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Old 30 July 2009, 16:39   #201
killergorilla
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I'm fine with that, everyone fine with that?

Good. Case closed.

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Old 30 July 2009, 16:43   #202
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KG, I think we resolved the whole story almost 20 years ago, but there's always somebody living in a world of fantasy.

Oh, btw: Amiga rulez, ST sux. Thread closed.
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Old 30 July 2009, 16:44   #203
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@Goldrunner Don't worry, I was only messing around a bit there. I did have a spectrum/Ages machines back in the mid-late 80's although my friend (who, funnily enuff owned a blinking Atari 520 ST FM would you believe!) told me about his grandads Amiga 500 (I never used one tho before that special christmas day in 1991)...

I find the whole Atari/Amiga thing as a bit of comedy these days. Still have arguments with an Atari elitest here at work

Weird, I should be greatful to the friend who was an Atarian for showing me the Amiga way... but I'm not because when I got the Amiga he was jealous! I kid you not he even stopped walking home from school with me because of it... and thus history was made, I became angry, usual playground debates of greatness of the 68000 series and all those gooey custom chips and I'm prattling on again with loss of productivity at work

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheCyberDruid View Post
This thread was almost settled (except for s2325 'findings' and Paul_s usual rants )
Oi! what's that supposed mean... 'rants' indeed oh yeah, there he goes again
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Old 30 July 2009, 17:15   #204
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Goldrunner View Post
No, he said it is pixel identical not code identical. What he does say is that both are based on similiar code which what you expect when both machines use the same processor.

He goes on about the ST version using the well known feature of palette switching every cycle to simulate 4096 colours on screen. This is actually an ST only feature that he obviously added to make the ST version better. Yet, you still state they are code identical.

Once again, I ask you for the proof that David Braben never used any feature of the Amiga's custom chips? Also, if he didn't use them was it because he could'nt with a pure 3D game? I have proved he used an ST only feature, lets see if you can do the same.
The calculation parts are at least identical. The fact ST version use this 4096 colors trick is good ! the main thing for me on 3D games is speed.
if he had used custom chips, it would have delested a piece of work from the CPU, and it would have sped the game.

Also, i have owned a CPC 6128 that was my first machine. We all know it can't scroll like a C64, but it had excellent conversion from Atari ST. I love it for that, not counting the games that used excellent tricks. I then saw first games on atari ST at a friend's home. I played WOD, rick dangerous, r-type, twinworld, new zealand story, etc..... It was good until i got my amiga. All those game had mostly better sound, video, gfx. Even today,
when i play on my STE, i have a lot more games on it, but games are better on amiga, even if greatly coded on ST. The fact is the comparing always happen since i play on both machines. And 99% of the time, amiga versions are better. Only exceptions like Satan, after the war, (Introduction has not been incorporated on amiga.... pfff loosers > ),
the games are better on commodore machine. it's not fanboing (tm) it's reality. I'm more bragging about coding method. The fact that some games are bad on amiga not because the amiga is above everything, but because it's badly coded. And when an atarist comes up saying 'puh, the game is bad on my machine because it's not coded nor optimized for an atari ST',
he's forgetting that even with good programming, the game will be toned down. Due to the hardware. Once again it's not bashing, it's reality.
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Old 30 July 2009, 17:41   #205
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dlfrsilver View Post
... that even with good programming, the game will be toned down. Due to the hardware. Once again it's not bashing, it's reality.
Yes "toned downed" and not "crap"
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Old 30 July 2009, 17:51   #206
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When toned down, the game loses his qualities.... Look what happened with most
coin-op conversions ; to cope with the target machine, it lacks colors (can't do otherwise), some musics/fx are absent, and the playability is not as good.

Alas, most toned down games are crap. Because the final result is disappointing.
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Old 30 July 2009, 17:52   #207
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dlfrsilver View Post
The calculation parts are at least identical. The fact ST version use this 4096 colors trick is good ! the main thing for me on 3D games is speed.
if he had used custom chips, it would have delested a piece of work from the CPU, and it would have sped the game.
well, the problem is, Amiga's custom chips are geared towards 2D games, sprites, scrolling, etc. They're not particularly useful for 3D stuff (which were not the 'hot stuff' when the custom chips were designed). That's why Atari has the edge here with the 'slightly' faster processor.
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Old 30 July 2009, 17:52   #208
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Si-Pie View Post
, so the 68000 runs at full speed most of the time if there is no blitter DMA interference.
Some of that was a quote from the Amiga Hardware Reference manual .
Precisely my point, I did say when the blitter was running flat out. I also have the Amiga Hardware Reference manual on my shelf, along with the Atari ST's and sadly I still remember how to use Karnaugh maps to work out Blitter minterms!

