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Old 12 January 2008, 01:02   #41
Retro-Nerd
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http://hol.abime.net/2103/boxscan

http://hol.abime.net/3336/boxscan

http://hol.abime.net/3554/boxscan

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Old 12 January 2008, 01:09   #42
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I can't find it on the front cover, so guess it's the back cover you think of

Maybe not perfect, but fine for your icons or maybe for a custom cover



took 10-20 sek
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Old 12 January 2008, 01:18   #43
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Looks like HOL forgot the watermark for the front cover. I don't use back cover for icons. I repaired this one years ago, look fine imho. Would be harder with a watermark.
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Old 12 January 2008, 01:19   #44
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PM me the covers you want repair and I will try my best
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Old 12 January 2008, 01:29   #45
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and in this that a problem should be realized.
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Old 12 January 2008, 01:29   #46
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Exotica did it in another way. They added a black bar on the buttom, but i assume this is too complex or too much work for HOL.


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Old 12 January 2008, 04:06   #47
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I have to say I was never enthusiastic about the thought of watermarking but that is just one of the realities we had to face up to in light of scans just being ripped off the site and used in other games sites. We've been discussing watermarking for several years now and it isn't a decision that was taken lightly.

Exotica watermarking won't really stop people stealing your scans because it is very easy to remove that sort of watermark through some batch/scripted process.

Can I just re-emphasise what Cody has already said - that if you are working on a project that is of merit and need unwatermarked screenshots then contact one of us. We may be able to provide the scan at a higher resolution too depending on what it is.
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Old 12 January 2008, 15:19   #48
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HOL is indeed a wonderful resource, my thanks and respect to all those who have made the site what it is.

Thoughts:
I can see both sides of this (sorry, call me a fence-sitting liberal if you wish).
-As a 'user' I'm not at all happy about this development for all the reasons mentioned above
-But if I was a HOL team member I'd be pretty p*ssed off by now for all their reasons mentioned above.

Both viewpoints make good sense from the POV of those stating them, which unfortunately means there can be no common ground.
An 'Imp-Ass':
One POV or other has to back-down which will result in unhappiness & resentment on their part...
...not a happy situation whatever happens.

So, if either the HOL team is not to slowly drift away out of frustration or the 'community' loose interest in the site (either situation would be a tragedy) then an alternate solution MUST be found.

Solutions?
A few off the top of my head:
1) The HOL team will have already spent time & effort watermarking images, reversing that will involve some 'inertia'.
Whichever team-member created the watermark should be able to publish a 'brush' for a few popular art packages that can be used for easy removal of said watermark where people 'need' an unadulterated image...
...this should go some way to satisfying all parties.
2) There is watermarking software available that can 'invisibly' mark images. Users get their 'originals', HOL team get their 'proof' if they suspect other sites of leaching HOL material...
...other issues come to mind, though.
3) HOL could keep private alternate images with no watermark only available to registered members when logged-in.
That would add a layer of 'anti-leechness' to the site...
...but would require a redesign to allow for this.
Having said that from a personal POV no matter how useful I will NOT have anything to do with a resource site that requires me to register to gain access. (Issues of privacy & paranoia) So such a facility would therefore in my mind need to be an optional extra NOT a requirement.
One way to arrange suggestion #3) may be to say 'optional access' is available to any registered @ the EAB.

I'm sure there are other solutions...

Last edited by Charlie; 12 January 2008 at 15:43.
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Old 12 January 2008, 18:44   #49
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I'm afraid I just don't get what the big deal is. Sites are ripping off the HOL. It sounds like they are trying to make money off of work that isn't theirs and are hardly ethical about it. To do nothing lines the pockets of people ripping off others' work.

The only solution to stop this seems watermarking. And not invisible marking -- that would only help if one were trying to sue a web site or something of that nature. A visitor to one of these unethical sites isn't going to load up images in Photoshop just to see if there's a watermark. But a visitor that sees 'Hall of Light' on all those pics is at least going to unmistakably know their origin. A layer of registration would probably just have the sites rewrite their scripts.

Some of the other issues I've seen raised don't really make a lot of sense either. Someone that took the screenshots for HOL took them for HOL, what HOL does with them is their own business. And if you took those screenshots, you'd already have them sans watermark. If you didn't take those screenshots, I don't see how you can complain about how you can use them.

And, to top it off, if someone wanted to make an icon pack or something like that, they've said they'll provide them without the watermark.

I do agree that it kind of sucks as a casual visitor to HOL to see the screenshots 'marred' but it doesn't really take away from its functionality.
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Old 12 January 2008, 22:48   #50
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Congratulations Cody - you're a screenshot factory!
I second that!

