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Old 04 July 2008, 01:11   #141
Methanoid
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Why do you guys have to be such trolls? If you have nothing nice to say, say nothing at all. How discouraging to these awesome guys who are trying their hardest to serve a community that is so full of ungrateful skeptics.

This negetivity is only hurting the Amiga community. Please try and be more positive! Think of how good it would be if we really do get these awesome new Amigas that can run all the classic software as well as being capable of so much more, and it'll be cheaper than a second hand Amiga from eBay. It may be wishful thinking, but sometimes if you're really positive about something, you get what you wish for.
There's no place like home There's no place like home There's no place like home

If you just want it that bit harder it will happen!!!

Tell me, did you hold your breath until your parents gave in to you when you were (still are?) a child.

Thanks, this post is one of the few that actually made me snigger. Not a full blown laugh but a good honest snigger. Naive, but funny!!!
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Old 04 July 2008, 11:34   #142
MazinKaesar
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Really I don't know if I will buy one... :|
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Old 04 July 2008, 19:35   #143
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If it makes it to the market and it is classic amiga stuff compatible and it is not super expensive I'll want to buy one
I'm hoping it makes it but I'm not holding my breath, still I wish the developers all the luck in the world because it would be cool to see the project succeed!!
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Old 05 July 2008, 13:26   #144
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Thanks, this post is one of the few that actually made me snigger. Not a full blown laugh but a good honest snigger. Naive, but funny!!!
It's not naive. What do you think will get us closer to our destination:
1. Constant criticism and negativity.
or...
2. A positive encouraging outlook.

Do you remember that whole 'Bye...' saga which started because the developer of TLSFMem had enough of the negativity of an Amiga user? Did the comments of that Amiga user help us in the long run? Hell f*cking no!

No one asked the Thomas Hirsch to start the Natami project, but now we know about it should we should be glad he's got this far and hope that something tangible comes out of it. That is not naivety.

@all thinking about ASIC stuff
These companies may be able to offer us affordable ASIC options for future Natami revisions:
http://www.easic.com/
http://viasic.com/
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Old 05 July 2008, 21:27   #145
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pipe dreams maybe but i for one am still encourgaged by the fact that people still believe
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Old 06 July 2008, 02:35   #146
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I'll get excited when I see something delivered. Too many broken promises. False dawns.

Hmm where is that PPC Shark and that Coldfire Dragon and ACK's PPC card... only Jens Schoenfeld has shown himself able to deliver and thats cos he is realistic what he announces/plans.
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Old 06 July 2008, 03:33   #147
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I'll get excited when I see something delivered. Too many broken promises. False dawns.

Hmm where is that PPC Shark and that Coldfire Dragon and ACK's PPC card... only Jens Schoenfeld has shown himself able to deliver and thats cos he is realistic what he announces/plans.
But Thomas Hirsch and the Natami team have, to my knowledge, not broken any promises they made to the Amiga community in the past, so you're basing your criticism of them on the poor track record of OTHER PEOPLE. Can you not see how absurd that is?

I'm not asking you to be excited. If you can't offer constructive criticism it would be best to try and ignore the project IMO. Be positive, give advice, or shut up, that's what I'm asking for.
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Old 06 July 2008, 04:11   #148
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Forgive my ignorance, what's a 'hardened' FPGA? (I know what an FPGA is)
and what's an ASIC?
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Old 06 July 2008, 04:43   #149
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Forgive my ignorance, what's a 'hardened' FPGA? (I know what an FPGA is)
and what's an ASIC?
A simple overview:

FPGA - Fully (re-)programmable chip (I'll skip any additional info as you said you're familiar with FPGAs).
'Hardened' FPGA (a.k.a. structured ASIC) - Similar architecture to FPGAs, lowering development costs. Closer (than FPGAs) to ASIC level performance, but none of the FPGAs re-programmability.
ASIC - Custom chip designed specifically for a certain task. Best possible performance but known to be costly to develop. Example of an ASIC? Loads of them, but as we're on an Amiga board let's pick the AGA chipset found in Commodore Amigas.

I'm sure others here can give you more in-depth information if you wish.
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Old 07 July 2008, 14:00   #150
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Originally Posted by HenryCase View Post
But Thomas Hirsch and the Natami team have, to my knowledge, not broken any promises they made to the Amiga community in the past, so you're basing your criticism of them on the poor track record of OTHER PEOPLE. Can you not see how absurd that is?

I'm not asking you to be excited. If you can't offer constructive criticism it would be best to try and ignore the project IMO. Be positive, give advice, or shut up, that's what I'm asking for.
Now now, no need to be rude. Thats the sign of someone who has lost the argument. There is no LAW that says I have to be "positive" (read over-optimistic), "give advice" (sure, my advice is not to hold your breath on this one) or "shut up" (come on then, make me.. thats the kind of silly response you want?)

Just cos someone doesn't agree with you when you wanna fart sunshine about a project that has not delivered a product or anything yet doesn't mean we are not allowed to express our opinion.

Free speech and all - unless you'd rather we only say stuff YOU approve of. It's the internet man, not a Police State!
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Old 07 July 2008, 20:48   #151
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Originally Posted by Cammy View Post
Why do you guys have to be such trolls? If you have nothing nice to say, say nothing at all. How discouraging to these awesome guys who are trying their hardest to serve a community that is so full of ungrateful skeptics.