I coded mainly coin-op conversions on Amiga and ST using the MegaST @ 16MHz connected to the target machines parallel port using a proprietary development system. Later I moved onto a 386DX40 PC using SNASM to the Amiga. It was normal to use a development machine for assembling and running code monitors remotely, so you could watch memory and single step etc whilst the game was running on the target.
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Old 30 July 2009, 18:12   #209
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Old 30 July 2009, 18:14   #210
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dlfrsilver View Post
Dynamic palettizing is the palette changed dynamically during the game. It's used in Golden Axe in order to counter the lack of color. You can check the effect on level 1 when you go thru the 1st level part to the rock part, and the rock part to the Boss area. Dynamic palettizing is common in coin-op machines....
Ah understood, I forgot about that - just checked the source code

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Originally Posted by dlfrsilver View Post
I stop you right here. The amiga was not really supported because most coders were only used to code mono-CPU machines like the atari ST at first. It's known for a fact that the amiga custom chips are not easy to code and use. This has nothing to do with the price.
Amiga hardware was straight forward once there was info available.

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Take a look at Mercs code, crippled of TRAP instructions and no hardware calls !. The game is slow as hell like most US gold that were straight ST ports.
Exactly at first they were just ropey ST ports.

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Originally Posted by dlfrsilver View Post
We had unambitious games, poor colors, rubbish sounds, poor playability in many cases.... For how many good ones ? Really bad ST conversion because the games to convert where almost impossible to port from the amiga to the ST. Look at Jim Power, Mr nutz, Lionheart. Those games are only possible on machines using co-processors and custom chips !
I'm glad you agree with my points.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dlfrsilver View Post
Ok, your move creep Which programs did you code for Amiga ? We are all here very curious to know your deeds
Golden Axe to name one lol. No need for language like that though, unless you're aged 9 I guess

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Originally Posted by dlfrsilver View Post
On amiga the 68K task is to drive the custom chips
Of course it was.

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Good coders know how to bypass this..... it's too limited to be used...
I know, and a sort routine of mine was used in loads of games to quickly determine the best sprites splits to use for a given scene.

Quote:
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Bullshit, on the moment you code for A500,1000,2000 , it's up to you as coder to respect the compatibility. About timing issue,
I wasn't talking about the speeds of the hardware, I was talking about the hardware timing. With one game there were issues where half of a hardware sprite would glitch on some A500's whilst on others it didn't. It was because the memory timing was slightly out (after getting an oscilloscope on it). The DMA system couldn't be pushed 100% reliably. May have been better on A600 or A1200, but they were not about in sufficient numbers to dedicate time to them.

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Yes that was the common rules to kick the OS and then took over.
Really, thanks for agreeing.
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Old 30 July 2009, 19:16   #211
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dlfrsilver
On amiga the 68K task is to drive the custom chips
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricardo
Of course it was.
Except for the fact that there is a whole array of productivity software for the Amiga platform that doesn't even use the custom chips. I'll say it again: The Amiga is not a games machine Amigas are general purpose computers, same for ST, C64, MSX, Spectrum and what have you. It depends on what a machine can do, not what it's used for the most.

Example: Back in the day when I was living with my mother (I was about 13 or something), my neighbor (who's an architect) had an Atari with a monochrome monitor to run a $2500 program called Arkey which he used to design buildings. The company he worked/workes for chose this program because it was cheaper than the alternative while doing everything they needed to do with it. Not really a game, is it? And it's nothing an Amiga can't handle.

Last edited by Thorham; 30 July 2009 at 19:46.
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Old 30 July 2009, 19:21   #212
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Well well, It seems we have on board Richard Costello The good coder behind Golden Axe port

So pal, one end for all, which is the most accurate port of Golden Axe between the amiga port and the megadrive port ? Since you coded it on amiga, i guess you can hint us ?
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Old 30 July 2009, 19:26   #213
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Everbody knows that the Mega Drive versions is superior. And i don't care about specific hardware tricks or better colors. Playabilty is the important point here (plus the 3-button MD control).
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Old 30 July 2009, 19:27   #214
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Old 30 July 2009, 19:32   #215
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Hey let's him talk about what he saw and what he has done
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Old 30 July 2009, 19:34   #216
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Nice to meet you Ric - Golden Axe is probably the finest Amiga Arcade conversions
: in fact some think this version is better than the Sega version
What happend to Golden Axe 2-3
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Old 30 July 2009, 19:39   #217
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Some guys also think that there are good Street Fighter II ports for the Amiga.
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Old 30 July 2009, 19:40   #218
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This thread should've been called: Amiga games vs ST games
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Old 30 July 2009, 19:45   #219
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Quote:
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Some guys also think that there are good Street Fighter II ports for the Amiga.
Is that it? - Because I Like SSF2 - the playability is good - Dont you think I know about good SFII conversions and King Of Fighters

Golden Axe is a very good conversion not only thought by me but other retro gamers.
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Old 30 July 2009, 19:49   #220
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This is far too off-topic unless we change it to "Amiga, ST vs Mega Drive & SNES" or something.

The Amiga isn't suitable for "6-button masher Beat'em ups". The playabilty in the SNES, PC-Engine or Mega Drive versions is far better. Better controls, animations, graphics. Compare it yourself.

Quote:
Golden Axe is a very good conversion not only thought by me but other retro gamers.
I would say it's average. 6/10

Last edited by Retro-Nerd; 30 July 2009 at 20:00.
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