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Old 18 June 2008, 22:57   #121
Madcrow
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Originally Posted by alexh View Post
This is not speculation:

If they are going to try to use an FPGA it will not run at 400MHz.
If they are going to make an ASIC it will cost them at least $300,000 before they see 1 chip.
The first generation of hardware will be a proof of concept with the SuperAGA running in an FPGA and CPU functions provided by an overclocked '060. I think the ASIC is just a wish for the future and ultimate goal, not something they will insist on before they ship anything.
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Old 19 June 2008, 02:41   #122
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Go Natami, i'm waiting!

This is gonna be the future Amiga i've been yearning for
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Old 20 June 2008, 02:58   #123
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alexh View Post
This is not speculation:

If they are going to try to use an FPGA it will not run at 400MHz.
If they are going to make an ASIC it will cost them at least $300,000 before they see 1 chip.
Perhaps you should read what actually gets said by the Natami team and not rely on EAB rumours:
http://www.natami.net/knowledge.php?b=2&note=237
"D - Custom Chip complete redesigned 600 MHz - Several GigaHerz"
"Option D is too expensive for the AMIGA market."

An Altera Hardcopy version of the N68070/SuperAGA isn't likely to cost $300,000 USD for one chip, that seems to be the most likely route they'll take with the design.
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Old 20 June 2008, 03:48   #124
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Originally Posted by HenryCase View Post
Perhaps you should read what actually gets said by the Natami team and not rely on EAB rumours:
http://www.natami.net/knowledge.php?b=2&note=237
"D - Custom Chip complete redesigned 600 MHz - Several GigaHerz"
"Option D is too expensive for the AMIGA market."

An Altera Hardcopy version of the N68070/SuperAGA isn't likely to cost $300,000 USD for one chip, that seems to be the most likely route they'll take with the design.
Of course an Altera Hardcopy is just an FPGA for which the ability to flash in new functionality has been permanently removed, so while it IS cheaper than a nomal FPGA, it doesn't perform much better (or any better at all)
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Old 20 June 2008, 04:29   #125
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Of course an Altera Hardcopy is just an FPGA for which the ability to flash in new functionality has been permanently removed, so while it IS cheaper than a nomal FPGA, it doesn't perform much better (or any better at all)
Hmm, you sure about that? Whilst I realise an Altera HardCopy is not a 'true' ASIC, it offers benefits in processing power, power consumption and (potential for lower) cost compared to FPGAs.

Let's compare the Stratix IV FPGA with the HardCopy IV structured ASIC...

http://www.altera.com/products/devic...txiv-index.jsp
http://www.altera.com/products/devic...hciv-index.jsp

From the improved performance link on the Hardcopy IV page above:

"HardCopy® ASIC system development methodology enables you to seamlessly prototype HardCopy IV ASICs using the high-performance Stratix® IV FPGAs at full system speed. HardCopy IV ASICs can provide up to twice the core logic performance over the FPGA prototype device.

The performance improvement is due to:

* Shorter routing using a much smaller die compared to the FPGA
* Fewer logic levels for certain combinatorial logic paths
* Flexibility in HCell macro placement

The performance advantage of HardCopy IV ASICs is further enhanced with the ASIC-strength of the Quartus® II design software. You use synopsys design constraint (SDC)-formatted timing constraints to precisely define and analyze your timing requirements—one SDC for the ASIC and one SDC for the prototyping FPGA. You can also use physical synthesis and incremental compile features to further improve design performance."

Know when to admit when you're wrong?
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Old 20 June 2008, 18:35   #126
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I agree with Bamiga2002!
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Go Natami, i'm waiting!

This is gonna be the future Amiga i've been yearning for
This Natami project is real, i always had a great deal of respect for a guy whose Avatar is a burnette sitted on his lap, with BigGun for nickname and that lives in the "blackforest"
That is why he is one of the "heads" in this project!!!

Last edited by Yoto; 20 June 2008 at 18:48.
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Old 20 June 2008, 19:04   #127
StingRay
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I agree with Bamiga2002!


This Natami project is real, i always had a great deal of respect for a guy whose Avatar is a burnette sitted on his lap, with BigGun for nickname and that lives in the "blackforest"
That is why he is one of the "heads" in this project!!!