This negetivity is only hurting the Amiga community. Please try and be more positive! Think of how good it would be if we really do get these awesome new Amigas that can run all the classic software as well as being capable of so much more, and it'll be cheaper than a second hand Amiga from eBay. It may be wishful thinking, but sometimes if you're really positive about something, you get what you wish for.
Ever heard of humor? Do you know that your life will be longer if you smile?? (and you might need this if you know more about amiga community and projects related to good ol' amiga )

As for positive thinking, I still positively think that you'll be able to get good gaming rig + Wii for price of this new system, and of course if this ever get released. Isn't that optimistic??

@ HenryCase - how's thing with Bill's signature negative or critical?? Come on, it's Amiga.inc we're talking about - think a bit postive!
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Old 09 July 2008, 23:25   #152
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Now now, no need to be rude.
I was not being rude, I was being frank.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Methanoid View Post
Thats the sign of someone who has lost the argument.
You're a little misguided. For me to be losing an argument we need to have had an argument in the first place. All I have done is point out why you were wrong. An argument is a two way thing, you need to criticise me if we're going to argue.

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Originally Posted by Methanoid View Post
There is no LAW that says I have to be "positive" (read over-optimistic), "give advice" (sure, my advice is not to hold your breath on this one) or "shut up" (come on then, make me.. thats the kind of silly response you want?)
Since when did I say I was the law? Hahahahaha.

All I'm saying is negativity will get us nowhere good, but positivity might buy us time to get somewhere decent. You're advice is not to hold my breath. Fine, I can at least understand where that attitude comes from. If you want to see something succeed but you don't think it will my advice is to shut up (if you don't have something constructive to say). That might sound a little rude to you, but sometimes it helps to be brash to get a message across.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Methanoid View Post
Just cos someone doesn't agree with you when you wanna fart sunshine about a project that has not delivered a product or anything yet doesn't mean we are not allowed to express our opinion.
I am pointing out that if you're not convinced the project will succeed, and you have nothing constructive to say, your time is better spent discussing other matters. Better for us all (yourself included). Activity in the modern Amiga scene is somewhat limited, and if farting sunshine helps things happen then I'll continue doing so.

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Free speech and all - unless you'd rather we only say stuff YOU approve of. It's the internet man, not a Police State!
Perhaps you need to better understand what free speech means. For me to interfere with your free speech I would need to silence you against your will. I am not doing so. I am, believe it or not, giving you advice (in an unconventional form maybe). I support your right to chat shit on the Internet, I just wish you didn't bother.

Last edited by HenryCase; 09 July 2008 at 23:32.
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Old 09 July 2008, 23:28   #153
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@ HenryCase - how's thing with Bill's signature negative or critical?? Come on, it's Amiga.inc we're talking about - think a bit postive!
Eh? Bill's Signature? No comprende compadre.
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Old 09 July 2008, 23:42   #154
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I have read in this thread that developing an asic is costly, and that needs lot of money, but the c64 dtv runs off an asic and sure the design wasn't that expensive. Or am i wrong?
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Old 10 July 2008, 00:49   #155
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I have read in this thread that developing an asic is costly, and that needs lot of money, but the c64 dtv runs off an asic and sure the design wasn't that expensive. Or am i wrong?
Developing an ASIC can be costly, but companies like EASIC and VIASIC (links shown on this page) offer to cut these prices fairly substantially.

IIRC the C64DTV ASIC had a company funding its manufacture, I doubt Jeri could have raised the funds for the ASIC design without them.
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Old 10 July 2008, 00:54   #156
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the c64 dtv runs off an asic and sure the design wasn't that expensive. Or am i wrong?
You're wrong. Their NRE (non recoverable expendature) would have been in the $100,000's. (Probably somewhere in the middle)

They reportedly got a damn good deal though.

I am pretty sure that Jeri was an employee / contractor for a 3rd party company with a lot of cash.

They worked in a very,very old geometry, directly with the chinese FAB (factory) (probably one who bought all their equipment from another FAB that was being upgraded), they even chose the cheapest chip package, just bond the wafer to the PCB and cover with epoxy glue to keep the cost down.

I would love to know more of the real details (including financing) of the C64DTV project. I have come across a few interesting tidbits. The developers mention in their blogs several times about not being able to make a 100% compatible due to area constraints which were imposed by final prices and profit margins. They also mention that they re-spun the chip (at least 3 times) which must have been an added expense.

The chips that I make, which are not that much more complicated than NatAmi, cost about $3M from concept to working silicon.

Last edited by alexh; 10 July 2008 at 01:16.
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Old 10 July 2008, 02:06   #157
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The chips that I make, which are not that much more complicated than NatAmi, cost about $3M from concept to working silicon.
That's a whole lot of pocket money peoples
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Old 10 July 2008, 02:49   #158
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On the Natami website they already said they weren't going to use an ASIC. The Hardened FPGAs will be cheaper than the ASIC ever would have been. Also, note that the FPGA on the Natami 60 will be large enough to hold the 68070 core along with SuperAGA if and when it comes out.
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Old 10 July 2008, 02:57   #159
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I really hope it can cook bacon perfectly, that'd be swell.
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Old 10 July 2008, 09:22   #160
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We've already had this conversation, hardened ASICs are cheaper... but still in the $200,000 - $300,000 NRE region for production.

Some vendors do offer what is called "shuttle-run" or MPW where the mask only contains one or two dies per wafer instead of the usual 100's (the others on the wafer being other people's projects). The NRE of an MPW is significantly lower as the cost of the masks is shared but the price per chip is much, much higher and if you want production quantities you have to buy a new mask.
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