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Old 16 December 2009, 23:21   #341
wlcina
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Latest news about Natami : the interview (took this month) - look here:
http://www.retroage.net/index.php?op...1&limitstart=2
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Old 16 December 2009, 23:39   #342
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Originally Posted by wlcina View Post
Latest news about Natami : the interview (took this month) - look here:
http://www.retroage.net/index.php?op...1&limitstart=2
Thanks for the link, wlcina!

No-one here can argue with the NatAmi team's objectives. Let us hope that one day soon they reach their goal.
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Old 17 December 2009, 02:25   #343
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Latest news about Natami : the interview (took this month) - look here:
http://www.retroage.net/index.php?op...1&limitstart=2

First they went on about the "68070" and now they are talking about a "68050". I wish they would make up their minds.

Apparently "NatAmi may "feel" 10x faster than a graphics card Amiga."
so what they're really saying is:

"We don't know how fast it will be but we'll float some numbers that sound good to make you drool"

it might be 10 x faster it might be 1000x faster... so ?

"targets in comparison to aga being 50x faster".... 50x faster than AGA again... so what ?

To run AGA stuff faster ? err ok.....

I'm not rubbishing their efforts, I just don't understand WHY. They seem to be all smoke and mirrors - lots of talk and little to show for it. I get that the reasoning behind it is to "replace" aging hardware... so that when there are no miggies left we still get to play Lotus 2 SWOS etc.

Its all very well and good saying they want to develop the biggest baddest fastest and wallet pumpingly expensive Amiga hardware, that is compatible with "Classic" Amiga stuff. But having the hardware won't necessarily "revive" the platform... Lotus 2 will still run like Lotus 2 on the Natami, my A1200 or my PC under winuae. Or is there some big hope that a big company like Ubisoft or Rockstar Games, or hey lets get ambitious here.... Microsoft will get a hardon over "new" hardware that runs a 15 year old operating system just as well as the 15 year old hardware did, and still does and start developing for the "NatAmiga".

Its certainly not going to compete with current PCs/Macs.... and if it cant do that then what is the point ?

When it comes, if it comes, it will be like the Amiga one, Sam flex or winuae on a PC....

You paid "how much!?!?!" to buy a "NEW" system to run 15 year old software on a dead platform ?. Hell I still say that when I look at my A1200

Picking up where commodore left off ? Hmm nice sentiment but thats all it is, sentiment, anyone who beleives different is sadly delusional.

Smoke and Mirrors
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Old 17 December 2009, 02:53   #344
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I want a Natami so I can make an Amiga game with more than 16 colours per playfield in dual playfield mode. And use more sprites with more colours!

For some people, we are just not interested in other computers the same way we're interested in the Amiga. It has so many different ways of doing things, and they're all a little different to other systems. The Natami isn't just for running old Amiga software, but for us to make new Amiga software the traditional way without being so limited, but not without limitations. I know the Natami will be able to handle any game I want to make for it, the game of my dreams will run on it. The AGA version will look like a shoddy arcade port of the Natami original.

And I want to build an arcade cabinet with a Natami in it, since we'll be making arcade quality games for it.
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Old 17 December 2009, 03:14   #345
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If they want to be anything more than a hobby project for the ultra rich they need to find a way of lowering their costs.

Only way I can see this happening is if they hijack an existing mass produced FPGA platform.

Perhaps collaborate with one of the big companies which make FPGA devkits, offer to design & layout their next FPGA devkit for free in exchange for a concession or something.
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Old 17 December 2009, 03:31   #346
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Also, many Amigans are cheap. If it's a complete computer sans PSU, keyboard, mouse, and screen, I could pay the same as for an average mobo/cpu/memory kit for a PC, say 300€ - if it's good enough.
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Old 17 December 2009, 04:23   #347
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Its certainly not going to compete with current PCs/Macs.... and if it cant do that then what is the point ?
Does it have to? Actually, what can compete with those machines anyway? And why is it that it can't? Because the general public isn't interested in the Amiga.
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When it comes, if it comes, it will be like the Amiga one, Sam flex or winuae on a PC....
Except that it offers chipset compatibility in hardware, which I think is fantastic, because I don't care for Amiga One and the Sam, and WinUae is an emulator, which is not really my hobby.
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You paid "how much!?!?!" to buy a "NEW" system to run 15 year old software on a dead platform ?. Hell I still say that when I look at my A1200
My A1200 recently died, and all I can say is that I'm ordering a refurbished A1200 from Amigakit, and next year I'll probably get an old stock, and another refurbished one so I'll have Amigas around for a long time to come, and I won't regret spending all that money for a single second.
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Picking up where commodore left off ? Hmm nice sentiment but thats all it is, sentiment, anyone who beleives different is sadly delusional.
Maybe they're bullshitting, maybe they're not. Only time will tell.
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For some people, we are just not interested in other computers the same way we're interested in the Amiga.
You got that right. I can't begin to imagine only having a boooooooooring peecee, yuk.
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Originally Posted by Photon View Post
Also, many Amigans are cheap. If it's a complete computer sans PSU, keyboard, mouse, and screen, I could pay the same as for an average mobo/cpu/memory kit for a PC, say 300€ - if it's good enough.
So would I. Happily, in fact. Hobbies one gets a lot of enjoyment from are certainly worth spending money on
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Old 17 December 2009, 04:28   #348
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I want a Natami so I can make an Amiga game with more than 16 colours per playfield in dual playfield mode. And use more sprites with more colours!
The playfields will work that way but not the sprites. Sprites are only included for AGA compatibility and will still be limited to 16 colors since 256-color BOBs will already be about 50 times faster than 8-bitplane BOBs used to be (God willing). Also the Tami 3D texture mapper core can rotate and alpha-blend BOB images in realtime even if you're not using 3D graphics at the time.
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Old 17 December 2009, 04:29   #349
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Originally Posted by Cammy View Post
I want a Natami so I can make an Amiga game with more than 16 colours per playfield in dual playfield mode. And use more sprites with more colours!

