DCE Scan Magic advice

T_hairy_bootson · 21 January 2008, 02:35

Is the internal DCE Scan Magic scandoubler also a flicker fixer? I am getting contradicting information from the retailer and the BBoA. Retailer (softhut claims its a flicker fixer as well.)

Is it a good choice for a scan doubler when using a standard 1200 desktop case? Does it overheat? Will it be able to do AGA games properly?

Also the indivision external scandoubler/flicker fixer.. Any good? Does it do AGA stuff properly? Can it work on all amiga models?

If anyone tells me to buy an LCD TV there will be murders...

Zetr0 · 21 January 2008, 02:55

@THB

amiga.resource.cx states

ScanMagic (Flicker-Magic / ScanDo Internal)
Company DCE, Germany
Date 1998
Amiga A1200, A4000

flicker fixer doubles the horizontal frequency of PAL, ECS and Euro36 screen modes to 31.5 kHz
removes flicker of interlaced screens
cannot handle Super72
connects internally onto the top of the Lisa chip
attaches with a ribbon cable to the external DB23 to HD15 VGA adapter

http://amiga.resource.cx/exp/search....&base=dec&pid=

heres a pic

hope that helps m8y

Zetr0 · 21 January 2008, 02:59

I would also suggest an alternative

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/External-TV-Tu...QQcmdZViewItem

I have one of these and its awesome!

T_hairy_bootson · 21 January 2008, 03:04

How would you feed the Amigas RGB signal into that ebay box?

keropi · 21 January 2008, 07:39

ok THB, if your Scanmagic has 2 pcb's that clip on chips , then it is a flickerfixer too. if it is only one like the pic alexh posted, then it is only scandoubler... the other pcb is a beige one with a hole in the middle and only connects to the main pcb with 2 wires...

Zetr0 · 21 January 2008, 08:35

@keropi-san

where did Alexh post a pic!? lol

@THB

on the unit there are 4 inputs

VGA (i have not tested this on 15khz input)
SVideo (remember those Narmi Externals)
Composite (its still pretty good from my tests, 1280x512x8 ZERO FLICKER!)
RF in (great for that picture in picture moment for footy matches or movies

)

I am yet to try the SVideo input, but it should be virtually indistinguishable from RGB, and the VGA input needs testing for 15kHz compatibility. i hadly get much time these days i am afraid to say

keropi · 21 January 2008, 10:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zetr0

@keropi-san

where did Alexh post a pic!? lol

lol yeah, u did!
damn those bearded avatars!

alexh · 21 January 2008, 10:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by keropi

ok THB, if your Scanmagic has 2 pcb's that clip on chips , then it is a flickerfixer too.

[gameshow_host_mode]

BONG! Awe, I am sorry. That is the WRONG answer. But thanks coming and being a contestent on "Play your [Amiga] cards right". You dont go away empty handed, as always you get a complementary hazing. Ladies and gentlemen please put your hands together for our looser, Keropi!

*APPLAUSE*

[/gameshow_host_mode]

Back to reality

Going just on names:

Scan Magic doesnt flicker fix.
Flicker Magic does.

The way to tell the two apart is the number of RAM chips on the main board.

A Scan Magic will have some RAM chips missing.

Scan Magic on the left, Flicker Magic on the right.

BTW: The second clip on PCB is to get the SYNC information (HSYNC/VSYNC) which is not on the chip which has RGB. You can either get these sync signals from another chip, or from the 23-pin video connector.

I've explained this so many times and updated the BBoAH several times to avoid confusion.

This card (by all reports) is a 16-bit scandoubler RGB 5:6:5 and so does not produce the best results with AGA mode games.

The Indivision / Toast Scan / Scando External is (reportadly) even worse because it has DIGITAL->ANALOG->DIGITAL->ANALOG conversion (as do all external scandoublers).

Zetr0 · 21 January 2008, 12:37

@Alexh

to make the basic scan doubler flicker fix, could the memory chips just be added ? or would it need a firmware update?

alexh · 21 January 2008, 13:45

Unknown. I cannot see any control jumper to switch between different types of operation.

This card uses a reprogrammable MACH211SP-15v CPLD

I think the rows of empty holes in the centre of the board are a JTAG connection for in circuit reprogramming.

Zetr0 · 21 January 2008, 14:16

@Alexh

thats what i suspect too..

hmmmiess...

keropi · 21 January 2008, 14:45

@alexh:

but I have seen many times on eBay those sd's that are selling without the beige extra pcb.... you mean there is a sd that has both clip-ons?

alexh · 21 January 2008, 15:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by keropi

I have seen many times on eBay those sd's that are selling without the beige extra pcb....

Here are three Flicker Magic boards.

One has the VGA + combined 23-pin SYNC adapter
One has the VGA + separate Alice chip clip SYNC adapter
One has the VGA Automon monitor switcher + separate Alice chip clip SYNC adapter.

They are 100% functionally identical.

