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Old 23 September 2008, 12:58   #21
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It seems to be still so uncertain

Problably a TOSEC expert can turn light on
 
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Old 23 September 2008, 13:57   #22
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well... there are TOSEC experts, (the guys who invented the nomenclature or *cough* mantain *cough* the site and TIM), yes there are.
but since they rely anyway on the info provided by the people who try and test the games, namely anybody...

so there's no such thing as perfection, it's a work in progress as any collection is, and as WIPs go, this one is a great job still imho.
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Old 23 September 2008, 14:27   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by marco pedrana View Post
so there's no such thing as perfection, it's a work in progress as any collection is, and as WIPs go, this one is a great job still imho.
Marco, surely i agree

My posts reflect only my personality and i'm very curious

So let's go much deeper

I think with a tool (i never dumped a disk) a floppy is read and an ADF file is produced

Well, ADF file is always produced, even read errors are encountered ?
If not, this could mean that each ADF is a perfect dump, so no need of [!] tag !
But also exists the [b] tag, that suggests me that also ADF can be produced with read errors !

I hope the point of confusion (for me) is clear, someone help is welcome
 
Old 23 September 2008, 14:33   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Another World View Post

Well, ADF file is always produced, even read errors are encountered ?
If not, this could mean that each ADF is a perfect dump, so no need of [!] tag !
But also exists the [b] tag, that suggests me that also ADF can be produced with read errors !
Well, as i said before. The [!] in TOSEC means that this game works to the end without any errors. No graphic or sound glitches, no missing levels, no checksum errors etc...

Search for Flashback, Damien made intensive testings with his IPF to ADF copied game. At the end the game got an [!].

Imho the most important dumping flag, this sort out all the broken/crappy cracks for each game in TOSEC.
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Old 23 September 2008, 14:38   #25
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That's a good example Retro-Nerd

Here's the thread guys: Fixing Flashback versions.. Ongoing..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Retro-Nerd View Post
Imho the most important dumping flag, this sort out all the broken/crappy cracks for each game in TOSEC.
This thread is also quite useful: The bad cracks / 100% working games thread
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Old 23 September 2008, 14:39   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Retro-Nerd View Post
Well, as i said before. The [!] in TOSEC means that this game works till the end without any errors. No graphic or sound glitches, no missing levels, no checksum errors etc...

Search for Flashback, Damien made intensive testings with his IPF to ADF copied game. At the end the game got an [!].

Imho the most important dumping flag, this sort out all the broken/crappy cracks for each game in TOSEC.
We really need that for the Amiga disk dumps. I think until now only Damien made suggestions and changed the disk names
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Old 23 September 2008, 14:42   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheCyberDruid View Post
We really need that for the Amiga disk dumps. I think until now only Damien made suggestions and changed the disk names
But the [!] is hard to get. Who should play all the (mostly) cracked game to the end?

Console game dumps have this [!] flag too, but in this case it means they are technically perfect cartridge backups.
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Old 23 September 2008, 14:43   #28
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Originally Posted by Retro-Nerd View Post
Well, as i said before. The [!] in TOSEC means that this game works to the end without any errors. No graphic or sound glitches, no missing levels, no checksum errors etc...

Search for Flashback, Damien made intensive testings with his IPF to ADF copied game. At the end the game got an [!].

Imho the most important dumping flag, this sort out all the broken/crappy cracks for each game in TOSEC.
So there's confusion also on what "verified good dump" means, i see

I think that [!] doesn't mean 100% working, or not
 
Old 23 September 2008, 14:43   #29
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Originally Posted by Another World View Post
But also exists the [b] tag, that suggests me that also ADF can be produced with read errors !
I dont know, if [b] tag always means, that dump is really bad.
See this:

http://eab.abime.net/showpost.php?p=...&postcount=215
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Old 23 September 2008, 14:46   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Retro-Nerd View Post
But the [!] is hard to get. Who should play all the (mostly) cracked game to the end?
Exactly, it's an impossible task

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheCyberDruid
We really need that for the Amiga disk dumps
GameBase Amiga aims to do this, as you can imagine it takes a very long time to find / work out the best version of games for use. Belgarath does a sterling job
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Old 23 September 2008, 14:46   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Another World View Post
So there's confusion also on what "verified good dump" means, i see

I think that [!] doesn't mean 100% working, or not
Of course it means that this games are working 100%. But you have to compare all the cracked versions with an original to be sure that everything is ok.

Last edited by Retro-Nerd; 23 September 2008 at 15:02.
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Old 23 September 2008, 15:01   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheCyberDruid View Post
We really need that for the Amiga disk dumps. I think until now only Damien made suggestions and changed the disk names
that's true only for the [!] flag fortunately, but names corrections gets submitted by anybody who spot an error.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Retro-Nerd View Post
Of course it means that this games are working 100%. But you have to compare all the cracked versions with an original to be that everything is ok.
there was a tool written by somebody (sorry i remember the avatar, not the name: that' Dartagnan dog french cartoon, if my memory serves) here at EAB that was meant to check CRC and diffs, but the only sure way to check a game is playing it :/
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Old 23 September 2008, 15:02   #33
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Originally Posted by Retro-Nerd View Post
Of course it means that this games are working 100%. But you have to compare all the cracked versions with an original to be sure if everything is ok.


Really sure of this ?
"Dump" for me is a technical word with a precise meaning
and "Verified" also (you never verified a CD after write on it ?)

