the older kickstart versions, other than the one Cloanto is cashing in on by having this exclusive right to distribute them. How did they get this exclusive right? And why does it seem to be so exclusive to just them?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zetr0 View Post
"Whom gets the money from the licensed roms anyway?"
"Does the original license that cloanto purchase ever run out?"
"What is the cut in royalties that you are paying? and to whom?"
"Can I have a license to distribute Kickstart ROMS?"
"Why should Coanto have an exsclusive license and no other company?"
"Have you heard of trade discrimination?"
I would like to also know the answer to these questions. Especially regarding who is getting what from the purchase price of Amiga Forever.

And are any of the makers and developers of the completely free products they are using such as WinUAE actually getting anything from the sale to aid them in continued development. Basically do they get royalties for their work actually being sold for profit?
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Old 04 June 2009, 14:44   #29
coze
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I think they should make the kickstarts free and sell Amiga Forever package without them (for a more sensible price). Like C64 forever. I think C64 roms are free right ? (at least winvice came with them) So should winUAE. Releasing the source to kickstarts will also be a great contribution to the Amiga community (Though I'm not sure if that's within their power). They will get much more loving and I think they won't lose too much money. This will also make projects like MiniMig etc much more convenient (no more kickstart loading from SD, maybe onboard ROMs etc). Also I think AROS and stuff will benefit too.
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Old 04 June 2009, 14:45   #30
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And as an Amiga package it is a great product with the ability to boot into a Linux based emulation of the Amiga directly from the CD. To install and run a preconfigured WinUAE based emulation on your system and to use their own player frontend to load games and demos without needing to know how to setup and configure the emulator (although the frontend is very unstable and crashes a lot!).
I recon, that without the legal restrictions on the distribution of the kickstart roms, someone would create something equally as easy, and equally as good (maybe more stable though) for free.

The kickstart roms are the only thing stopping people putting together simple to use, all in one solutions just like Amiga Forever.
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Old 04 June 2009, 14:49   #31
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Originally Posted by killergorilla View Post
I recon, that without the legal restrictions on the distribution of the kickstart roms, someone would create something equally as easy, and equally as good (maybe more stable though) for free.

The kickstart roms are the only thing stopping people putting together simple to use, all in one solutions just like Amiga Forever.
for the win!
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Old 04 June 2009, 15:05   #32
TCD
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The kickstart roms are the only thing stopping people putting together simple to use, all in one solutions just like Amiga Forever.
Aye. Guess with the whole BTTR archive (hippie's approval assumed) would make a nice and worthwhile package indeed. Except the kickstart it would be legal and if you would charge nothing you could include all the fine scene productions too.
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Old 04 June 2009, 15:05   #33
Harrison
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Quote:
Originally Posted by killergorilla View Post
I recon, that without the legal restrictions on the distribution of the kickstart roms, someone would create something equally as easy, and equally as good (maybe more stable though) for free.

The kickstart roms are the only thing stopping people putting together simple to use, all in one solutions just like Amiga Forever.
Totally agree. We have seen this is already possible within the Amiga community with the quality of projects already available for free by community members, for community members. With AmigaSYS and ClassicWB being two great examples.
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Old 04 June 2009, 15:09   #34
Fred the Fop
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I see it a different way. I love the Amiga Forever series especially 2008, since I think its an all in one package to run an Emulated Amiga on your PC plus the videos and other stuff. I'm good friends with Michael and he's just a good person. I was exposed to Amiga through Amiga Forever 3.0
I like paying for my ROMs in an honest good way. I also pay for my music online if i do like the song.

Why does some in the Amiga Community hate Cloanto? what did they do to deserve the hatred perception. Voice out your opinions and feelings here. Let's keep it clean.
You are one of those wild transvestites that hang around Christopher Street, ain't you?
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Old 04 June 2009, 17:21   #35
Zetr0
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Zee, I must admit I thought you were wrong on that, as the UK (I thought) did not have a Fair Use clause enshrined in law.

I was wrong: http://www.copyrightservice.co.uk/co..._copyright_law

Producing a back up copy for personal use of a computer program

Cor!
it gets better too...

did you know that under UK and european law you are legally allowed to decompile and add / remove features to the software that you own, even recompile it to run on another system. (obviously distributing it would be illegal however)

Apparently this is not so in the US and you can be prosocuted for it.

-----------

I just love that law module I took last year...


talk to me about trade marks and IP.... i dare ya
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Old 04 June 2009, 17:26   #36
chiark
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talk to me about trade marks and IP.... i dare ya
Dirty.

Old.

Man.

Is it not enough that I take m4cr0 shots of obscure hardware for ya without talking dirty? Stop flirting!
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Old 04 June 2009, 17:47   #37
Zetr0
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Pmsl!!!!!!!
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Old 04 June 2009, 18:52   #38
Marcuz
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i would use c64 forever, if it would come free. as that's not the case, then, i'm not interested. but i don't hate them at all.
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Old 04 June 2009, 19:43   #39
Harrison
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it gets better too...

did you know that under UK and european law you are legally allowed to decompile and add / remove features to the software that you own...
Except software publishers now often state that you don't own the software, but instead have purchased a license from them for the right to install and run the software on your system. Therefore there is a bit of a grey area concerning this.
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Old 04 June 2009, 20:58   #40
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Without adding anything to this argument I'd like to point out that I know at least one guy who was involved with developing the Amiga libraries as well as the hardware and he sure does not get any money from this...
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