And I want to build an arcade cabinet with a Natami in it, since we'll be making arcade quality games for it.

But you see, thats my point. How can "we" the hobbyist Amiga community make "Arcade quality" games.

Having the hardware is all very good but there is a limit to what such a small community can do. I guess it defines what you call "Arcade quality".... Are you talking about for example, "improved" versions of space invaders / Deluxe Galaga / Donkey Kong, i.e. from a nostalgia sense ? or are you talking about "Street Fighter 4" levels of Arcade quality... if its just improviing the old stuff, then I cant see how that is such a big draw ?

And in any case, developing games takes a whole lot of things, not least cash.......

Now I am all for the homebrew community, they have done some great things, but I just cant see how a Natami would be a step forward...

Part of the fun of nostalgia is/was that it is representative of a specific time. Lotus 2 for example holds a special place in my heart, it was the first 16/32 bit game I bought (for the Acorn Archimedes) I love it still and I am happy with it.

Lotus 2 Natami Enhanced ..... what would be the point ? It will never be a Need for Speed Shift or a Gran Turismo 5.

Or that old Chestnut, Spyhunter - My Fave "old" game ever. They ported it to numerous platforms but the Spectrum Version is still my favourite. They even Made a "Modern" version for PC's a few years ago.... not that great. Sensible Soccer 2006 for PC was a crime.

Its a bit like films, the First movie in a set is usually "a classic", but by the 2nd or third it gets a bit naff.

To be honest, sticking with the 680x0 architecture is EXTREMELY limiting - yes its compatible, and yes there are proposed improvements but it is still OLD architecture and cannot compete with today's expectations. $500+ on a Natami or $250 on an A1200 + Whdload key and a few bits to make the experience fun..... and the rest on an Xbox 360.....


Like I say, I doubt very much that the Natami is going to automatically make old stuff better - think of all the patches/rewrites needed to take advantage of the hardware improvements...... That would only happen if a Software company like, say, Eidos, decided to spend time and money redeveloping their old games. Which isn't going to happen.

Yes we could end up with "Lotus XP" , but again, is it really going to compete with Need for speed... I doubt it.

"But I want to do it on an Amiga!" - fine, I guess, but the NATAmi will still be YEARS if not nearly a decade behind the current capabilities of PC's and Mac's. That might be massively faster than what we have now BUT its like trying to repair a severed artery with a sticking plaster.... can't be done.

It would be nice if they made some sort of Add in for existing machines - or indeed a "motherboard replacement" - but I cant see it being economically viable, if not for them, for us as "consumers" - $500 for a new motherboard that has sexy features but these aren't supported in any "classic games". Been there, seen that to a certain extent with the OS 4.1 systems.... - they CAN'T do "classic" stuff - this would be the opposite, i.e. the classic games can't "do" the new hardware... or if they can then its exactly the same as the Classic hardware did them 15 years ago... unless you have some pretty edxtensive redevelopment. In which case I return to my question:

Whats the point ? Classic hardware running classic stuff VS new hardware running classic stuff, in EXACTLY the same way that the classic hardware did.

Or am I missing the point? Are the Natami developers going to release patches left right and centre to bring every game up to date.... I think not, that takes time and money, that I suspect they don't have.

Equally, you could say New hardware = new software/games possibilities, and you would be right. But that takes Industry backing which neither we as a community nor do I suspect the natami developers have.

If that were the case then why is the Sam Flex/Amiga one or any other "Modern Amiga" not cutting it? Simple, the Amiga doesn't have the market draw it once did (and even then it was fighting a losing battle) They cater for a VERY niche market, within a niche market is why - they can't do AMIGA stuff.... apart from OS 4.1 - which is um... it. Even the most die hard OS 4.1 junkie will have SOME way of doing "classic" stuff, either through emulation on another platform or the good old A1200 '030 they have in bits on the floor.

I'm sure if it does come out, it will be a nice toy to tinker with (like minimig, SAM, AOne etc) but I really cant see its "Value" unless its release will spawn a whole new market, with developers coming out the woodwork left right and centre.