[!] 100% working game

if i read this i can give you reason, otherwise not

I really don't agree this time, if the [!] tag IN PRACTICE means something
while the description of the tag WITH EVIDENCE means other

Sorry guys
 
Old 23 September 2008, 15:04   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Another World View Post


Really sure of this ?
"Dump" for me is a technical word with a precise meaning
and "Verified" also (you never verified a CD after write on it ?)

[!] 100% working game

if i read this i can give you reason, otherwise not

I really don't agree this time, if the [!] tag IN PRACTICE means something
while the description of the tag WITH EVIDENCE means other

Sorry guys
Sure matey, but that's your problem.
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Old 23 September 2008, 15:09   #35
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Problem is a big word

Probably i give to the description of [!] tag a "wrong" technical meaning, not more than this

 
Old 23 September 2008, 15:18   #36
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This [!] flag only means that you can play a specific cracked version flawless like an original bought game, nothing more.

There's no need for a technically dump verification, all ADF dumps should be 100%. Of course there were/are a lot dumps from dodgy discs, but TOSEC sort them all out, if somebody report them as broken.
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Old 23 September 2008, 15:20   #37
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Hi all,

about the [a] flag:
Quote:
Originally Posted by latest tnc doc
Alternate [a]
An alternate version of the software with small differences like the readme files, etc.

The variants are:
[a] Alternate version
[a Descriptor] Alternate (including reason)

Some examples of descriptors:
highscore = Only a highscore table entry is different from a non [a] image
readme = Only a readme file is different from a non [a] image
Currently the 3 descriptors used more are:
  • Floppyshop anti-virus | 65
  • no cracktro | 32
  • highscore | 8 (+1 Highscore and +3 highscores)
please note that renamers should always try to use lowercase in descriptors when possible and try to use already existent ones (like using [a readme] instead of [a readme file] )

Also in some systems / sets there is the problem of the set being modified when its launched in some emus / systems so the renamer should pay attention and not create different versions of a set just to make the dat grow :S

About [!]
Quote:
Originally Posted by latest tnc doc
Known Good Dump [!]
Verified good dump.

The variants are:
[!] Verified good dump
The [!] flag should only be used to mark 100% confirmed valid dumps taken from original. Note that there can't be a [!2] :P So this means that a verified good dump is unique for one set. The problem using this is that it is not easy to know when they are valid even if you play it till the end and it works, so this should be used properly other than mark images that seem to be good [!], because you can end up marking an image you found and works till the end "Tosec is Alive (2008)(TOSEC)[!]" and then someone with the original disk dumps it, scans it and it has different crc, not being identified as "Tosec is Alive (2008)(TOSEC)[!]". Even if the set seems 100% correct there are lots of cases that are impossible (or really hard) to know if it was altered in some way.

idoru could explain this better if you still have doubts but he currently is MIA/really busy with some stuff, anyway you can check the example of toseciso dats.
A set is only marked [!] when it was dumped by 2 diferent persons from original the original media and the crcs match

example:
Amiga Developer CD v1.1 (1996-05)(Schatztruhe)[!] -> dumped 2 times or more.
Amiga Golden 20 (1996)(Media Verlagsgesellschaft) -> dumped only once so not a verified good dump

There are 4698 [!] sets in tosec dats.

Hope i explained it well, anything more just ask
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Old 23 September 2008, 15:24   #38
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Quote:
A set is only marked [!] when it was dumped by 2 diferent persons from original the original media and the crcs match
This decription is for CD image dumps, not for disk dumps and in particular not for cracked ADF images.
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Old 23 September 2008, 15:49   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Retro-Nerd View Post
This description is for CD image dumps, not for disk dumps and in particular not for cracked ADF images.
like i said it was an example used in toseciso I don't know much about ADFs and i'm not a renamer so don't know for sure thats why i said idoru should explain better.
I maybe talking sh*t here given my lack of knowledge in Amiga but if it was equal to old dos games, sets would be cracked by scene groups and distributed over web and disk copies, so if today i pick my disks and start dumping them when they are just a disk copy from some guy (x N) i can't know if its a good dump or if it was altered in the way to me by some unknown reason... thats why i thought [!] where only used to mark dumps that where verified to be good taken only from original carts/disks/discs/...

But like i said i don't know much about Amiga and you just have to look at Amiga - Games - [ADF] to see that there are some (13) good dumps with [cr SKR] flag so i guess i was a bit wrong in this field anyway i still think [!] should be used carefully so we will not end with lots of new sets marked [!] when they may have problems. Since Amiga dats are almost all maintained by idoru (especially Games - [ADF]) and he is the project leader, he should be the one to clear things off about [!] flag, we just have to way for him to come back )

Other note to [b] flag, some sets (8656) marked bad dumps and some of them are just bad tagged probably because the renamer who tested it couldn't make it run on the emulator he used, so if possible always try to use more than one emulator (or the real thing ) before marking sets as [b].

Bye
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Old 23 September 2008, 16:21   #40
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I'll try and clarify the [a] and [i] flags with regards to naming adf's

Basically if a game is played and is completed, and the disk structure is not damaged etc then the game will receive a [i] flag which confirms it has been played and completed, and disk structure checked etc..

I basically check the disk structure myself and then if I can stomach it I play the game etc..

the [a] flag is used when 2 images are identical but there is something slightly different, for example if a byte is out of place the game will be [a]. If I know why the image is different I'll say why for example [a highscore]

etc
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