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Old 08 September 2014, 15:33   #441
hansel75
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For the first few years the Amiga could match most arcade stuff when in the hands of a decent coder.

But once arcade games like Outrun and Streetfighter 2 started coming out, the Amiga could not keep up with them anymore.
From then on we always had watered down versions of arcade games, although a lot of the ports were still very respectable games on there own.

This also applies to every computer system at the time, and if certain arcade ports looked weak on the Amiga, then they generally looked even weaker on all the other mainstream computers at the time.
(Apart from lame st ports to amiga).
As for the ST, the way i see it is that the ST is an A500 but with all the cool bits taken out!!!

I also see other system comparisons like the speccy/cpc464 vs c64 in the same way as i view the amiga vs st.
The speccy/cpc haven't got all the cool custom chips the c64 has like the sid and vic chips, to make gaming superior and smoother.
Just like the st hasn't got the custom chips the amiga has for better gaming capabilities!
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Old 08 September 2014, 15:37   #442
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Originally Posted by dlfrsilver View Post
which was a crazy choice since the ST was not made at all for arcade ports.
It's only crazy from a consumer's perspective though; the publishers looked at the two machines, realised they could "get away with" developing on the ST then shoehorning the results into the Amiga afterwards and, since that saved quite a bit of money, that seemed like a feckin' brilliant idea!

Not that i'm cynical or anything... =-)
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Old 08 September 2014, 15:43   #443
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Originally Posted by AnimaInCorpore View Post
The C64 and ZX Spectrum weren't either but obviously there was a market for it.



On par?

Sega System 16A vs Amiga 1000:

MC68000 @ 10 MHz vs 7.1 MHz.
320 x 224 vs 320 x 200.
128 Sprites on screen at one time, 2 tile layers, 1 text layer, 1 sprite layer with hardware sprite zooming, translucent shadows vs 8 Sprites, 32 colors for background.
The sega System16A & B were PC-like architecture built around the Nec PC series 98XX (they used those to develop their coin-op games), but the processor driving the board was 68000 instead of a intel X86 processor. Note also that the Sega System 16 use a chunky display, while other coin-ops like the CPS-1 and 2 were planar like the amiga (but more like the X68000 which is also planar hehe).

There is also something to notice : the coin-op games uses seperate palettes, but those are in fact 256 colors games if you look the same thing on a computer. The seperate palettes just make it easier to use a specific palette on a specific sprite.

The main problem is not the amount of sprites either, but the RAM used on amiga and the amount of colors if someone wanted to port the games.
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Old 08 September 2014, 15:49   #444
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It's only crazy from a consumer's perspective though; the publishers looked at the two machines, realised they could "get away with" developing on the ST then shoehorning the results into the Amiga afterwards and, since that saved quite a bit of money, that seemed like a feckin' brilliant idea!

Not that i'm cynical or anything... =-)
Funny how some things never change, as the way is see it at the moment with cross platform titles, is that the Xbone is holding back the PS4, and even worse the consoles are holding back pc gaming.
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Old 08 September 2014, 16:06   #445
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Originally Posted by hansel75 View Post
For the first few years the Amiga could match most arcade stuff when in the hands of a decent coder.

But once arcade games like Outrun and Streetfighter 2 started coming out, the Amiga could not keep up with them anymore.
From then on we always had watered down versions of arcade games, although a lot of the ports were still very respectable games on there own.

This also applies to every computer system at the time, and if certain arcade ports looked weak on the Amiga, then they generally looked even weaker on all the other mainstream computers at the time.
(Apart from lame st ports to amiga).
X68000 says hi!

If only we knew back then the Japanese made a mean gaming system. The Amiga vs st debate would be a mere footnote to the x68000's dominance.
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Old 08 September 2014, 16:22   #446
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For the first few years the Amiga could match most arcade stuff when in the hands of a decent coder.
Yes that's true, if you look at Toki, or snow bros for example, yep.

