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Old 15 January 2008, 08:35   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fred the Duck View Post
Spiffy, eventually, all we may have left is emulation.
I *hope* that we won't have to resort to this... I have high hopes for Mr. Jen's CLONE-A project, I hope they will eventually release a full amiga replacement mobo (like the C-One that is a C64...) with modern chips/technology and built-in features...
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Old 17 January 2008, 14:10   #22
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Caps have died on my 4000, taking out the sound... When I'm feeling brave, I must replace 'em.

The thing I find wierd/most upsetting is that the 500, 1000 and 2000 that I have are still going strong... The 3000 has given up the ghost 10 years ago, and the 4000 is dying in pieces.

Did cost cutting hit the 3000/4000 and 1200 by the sound of it?
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Old 17 January 2008, 14:19   #23
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I have the very first generation of A1200 that i bought the very month the A1200 was released, and its still going strong. I used it from 1992 until mid 2000 and NEVER had a problem.. i have been using it again for the last maybe 2 years now, and its still going great. So i am assuming its a generational thing with the AGA Amiga's. The Escom ones and various other types might have used poor quality components !?.

But i am deeply concerned that one day i may not have my 1200 functioning anymore. Its not a thought i wish to contemplate very often.
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Old 17 January 2008, 14:26   #24
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all amigas will die, sooner or later ...

but minimig will live forever
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Old 17 January 2008, 14:45   #25
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Amiga are made of the same stuff owls are made of.

Owls are still around and have been for years, and they will be here in years to come.
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Old 17 January 2008, 14:57   #26
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The Amiga isn't more of a tortoise? Lasts forever, fun to spin on their backs, if a bit slow?
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Old 17 January 2008, 15:41   #27
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The family A500+, has been overheated in a caravan someone screwed up the heating settings it got so hot the floppy discs actually melted together, then the same caravan someone left the skylight open with the A500+ underneath it soaked the dam thing, it was also dropped down the stairs at my house a few times, my brother stabbed it with a screwdriver over a argument during Worms, many moons later it was victim to a crap tower conversion attempt and then dumped in the garden by my girlfriends stupid brother for about 12 months....

Still works fine
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Old 17 January 2008, 15:45   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrF View Post
The family A500+, has been overheated in a caravan someone screwed up the heating settings it got so hot the floppy discs actually melted together, then the same caravan someone left the skylight open with the A500+ underneath it soaked the dam thing, it was also dropped down the stairs at my house a few times, my brother stabbed it with a screwdriver over a argument during Worms, many moons later it was victim to a crap tower conversion attempt and then dumped in the garden by my girlfriends stupid brother for about 12 months....

Still works fine
Haha, now thats what I like to hear, a lot better than hearing about teh death of Amiga, which imo should be banned from this forum.
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Old 17 January 2008, 16:42   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fred the Duck View Post
Photon, Wikipedia does a better job than I can.
Also, I first heard of it here:

Sadly, the webmaster, Rob Dwyer, passed away last year.

http://my.ais.net/~xtreme/SF/Bit-Rot/

Spiffy, eventually, all we may have left is emulation.
Heh. You are talking about storage. And yes, EEPROM, Flash Cards, ... store by electrical fusing; EPROM is the same, only UV light erases it. If you leave the erase window on the EPROM unprotected like in your link, you don't get bit rot. It works as it should, sunlight will erase it over time.

In fact, you can put EPROMs on your window sill for a while, instead of buying a UV eraser. EPROMs have specs, but mainly how many times you can erase it. Program it once, protect it, and it will last for at least decades. Should be easy enough to find a sealed console EPROM (should be rare, ROMs are much more common) cartridge that has bit errors. Then erase and re-program it, if it reads back ok it wasn't bit rot.

No EPROMs in the Amiga. If you can give me proof of one occurance of bit rot in ROMs, you will get a reward! They are made from silicon masks, just as any TTL chip in every electronic gadget on earth. It's far more likely to be damaged by overvoltage or overheating than so called bit rot.

In (E)EPROMs there is at least a chance of degradation over time because of the fusing, but how to prove it wasn't "on the edge" when it was sold? ROMs, ICs? No chance.

But what's important is: stuff breaks for different reasons. The clincher is whether there are replacements. Caps, RAM/ROM storage, logic will be here for a very long while. What remains is the chipset, which is why Minimig/Clone-A is so interesting! Programmable gate arrays will be available as long as logic gates are used in electronics. So the thing is to program their functions into a gate design. This design can then be used so long as it can be ported to newer devkits.

Last edited by Photon; 17 January 2008 at 17:53.
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Old 17 January 2008, 16:55   #30
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There is sadly no way round the second law of thermodynamics.
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Old 17 January 2008, 17:19   #31
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damn.... i supose i should break down my perpetual motion machine....

pity... its been running for the last year.... round and round...

oh well.... i wonder what the penalty is for breaking the thermodynamic laws...
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Old 17 January 2008, 17:22   #32
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A LOT of people with beards wagging their wrinkly fingers at you!

No new idea can be accepted by the scientific community at large until those who came up with the last one have died.
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Old 17 January 2008, 17:34   #33
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yeah.... good point....

besides everyone is into that whole entropy thing, i don't wanna spoil it...
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Old 17 January 2008, 17:43   #34
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Fred: I'm sure you know all this already. Was objecting strongly to the made up term 'bit rot', which seems to be a handy catch-all for "this chip contained bits. now the bits don't read correctly. what happened to it? bit rot!". :P

It was mainly aimed at the (still large number of) caring Amiga owners that are afraid their hardware will "decay". Having repaired arcade PCBs that have received inhuman treatment, I'd say everything is fixable.

The exception is proprietary chips whose function cannot be determined (say, by one who has programmed them or dissected them physically) or replicated (nobody still around who can describe the exact function or lost designs).

So I just wanted to say to them, "DON'T PANIC" Floppies can be emulated or RADed, and screens displaying RGB in 2D will be around for a good while.

Timing seems to be at the essence of this. As long as replacement parts (or boards) mimic the timing of custom logic exactly, repairing original Amigas will last as long as the physical substrate and copper does.


Charlie: Let's get practical. Are you predicting actual decay of printed circuits in a (~) vacuum in a chip that never overheats or gets a voltage spike in, say a couple centuries? Or what do you mean?
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Old 17 January 2008, 18:00   #35
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@Photon:
A tongue-in-cheek comment TBH.
Like yourself I don't see any great problem in maintaining our Amigas on a human timescale.
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Old 17 January 2008, 18:56   #36
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Holographic principle:

On a slightly related subject this may explain why crap always expands to fill the space available.
Volumes are illusory, it's only surfaces that count.

Does that mean an emulator is indeed as good as the real thing..?
End of another argument.

Next week well discuss the conundrum of why would a cap leak/explode if in some real sense it's contents only exist in terms of expression on its surface?
Do old Amiga's therefore have a role in disproving the weak holographic principle?
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Old 17 January 2008, 22:51   #37
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damn... i have always been an advocate of the week HP...

ho hum.... back to the entropy drawing board.
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Old 23 January 2008, 01:48   #38
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Surface mount (such as the A1200) generally outlasts PTH (plated through hole) components by quite a bit.
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Old 23 January 2008, 10:39   #39
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No, it won't be capacitors that get us... It'll be the rise of these little swines
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Old 23 January 2008, 15:04   #40
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