Fucking BEST joke EVER! I almost fell off my chair here.
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Old 20 June 2008, 19:20   #128
Yoto
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...I almost fell off my chair here.
Be careful, you may hurt BigGun!!!
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Old 20 June 2008, 19:27   #129
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in case you don't know, there is an actual place in Germany called The Black Forest (Schwartzwald) many years ago I lived quite close to there.
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Old 20 June 2008, 19:33   #130
Yoto
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Everyone knows that kristian, but thank you anyway!

BTW:If you see Schwarzenegger tell him i loved him in "Twins"

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Old 20 June 2008, 19:45   #131
alexh
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Originally Posted by Madcrow View Post
Of course an Altera Hardcopy is just an FPGA for which the ability to flash in new functionality has been permanently removed, so while it IS cheaper than a nomal FPGA, it doesn't perform much better (or any better at all)
FPGA hardening can result in a faster design, but you do not rely on it. Usually you've created your FPGA design with speed bridges and fifos to take into account the performance problems of the FPGA. Taking them out would introduce a risk.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HenryCase View Post
HardCopy IV ASICs can provide up to twice the core logic performance over the FPGA prototype device.
Marketing bull.

But if you are prepared to take the risk (or you have a relatively flat synchronous design with few clocks and no speed bridges) then yes, you can get better clock rates from a hardened FPGA.

Last edited by alexh; 20 June 2008 at 20:01.
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Old 20 June 2008, 19:55   #132
Kristian95
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To: Kristian95

Everyone knows that kristian, but thank you anyway!

BTW:If you see Schwarzenegger tell him i loved him in "Twins"
Hehehe I was going with the "better safe than sorry" attitude

Btw, I am a little embaressed to say that the more I hear from the Governator (on news) on various political issues, the more respect I get for him as a politician.... compared to many US politicians he almost seems sane hehehe
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Old 20 June 2008, 20:02   #133
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He did said he would be back...
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Old 20 June 2008, 20:14   #134
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Originally Posted by Yotoxionomai View Post
Be careful, you may hurt BigGun!!!
No worries, I probably already did when I told him that he's an "incompetent super theorist".

Edit: I should translate his "how to disassemble Kickstart" "tutorial" and post it here. It's the most hilarious "tutorial" I ever read. Too bad it wasn't intended to be funny.

Anyway, you made my day, thanks.

Last edited by StingRay; 20 June 2008 at 20:19.
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Old 20 June 2008, 20:19   #135
HenryCase
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Originally Posted by alexh View Post
Marketing bull.

But if you are prepared to take the risk (or you have a relatively flat synchronous design with few clocks and no speed bridges) then yes, you can get better clock rates from a hardened FPGA.
How is that marketing bull? They said 'up to twice the core logic performance', they did not promise that it would offer that increase every time.

In any case, if the HardCopy relied on snake oil hype they shouldn't have survived long enough to get to their fourth version of the technology, would they?
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Old 20 June 2008, 20:20   #136
Yoto
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No problem, just like BigGun i too "aim to please"!
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Old 03 July 2008, 16:08   #137
Madcrow
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Originally Posted by HenryCase View Post
How is that marketing bull? They said 'up to twice the core logic performance', they did not promise that it would offer that increase every time.

In any case, if the HardCopy relied on snake oil hype they shouldn't have survived long enough to get to their fourth version of the technology, would they?
Not necessarily: it still has a lower cost and the fact that end-users can't tinker with the device as easily.
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Old 03 July 2008, 18:07   #138
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Just two more weeks?

I bet first 1000 units will have Bill McEwen's signature on top cover and print of Shooney's cat.
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Old 03 July 2008, 21:52   #139
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Why do you guys have to be such trolls? If you have nothing nice to say, say nothing at all. How discouraging to these awesome guys who are trying their hardest to serve a community that is so full of ungrateful skeptics.

This negetivity is only hurting the Amiga community. Please try and be more positive! Think of how good it would be if we really do get these awesome new Amigas that can run all the classic software as well as being capable of so much more, and it'll be cheaper than a second hand Amiga from eBay. It may be wishful thinking, but sometimes if you're really positive about something, you get what you wish for.
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Old 03 July 2008, 21:58   #140
_ThEcRoW
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Also, the Natami has a 3d accelerated 32-bit color mode built-in so it should be able to compete with the likes of the Wii or the Playstation 2. (The PS3 and XBox 360 will require a little more work.)
Competing with wii and ps2? lol
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