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But once arcade games like Outrun and Streetfighter 2 started coming out, the Amiga could not keep up with them anymore.
He could not because the coders hired were not up to the task, were not given access to the source code or source graphics most of the time (commercials were not doing their job correctly there, as taito gave the source materials, as well as jaleco).

a game like SF2 was written by top level japanese engineers, just look how incredible the AI is on that game, no play looks like the other one, it's almost like fighting a real opponent.

Second, they should have tried to get in touch with capcom to get the source code and the graphics, and this was not done by US GOLD commercials/directors.

The amiga needed a lot of RAM to get music + characters + animations.
This was not the case. SF2 needs 2mb at min on X68000 to run correctly.

Outrun was really so badly done, with ST in mind.... look Lotus 2, it's on par and as good as Outrun !

Quote:
From then on we always had watered down versions of arcade games, although a lot of the ports were still very respectable games on there own.
Yes watered, but look, most companies had no real graphist to retouch the arcade graphics, i'm thinking about Aplin with Final fight, excellent coder, but he had no graphist, and look how crap the graphics were ?

Quote:
This also applies to every computer system at the time, and if certain arcade ports looked weak on the Amiga, then they generally looked even weaker on all the other mainstream computers at the time.
(Apart from lame st ports to amiga).
Many arcade ports were done on ST then amiga, the result was most of the time a catastrophy, because coin-op games mostly runs at 50 fps per sec, which the ST can't cope with. They tought they could economize money by doing them first on ST, then porting on amiga, it was a technological mistake, because once they did the software routines on ST, they had then to port those on amiga, and it was a heavy job.

When a game like Black tiger was released, and i remember it well, we were mostly happy on the fact that we got the possibility to play the game out of the coin-op rooms. But now, all we see is that the game has a flawed mechanic, while being faithfull to the coin-op, which is a shame.
And look how slow the game is on the ST 68000 when you know this is an 8 bits coin-op based on z80 !

Quote:
As for the ST, the way i see it is that the ST is an A500 but with all the cool bits taken out!!!
the ST is like the macintosh, not made at all for gaming at the start, but used as such when the amiga was more adequate for the job.

Quote:
I also see other system comparisons like the speccy/cpc464 vs c64 in the same way as i view the amiga vs st.
It's not that simple. the C64 was almost inexistant in my country because the CPC killed it (professionnally and gaming wise). The ZX spectrum was seen here as a joke. the ZX spectrum had no success in France and worse, amstrad which had to distribute and sell them said to Sugar that they didn't want too many unit of ZX because those were not selling.

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The speccy/cpc haven't got all the cool custom chips the c64 has like the sid and vic chips, to make gaming superior and smoother.
You don't know well the CPC nor its abilities. The CPC has indeed no hardware sprite support, but it has hardware scrolling, and it's not an accidental feat like the one on atari ST for instance. It was available from the start. It has the CRTC (cathodic ray tube controller) which allows hardware functions, and works like the amiga's copper. The CPC main problem is the lack of RAM. The CPC seems to be a computer working like a 16 bits computer, but using a z80 8 bits micro-processor, which is quite not enough. the ST is the contrary, it's a 16 bits machine who has a 16 bits 68000 processor, but with less abilities than an amstrad CPC (yes, the ST has limitations the CPC doesn't have video wise!). The C64 was seen as an expensive toy for rich family boys, whatever the sound chip, and whatever the hardware sprites and scrolls. But to say that every CPC games are software driven is plainly wrong. Many games use mode 0 display with more than 16 colors (yes thanks to the CRTC which allows rasters and palettes change, like the copper is doing on amiga !), and on top of that they use hardware double buffer for display !

In many ways the CPC share some things with the amiga (CRTC/hardware scroll/palette change - Copper/Blitter/hardware scroll/Palette change), will the ST and CPC mainly share is the 320x200 screen mode in 4 colors for the CPC and 16 for the ST. but what you can in hardware on CPC, can't be done on ST other than with software routines driven by the 68000. Most CPC coders were not trying to surpass ZX, ST, or C64 coders, they wanted to reach as best as they could the amiga games ! There is no reference at all to the C64 in most cracked games on CPC, but you can find many references to the ST and quite a lot about the amiga.