Quote:

Originally Posted by keropi

you mean there is a sd that has both clip-ons?

Both Flicker Magic and Scan Magic were available in all three configurations above.

keropi · 21 January 2008, 15:53

oooooooohhhhhhh......
I was under the impression that the sd only did not need the alice sync

alexh · 21 January 2008, 16:16

Nope, any scandoubler needs SYNC.

rare_j · 21 January 2008, 18:22

I've got the Flicker Magic. It has one board with all the chips on that clips on top of a chip under where the HDD goes. Coming off that is a clip-on board for another chip closer to the front of the miggy (apparently to capture the sync). Coming off the other side of the main board is a standard VGA socket on the end of a long cable that I have coming out of the expansion cover round the back next to the joystick ports.

If fact it's like this one!

It gives a GREAT picture and makes ALL the games I've tried look smashing.
Couple of things to be aware of.

It only doubles/flicker-fixes TV (PAL/NTSC) modes. Don't be thinking you'll flicker-fix super72 to get 800*600 as it aint gonna happen!
APPARENTLY AGA stuff doesn't come through in full colour (some shades will come through as a single colour) but I cannot confirm as I've never investigated that.
Super-hi-res looks rubbish but i don't know why. Still no games use it so no great loss.
APPARENTLY if your game is in interlaced mode and scrolls vertically (eg. one of the pinball games) the the flicker fixer can't handle it and you'll get screen tearing. I must get round to testing this someday.
Once you've clipped the main board on, your hard drive caddy won't fit on top, so you'll either have to saw up your caddy and mount a thin hdd on riser nuts (damn that was hard work) or put your hdd somewhere else.
Once you've clipped the main board on THAT's IT you're never getting it off. I tried once and thought I was going to rip the motherboard apart. it is SNUG.
One of the chips on that main board gets hot. it'll burn the end of your finger. A 1cm heatsink wouldn't go amiss.
If you line-double PAL screen modes most LCD monitors don't sync low enough for that anymore. So stick to a CRT which look better anyway.
That's all I can think of right now.

T_hairy_bootson · 21 January 2008, 18:59

Thank you very much for your answers guys, much appreciated.

DDNI · 21 January 2008, 19:28

I have the VGA Automon monitor switcher + separate Alice chip clip SYNC adapter one. What can I use the automon thingie for?

alexh · 21 January 2008, 19:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by DDNI

What can I use the automon thingie for?

I think they are also known as a BMON. Originally designed for use with the CV64/3D. It has a second VGA input for an RTG gfx card. In particular a CV64/3D, Blizzard Bvision or CyberVision.

The control lines clip to the parallel port(?) and software switches between RTG and scan doubled native.

The same control lines can also connect to a switch if you prefer the manual touch.

They are quite sought after and can fetch upto €50 just for the BMON

There is a review of the BMON in issue 4 of TotalAmiga (Page 15).

What I am a little unsure of is the difference between the three terms Automon, Bmon and Smon. They could be the same thing, they could be different, not sure.

DDNI · 21 January 2008, 20:19

Thx Alexh, I dont use the BMON thingy at all. It is in my A1200 desktop at the mo.

Could I use it with my Voodoo to switch from it to SDoubled AGA output?

21 January 2008, 02:35	#1
T_hairy_bootson Workbitch 1.3 Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Melbourne, Australia Age: 46 Posts: 2,084	DCE Scan Magic advice Is the internal DCE Scan Magic scandoubler also a flicker fixer? I am getting contradicting information from the retailer and the BBoA. Retailer (softhut claims its a flicker fixer as well.) Is it a good choice for a scan doubler when using a standard 1200 desktop case? Does it overheat? Will it be able to do AGA games properly? Also the indivision external scandoubler/flicker fixer.. Any good? Does it do AGA stuff properly? Can it work on all amiga models? If anyone tells me to buy an LCD TV there will be murders... Last edited by T_hairy_bootson; 21 January 2008 at 02:53.

21 January 2008, 02:55	#2
Zetr0 Ya' like it Retr0? Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: United Kingdom Age: 49 Posts: 9,768	@THB amiga.resource.cx states ScanMagic (Flicker-Magic / ScanDo Internal) Company DCE, Germany Date 1998 Amiga A1200, A4000 flicker fixer doubles the horizontal frequency of PAL, ECS and Euro36 screen modes to 31.5 kHz removes flicker of interlaced screens cannot handle Super72 connects internally onto the top of the Lisa chip attaches with a ribbon cable to the external DB23 to HD15 VGA adapter http://amiga.resource.cx/exp/search....&base=dec&pid= heres a pic hope that helps m8y

21 January 2008, 13:45	#10
alexh Thalion Webshrine Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Oxford Posts: 14,355	Unknown. I cannot see any control jumper to switch between different types of operation. This card uses a reprogrammable MACH211SP-15v CPLD I think the rows of empty holes in the centre of the board are a JTAG connection for in circuit reprogramming. Last edited by alexh; 21 January 2008 at 14:00.

