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Old 06 September 2014, 18:17   #421
lordofchaos
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Quote:
Originally Posted by s2325 View Post
Atari ST version should have faster and more smooth intro but for some reason not. Almost all vector games are slightly faster on ST.
That's what I thought too, was really surprised to see them running virtually identical ..Although when scanning through the individual frames during the edit the Atari is ahead, but really difficult to notice during live playback.
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Old 07 September 2014, 04:07   #422
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This is a legend. I have one amiga and one ST running side by side, and at best the ST has 1 or 2 images more displayed on this game. you talk about a feat ! lol

The ST is in no way faster than the amiga (i mean by this REALLY faster). When we say the amiga is faster or at least has game which runs faster on amiga, it really is, and not this "ahah i have 2 images displayed per sec more than the amiga version.... the ST is really faster than the amiga XD".
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Old 07 September 2014, 09:03   #423
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Frontier: Elite II was another 3d game with filled polygons that didn't use the blitter for area filling.

The only blitter usage seems to be in clearing the frame buffer.
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Old 07 September 2014, 10:57   #424
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Originally Posted by dlfrsilver View Post
This is a legend. I have one amiga and one ST running side by side, and at best the ST has 1 or 2 images more displayed on this game. you talk about a feat ! lol

The ST is in no way faster than the amiga (i mean by this REALLY faster). When we say the amiga is faster or at least has game which runs faster on amiga, it really is, and not this "ahah i have 2 images displayed per sec more than the amiga version.... the ST is really faster than the amiga XD".
Seems your right dlfrsilver, I was always lead to believe by my ST owning buddies that the majority of 3d games were quicker on the Atari, looking at it now this seems like bollocks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mc6809e View Post
Frontier: Elite II was another 3d game with filled polygons that didn't use the blitter for area filling.

The only blitter usage seems to be in clearing the frame buffer.

There must be a reason why he didn't use the blitter more on this game for optimisation, surely someone like Braben with his massive brain would have figured it out, or maybe just a time issue.

Last edited by lordofchaos; 07 September 2014 at 11:05.
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Old 07 September 2014, 11:28   #425
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Braben was an ST fanboy. I read some interview with him bragging out how "better" (hum) the ST was aside the amiga. Same about Steve Bak (but he finally changed his mind in the end i think )
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Old 07 September 2014, 12:04   #426
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It's faster initially as yo can see the videos getting out of sync and then by the end the Amiga seems to have caught up? It's very slow and jerky - I think I never played this on anything less the A1200 at 28mhz as I don't remember it being a slideshow...
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Old 07 September 2014, 12:14   #427
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I've watched the intro hundreds of times but I have never noticed that the engines on your craft at the beginning are spinning - I guess 060 is the way to go?

[ Show youtube player ]
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Old 07 September 2014, 12:44   #428
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Ok - just played it on my 1200 030 50mhz and I can see the revolving engines - I always thought that it was just dodgy polygons! Still find the lighting effects (I guess that's what they are supposed to be) very distracting.

On a plus - doesn't seem much slower on the 030 than the 060 video.

Also, changed from PAL to NTSC on boot up and I think it is running quicker? Certainly the music is quicker and you get the benefit of a larger image. I don't think it seems less smooth? Perhaps a comparison video between PAl and NTSC should be made?
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Old 07 September 2014, 15:54   #429
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Frontier was never made to be played on anything less than an 030...Anything less at your own peril. NTSC will give it a small performance boost, but tiny..
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Old 07 September 2014, 18:34   #430
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lordofchaos View Post
Frontier was never made to be played on anything less than an 030...Anything less at your own peril. NTSC will give it a small performance boost, but tiny..
lol, I must be nuts then. I see people moaning about speed etc etc on lots of games. I never even noticed. I still enjoy Frontier on a stock CD32 just like I did on my A500 (1MB).
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Old 07 September 2014, 18:49   #431
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There must be a reason why he didn't use the blitter more on this game for optimisation, surely someone like Braben with his massive brain would have figured it out, or maybe just a time issue.
The irritating thing about about these ST ports that use software area fill even on the Amiga version is that these software area fill algorithms mostly amount to drawing horizontal lines -- a task that's easy to set the blitter up for, and fast if you don't bother to actually use line mode. You can just set the blitter to copy a small segment of a previously stored 320 pixel horizontal line.