Quote:
Just like the st hasn't got the custom chips the amiga has for better gaming capabilities!
They share the 68000, but the 2 architectures in hardware were in fact so different....
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Old 08 September 2014, 16:22   #447
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Originally Posted by Ian View Post
X68000 says hi!

If only we knew back then the Japanese made a mean gaming system. The Amiga vs st debate would be a mere footnote to the x68000's dominance.
If only the X68000 had gone mainstream and had the huge amount of releases the Amiga had, then it might be a different story!

But i don't really count the X68000 into the equation, as it was basically the Amiga and ST for the majority of users and the X68000 was simply not mainstream enough to consider into the comparison.

Edit- Same could be said for the Acorn Archimedes, nice machine but it couldn't compete with the userbase and software selection of the Amiga and ST!

Edit2- @dlfrsilver, you can praise the cpc 464 as much as you like, but at the end of the day you only need to look at the majority of games for the 8bit systems.
And despite whatever reasons for poor cpc games, the c64 simply outclassed the cpc for quality and quantity of games by a long shot!
We can talk all day about cpc batman demo and the r-type remake, but these are rare examples and don't represent what 99% of the software for the cpc was like!
Just like the Amiga outclassed and outlived the ST, also notice how both the C64 and Amiga outlived all of there competitors.
And notice how both the C64 and Amiga were the only mainstream computers that had custom chips in them to do awesome graphics and audio!
This wasn't a coincidence, people bought the Commodore computers because of the better games from better technology!

Last edited by hansel75; 08 September 2014 at 17:22.
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Old 08 September 2014, 17:21   #448
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Originally Posted by Ian View Post
X68000 says hi!

If only we knew back then the Japanese made a mean gaming system. The Amiga vs st debate would be a mere footnote to the x68000's dominance.
A 3000 Japanese computer, a mean gaming system! for who? Neo-Geo owners dads?!

It's alright looking back and showing what the X68000 was capable of, but the price took it out of any gamers equation...was a arcade development system pure and simple.
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Old 08 September 2014, 17:36   #449
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To begin with it cost that much. The system sold quite well in Japan so they either lowered the price or Japan had lots of neo geo owners parents buying then up.

I tried googling but only going the original price that you probably did not for any of the other revisions.
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Old 08 September 2014, 17:44   #450
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Let's just stick to Amiga vs ST in this thread please.
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Old 08 September 2014, 17:45   #451
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To begin with it cost that much. The system sold quite well in Japan so they either lowered the price or Japan had lots of neo geo owners parents buying then up.

I tried googling but only going the original price that you probably did not for any of the other revisions.
Your right it was from memory, i just googled and found original price 369,000yen which is 2168...still a massive amount I'm sure you agree for a gaming system.

Its common knowledge the X68000 out of all the Japanese computers (X1, PC-88/98, FM Towns etc was one of the lowest selling systems, mainly due to the price.

Again its not a like for like comparison with the Amiga, you might as well compare the GX4000 to the Neo-Geo as they came out the same year!
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Old 08 September 2014, 17:52   #452
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Depends what kind of Apps it had as well, what was the price tag on PCs or top of the range Amiga at the time.
There must have been a reason to buy the X68000 instead of a console..?
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Old 08 September 2014, 19:31   #453
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Depends what kind of Apps it had as well, what was the price tag on PCs or top of the range Amiga at the time.
There must have been a reason to buy the X68000 instead of a console..?
The average PC in 1987 was $2000 (1240) but wasn't a patch on the Amiga chipset until the vga and later 386 days.
there was no reason as a gamer to buy the top range Amiga's back then, other than extra floppy drive/hdd, so the A500 at 499 was a gamers dream.

The X68000 was a top range PC for development, dtp, music...capcom used it to develop CPS1 games, which is why the ports are arcade perfect.
But as stated the price (2168) was way too high, the games it did get ports for were mostly programmed on it, there is a few exclusives but imo with mame around its not worth hunting for one.

Anyway thats it from me, don't want to derail thread anymore!
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Old 08 September 2014, 19:53   #454
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Originally Posted by hansel75 View Post
For the first few years the Amiga could match most arcade stuff when in the hands of a decent coder.