21 January 2008, 18:22	#16
rare_j Zone Friend Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: London Posts: 1,176	I've got the Flicker Magic. It has one board with all the chips on that clips on top of a chip under where the HDD goes. Coming off that is a clip-on board for another chip closer to the front of the miggy (apparently to capture the sync). Coming off the other side of the main board is a standard VGA socket on the end of a long cable that I have coming out of the expansion cover round the back next to the joystick ports. If fact it's like this one! It gives a GREAT picture and makes ALL the games I've tried look smashing. Couple of things to be aware of. It only doubles/flicker-fixes TV (PAL/NTSC) modes. Don't be thinking you'll flicker-fix super72 to get 800*600 as it aint gonna happen! APPARENTLY AGA stuff doesn't come through in full colour (some shades will come through as a single colour) but I cannot confirm as I've never investigated that. Super-hi-res looks rubbish but i don't know why. Still no games use it so no great loss. APPARENTLY if your game is in interlaced mode and scrolls vertically (eg. one of the pinball games) the the flicker fixer can't handle it and you'll get screen tearing. I must get round to testing this someday. Once you've clipped the main board on, your hard drive caddy won't fit on top, so you'll either have to saw up your caddy and mount a thin hdd on riser nuts (damn that was hard work) or put your hdd somewhere else. Once you've clipped the main board on THAT's IT you're never getting it off. I tried once and thought I was going to rip the motherboard apart. it is SNUG. One of the chips on that main board gets hot. it'll burn the end of your finger. A 1cm heatsink wouldn't go amiss. If you line-double PAL screen modes most LCD monitors don't sync low enough for that anymore. So stick to a CRT which look better anyway. That's all I can think of right now.

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21 January 2008, 02:59	#3
Zetr0 Ya' like it Retr0? Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: United Kingdom Age: 49 Posts: 9,768	I would also suggest an alternative http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/External-TV-Tu...QQcmdZViewItem I have one of these and its awesome!

21 January 2008, 03:04	#4
T_hairy_bootson Workbitch 1.3 Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Melbourne, Australia Age: 46 Posts: 2,084	How would you feed the Amigas RGB signal into that ebay box?

21 January 2008, 07:39	#5
keropi . Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Ioannina/Greece Posts: 5,040	ok THB, if your Scanmagic has 2 pcb's that clip on chips , then it is a flickerfixer too. if it is only one like the pic alexh posted, then it is only scandoubler... the other pcb is a beige one with a hole in the middle and only connects to the main pcb with 2 wires...

21 January 2008, 08:35	#6
Zetr0 Ya' like it Retr0? Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: United Kingdom Age: 49 Posts: 9,768	@keropi-san where did Alexh post a pic!? lol @THB on the unit there are 4 inputs VGA (i have not tested this on 15khz input) SVideo (remember those Narmi Externals) Composite (its still pretty good from my tests, 1280x512x8 ZERO FLICKER!) RF in (great for that picture in picture moment for footy matches or movies ) I am yet to try the SVideo input, but it should be virtually indistinguishable from RGB, and the VGA input needs testing for 15kHz compatibility. i hadly get much time these days i am afraid to say

21 January 2008, 12:37	#9
Zetr0 Ya' like it Retr0? Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: United Kingdom Age: 49 Posts: 9,768	@Alexh to make the basic scan doubler flicker fix, could the memory chips just be added ? or would it need a firmware update?

21 January 2008, 14:16	#11
Zetr0 Ya' like it Retr0? Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: United Kingdom Age: 49 Posts: 9,768	@Alexh thats what i suspect too.. hmmmiess...

21 January 2008, 14:45	#12
keropi . Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Ioannina/Greece Posts: 5,040	@alexh: but I have seen many times on eBay those sd's that are selling without the beige extra pcb.... you mean there is a sd that has both clip-ons?

21 January 2008, 15:53	#14
keropi . Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Ioannina/Greece Posts: 5,040	oooooooohhhhhhh...... I was under the impression that the sd only did not need the alice sync

21 January 2008, 16:16	#15
alexh Thalion Webshrine Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Oxford Posts: 14,355	Nope, any scandoubler needs SYNC.

21 January 2008, 18:59	#17
T_hairy_bootson Workbitch 1.3 Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Melbourne, Australia Age: 46 Posts: 2,084	Thank you very much for your answers guys, much appreciated.

21 January 2008, 19:28	#18
DDNI Targ Explorer Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Northern Ireland Posts: 5,432	I have the VGA Automon monitor switcher + separate Alice chip clip SYNC adapter one. What can I use the automon thingie for?

21 January 2008, 20:19	#20
DDNI Targ Explorer Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Northern Ireland Posts: 5,432	Thx Alexh, I dont use the BMON thingy at all. It is in my A1200 desktop at the mo. Could I use it with my Voodoo to switch from it to SDoubled AGA output?

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