So the programmer doesn't even need to use the Amiga's area fill option to get extra speed -- just basic blits.

Still too much trouble, apparently.
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Old 07 September 2014, 22:21   #432
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The irritating thing about about these ST ports that use software area fill even on the Amiga version is that these software area fill algorithms mostly amount to drawing horizontal lines -- a task that's easy to set the blitter up for, and fast if you don't bother to actually use line mode. You can just set the blitter to copy a small segment of a previously stored 320 pixel horizontal line.
interesting point.
do you know how many blitter registers CPU have to write to do such a operation and how many cycles it eats?
Am I right that, you have to repeat that blitter init operation for each bitplane?
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Old 08 September 2014, 07:15   #433
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I have some questions, since I'm old commodore/amiga user and never have any experince with Atari/Atari ST. I'm interested - when You compare Atari ST is it more close to Amiga 500 or 1200, and is there any games that was made for Atari ST to look better than on Amiga (I have seen some YT comparisions that made Amiga games better) or be only Atari ST exlcusive with great graphic and gamepaly?
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Old 08 September 2014, 07:38   #434
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Originally Posted by Gzegzolka View Post
I have some questions, since I'm old commodore/amiga user and never have any experince with Atari/Atari ST. I'm interested - when You compare Atari ST is it more close to Amiga 500 or 1200, and is there any games that was made for Atari ST to look better than on Amiga (I have seen some YT comparisions that made Amiga games better) or be only Atari ST exlcusive with great graphic and gamepaly?
The original Atari st is usually compared to the A500, the st is basically an A500 but without all of the A500's custom chips.

There are upgraded models of the st that are comparable to the A500 and A1200, but the original st is weaker then an A500!
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Old 08 September 2014, 09:50   #435
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Originally Posted by Gzegzolka View Post
I have some questions, since I'm old commodore/amiga user and never have any experince with Atari/Atari ST. I'm interested - when You compare Atari ST is it more close to Amiga 500 or 1200, and is there any games that was made for Atari ST to look better than on Amiga (I have seen some YT comparisions that made Amiga games better) or be only Atari ST exlcusive with great graphic and gamepaly?
The Atari ST wasn't initially designed for games but as an affordable home computer with a MC68000 CPU so it's more comparable to the low end Apple Macintosh machines ("Power without the price").

The Amiga was designed from the ground up as a gaming or multi-media machine and has some additional chips for graphics processing. However, those capabilities are quite limited compared to the arcade machines of that time. Most of the game companies have chosen the lowest common denominator of both machines especially for arcade ports.
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Old 08 September 2014, 12:13   #436
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which was a crazy choice since the ST was not made at all for arcade ports.
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Old 08 September 2014, 12:33   #437
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Originally Posted by AnimaInCorpore View Post
The Amiga was designed from the ground up as a gaming or multi-media machine and has some additional chips for graphics processing. However, those capabilities are quite limited compared to the arcade machines of that time.
Actually, the Amiga 1000 was on par with arcade games from around 1985-1987:

Atari System 1
Atari System 2
Sega System 16A
Capcom 68000
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Old 08 September 2014, 12:34   #438
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which was a crazy choice since the ST was not made at all for arcade ports.
The C64 and ZX Spectrum weren't either but obviously there was a market for it.

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Originally Posted by MagerValp View Post
Actually, the Amiga 1000 was on par with arcade games from around 1985-1987:

Atari System 1
Atari System 2
Sega System 16A
Capcom 68000
On par?

Sega System 16A vs Amiga 1000:

MC68000 @ 10 MHz vs 7.1 MHz.
320 x 224 vs 320 x 200.
128 Sprites on screen at one time, 2 tile layers, 1 text layer, 1 sprite layer with hardware sprite zooming, translucent shadows vs 8 Sprites, 32 colors for background.

Last edited by TCD; 08 September 2014 at 14:36. Reason: Back-to-back posts merged.
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Old 08 September 2014, 14:13   #439
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actually, for miggy, it's 320x256 or even 384*288 overscan iirc and then there's the blitter for all the sprite/scrolling tricks and extra colors plus paula for sampled sound. So, yeah, it was "on par", at least on the right hands.
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Old 08 September 2014, 14:58   #440
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^ +1
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