But once arcade games like Outrun and Streetfighter 2 started coming out, the Amiga could not keep up with them anymore.
From then on we always had watered down versions of arcade games, although a lot of the ports were still very respectable games on there own.

This also applies to every computer system at the time, and if certain arcade ports looked weak on the Amiga, then they generally looked even weaker on all the other mainstream computers at the time.
(Apart from lame st ports to amiga).
As for the ST, the way i see it is that the ST is an A500 but with all the cool bits taken out!!!

I also see other system comparisons like the speccy/cpc464 vs c64 in the same way as i view the amiga vs st.
The speccy/cpc haven't got all the cool custom chips the c64 has like the sid and vic chips, to make gaming superior and smoother.
Just like the st hasn't got the custom chips the amiga has for better gaming capabilities!

for Outrun and such: do anybody remember the scaling routines of the 3d section of unreal? I think that with a bit of tweaking those could be used for doing a more decent version!

About frontier a little curiosuty: did you ever realize italy is missing in the Earth map? We italians supposed was a passive-aggressive pun of Braben to us due to the then high piracy rates on our country so that italy "does not exist" in its market

Quote:
Originally Posted by TMR View Post
It's only crazy from a consumer's perspective though; the publishers looked at the two machines, realised they could "get away with" developing on the ST then shoehorning the results into the Amiga afterwards and, since that saved quite a bit of money, that seemed like a feckin' brilliant idea!

Not that i'm cynical or anything... =-)
You kidding? all the bad blood of Amigans towards ST is because of THIS original sin of the developers - whoops - greedy publishers!!!

Last edited by saimon69; 08 September 2014 at 20:02. Reason: strikethrough
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Old 08 September 2014, 20:06   #455
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Epic was also slightly faster in Atari ST.
Well, about 8 mhz cpu ST, 7 Amiga 500 and if in addition, no special Amiga chips were used..
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Old 08 September 2014, 21:04   #456
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It's a legend vitux. for 2 more frames per sec, there's nothing legendary.

Oh about Spain : Just look how the spanish market was plagued by globally poor atari ST ports on amiga (Lorna, Viaje al centro de la tierra to name a few).

For viaje, i have discovered that the coders have made it to the point where the amiga version uses ST files, with no shame, and all software driven again in 68000.

Last edited by TCD; 08 September 2014 at 21:16. Reason: Enough OT now.
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Old 08 September 2014, 22:52   #457
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Epic was also slightly faster in Atari ST.
Well, about 8 mhz cpu ST, 7 Amiga 500 and if in addition, no special Amiga chips were used..
The argument of the ST being marginally faster than the Amiga using 3d seems mostly untrue, there's no other way of saying it, the speed increase if any is so slight that it's hardly worth noting. You mentioned Epic, that would be another good comparison video to make :-) It may help destroy this myth..Or not.
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Old 09 September 2014, 00:12   #458
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The argument of the ST being marginally faster than the Amiga using 3d seems mostly untrue, there's no other way of saying it, the speed increase if any is so slight that it's hardly worth noting. You mentioned Epic, that would be another good comparison video to make :-) It may help destroy this myth..Or not.
Atari ST coders were just better at some point getting stuff out of 68k
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Old 09 September 2014, 00:23   #459
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well, when i look at the best made amiga games, i see that amiga coders got the best out of the machine. What's the point of mastering the 68000 to the maximum on amiga, is there any convenience out of gaining some cycles ?
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Old 09 September 2014, 00:37   #460
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Early vector games that didn't use the Amiga hardware properly, the ST was indeed slightly faster, though it is negligible that you'd actually instantly see the difference.

As more titles started to lead on Amiga, so the blitter was used for filling, and I can assure you, using the CPU for drawing and blitter for filling was faster than just using the CPU on the ST.

As for Epic being faster on ST, i'm not sure thats true. By then, DID were leading on Amiga.

Only way Epic is faster on ST is if the Amiga is using 5 bitplanes and the ST is only using 4.
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