Nope, sorry, I'm still not convinced
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Old 17 December 2009, 04:38   #350
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Does it have to? Actually, what can compete with those machines anyway? And why is it that it can't? Because the general public isn't interested in the Amiga.

Except that it offers chipset compatibility in hardware, which I think is fantastic, because I don't care for Amiga One and the Sam, and WinUae is an emulator, which is not really my hobby.

My A1200 recently died, and all I can say is that I'm ordering a refurbished A1200 from Amigakit, and next year I'll probably get an old stock, and another refurbished one so I'll have Amigas around for a long time to come, and I won't regret spending all that money for a single second.

So would I. Happily, in fact. Hobbies one gets a lot of enjoyment from are certainly worth spending money on
I couldn't agree more - I love my A1200, I'd run through brick walls for it, and I don't regret the money I've spent. BUT, chipset compatibility in a new piece of hardware alone doesn't Validate/justify that hardware, it is merely "more of the same" with a few tweaks, not some massively new "thing" that it seems to be being hyped as.
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Old 17 December 2009, 22:12   #351
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Excuse my ignorance... but to me, this just sounds like a beefed-up MiniMig. And that's no bad thing IMHO. Am I correct in this assumption?
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Old 17 December 2009, 23:42   #352
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And in any case, developing games takes a whole lot of things, not least cash.......
Making games doesn't require cash, it requires a couple of skilled people who like to do this kind of thing. Making games like Final Fantasy 12 on the PS2, that requires cash, not making fun old-school games.
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Part of the fun of nostalgia is/was that it is representative of a specific time.
And that doesn't apply to everyone. There are people who aren't nostalgic, and I'm one of them. When I play a game, the only thing that matters is that I think the game is fun, and some old games are still fun to play.
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To be honest, sticking with the 680x0 architecture is EXTREMELY limiting - yes its compatible, and yes there are proposed improvements but it is still OLD architecture and cannot compete with today's expectations.
At least it will be easy to program for. Also, sticking some Intel or risc cpu in the thing will mean it requires emulation, well, we already have that.
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Old 18 December 2009, 00:41   #353
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Excuse my ignorance... but to me, this just sounds like a beefed-up MiniMig. And that's no bad thing IMHO. Am I correct in this assumption?
Not quite. MiniMig only emulates the A500 OCS version as far as I know, it doesn't emulate ECS or AGA, so it's no A1200. Natami aims to emulate the A1200 and more, as if it was an A1200 with a PPC accelerator added in.

That's my understanding of it anyway, although the goal posts keep changing...
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Old 18 December 2009, 00:52   #354
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Not quite. MiniMig only emulates the A500 OCS version as far as I know, it doesn't emulate ECS or AGA, so it's no A1200. Natami aims to emulate the A1200 and more, as if it was an A1200 with a PPC accelerator added in.
I think they settled for an 060 for the start. Also I'm not sure if the specs for the 'Super-AGA' are based on the hardware they have or are just planned features. But yeah, it's certainly more than an A1200 MiniMig (once it's finished that is ).
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Old 18 December 2009, 01:19   #355
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we want real Amiga hardware,if want emulator we have and winuae.
lets wait to see what is this,maybe soon maybe never.
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Old 18 December 2009, 10:46   #356
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Of course, sprites don't matter, I look forward to huge, colourful BOBs!!!
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Old 18 December 2009, 11:38   #357
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I am very insterested in Natami! I hope this will be a real new Amiga hardware!!!
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Old 18 December 2009, 13:44   #358
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Hi All,
Quote:
Originally Posted by alexh View Post
Only way I can see this happening is if they hijack an existing mass produced FPGA platform.
Looking at the most recent pics at:
http://www.retroage.net/index.php?op...1&limitstart=2
Basically a baseboard with usual interfaces, plus the CPU card.

I don't have any doubts about their ability to create the hardware.
I do, however, share Alexh's doubts about the project from a financial point of view.

There are plenty of existing FPGA based boards, which are already mass-produced, at low cost, which would serve as the baseboard.
Example (XILINX DSP 1800A):
http://www.nuhorizons.com/developmen...l.asp?board=28
$295.00 per unit, plenty of goodies on the board.

Wouldn't be too difficult to create an "EXP" based 68060 CPU board to suit the DSP 1800A, at much lower cost, not to mention getting the whole Natami concept to market quicker.
Hell!, I'd by an EXP based '060 card.

Just my two-penneths worth...

Red
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Old 18 December 2009, 19:12   #359
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Hi RedskullDC,

I think the main objection to using boards like the one you pointed out is that the Natami is designed to have 2 memory buses like the original classic Amigas with Chip RAM and Fast RAM although the CPU-card could have the Fast RAM on-board to simplify the design.
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Old 18 December 2009, 20:10   #360
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I'd hate to see the cost of this thing if it ever comes into production.

Anyone want to put a figure on a populated board or full system?
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