Quote:
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I have to say I was never enthusiastic about the thought of watermarking but that is just one of the realities we had to face up to in light of scans just being ripped off the site and used in other games sites. We've been discussing watermarking for several years now and it isn't a decision that was taken lightly.
All sadly very true. I detest watermarking from a user's POV also. However, it hasn't been a knee-jerk decision by any stretch of the imagination peeps. We could have instituted watermarking a couple of years back when a jerk on A.Org torrented the whole HOL site (with references to HOL purposely removed, mind you), but we resisted on the grounds that it would unfairly penalise users. Unfortunately, since then most aspects of HOL (screenshots, scans, credits, other game info. etc. etc.) has been pillaged and plagiarised by pretty much EVERY major Amiga counterpart and more. So if you want to take aim at anyone, take aim at the perpetrators and the corporate entities who see the retrogaming community as one big cash cow. Seriously, what would you have us do? Sit idly by and continue to let it happen? Rome has been burning for quite a while now peeps and, unfortunately, we've had no choice but to call in the emergency water bombers.
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Old 13 January 2008, 01:04   #51
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shouldnt the community that this project serves make that decision ?

after all it not only improves through community input and submissions but also survives for its use.

people whom want to RIP the entirety from HOL will find ways to do this, irrespective of the watermark..

the truth.... the water mark is a platitude to a 'few' contributors nothing more.

i am not taking anything away from the legend that is HOL, but its a commnuity project NOT for a few contributors to claim ownership wich is what HOL is doing not only by *(arguably)* using a water mark on any non-pre agreed art work is breaking a lot of copyright law. I am sure they know this.

This descision to water mark is not only in error its going to cause a HUGE issue down the line when artist(s) and copyright holds approach HOL with retraction statements, HOL is to me that Beacon that Amiga Enthusiasts have need and will continue to need.

I will argue that "to protect" statement is UTTER BULLSHIT its sounds a lot like this is our ball, play the game our way! its crap AND YOU ALL KNOW IT...

common .... people making money on a system / format that been COMMERCIALLY DEAD for 10 years its a lot more than beyond belief... its total TRITE...

the best way to protect HOL is to OPEN PLATFORM it... allow users to download a portable hol version... your tireless work, that I cannot say how awesome it is... could be USED by the community, albiet commercial and private alike... you can then draw rules on commercial use... like donations to what ever cause...

but this watermarking.... its wrong..... it DEEMS OWNERSHIP!!! stop being arses about this and ask the community in a pol... run it for a month. let the community tell you what it wants... and then allow HOL to become that....

please... this is a crucial moment for your project.... don't make the wrong mistakes... make the decision based on a community need, rather than a personal grudge or two.
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Old 13 January 2008, 03:22   #52
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i hate the watermarking too please consider a poll on this subject as requested by others i'll say no more than that. Thanks for listening!
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Old 13 January 2008, 06:08   #53
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shouldnt the community that this project serves make that decision ?

after all it not only improves through community input and submissions but also survives for its use.
It's great that HOL provides a community service. It's great that the community helps. But that doesn't give the community the ability to dictate what's done. That's up to the ones running the show. What if a bunch of people came up with the idea that they wanted the HOL to hand over the entire database, then started up the Ham of Lick with that database, only with ads all over the place?

Quote:
people whom want to RIP the entirety from HOL will find ways to do this, irrespective of the watermark..
While this may be true, the 'value' if you will of those screenshots is greatly devalued for some other web site. I mean, come on, they have 'Hall of Light' on them. Sure it's possible people can swipe them, but would they really want to, as much as they would without watermarks?

Quote:
the truth.... the water mark is a platitude to a 'few' contributors nothing more.
If I understand, you're just pissed a few are making a decision that you'd rather be a part of. While I think it's great you put forward your opinion, I think insinuating others are making the decision just to make a decision is a bit unfounded.

Quote:
i am not taking anything away from the legend that is HOL, but its a commnuity project NOT for a few contributors to claim ownership wich is what HOL is doing not only by *(arguably)* using a water mark on any non-pre agreed art work is breaking a lot of copyright law. I am sure they know this.

This descision to water mark is not only in error its going to cause a HUGE issue down the line when artist(s) and copyright holds approach HOL with retraction statements, HOL is to me that Beacon that Amiga Enthusiasts have need and will continue to need.
I think you're grasping at straws here. It's fair use to publish parts of a work for review purposes. They aren't providing the entire game, just images of it. If a game company really wanted to sue over copyright the watermark will have little to do with it. HOL isn't trying to claim they wrote the game itself.

Quote:
I will argue that "to protect" statement is UTTER BULLSHIT its sounds a lot like this is our ball, play the game our way! its crap AND YOU ALL KNOW IT...

common .... people making money on a system / format that been COMMERCIALLY DEAD for 10 years its a lot more than beyond belief... its total TRITE...
So you're saying people will copy the images regardless, but yet, nobody is actually copying the images? Which is it, and what do you base this all on? Granted, all I have is the word of the few that posted here saying they are being ripped off, but it sure seems plausible. I've also seen a great many ROM sites based around advertising.

Quote:
the best way to protect HOL is to OPEN PLATFORM it... allow users to download a portable hol version... your tireless work, that I cannot say how awesome it is... could be USED by the community, albiet commercial and private alike... you can then draw rules on commercial use... like donations to what ever cause...
You think someone that wants to rip off these images is going to pay attention to a GPL or something similar? It should be free so it can't be stolen? This isn't making sense.

Quote:
but this watermarking.... its wrong..... it DEEMS OWNERSHIP!!! stop being arses about this and ask the community in a pol... run it for a month. let the community tell you what it wants... and then allow HOL to become that....

please... this is a crucial moment for your project.... don't make the wrong mistakes... make the decision based on a community need, rather than a personal grudge or two.
I don't see anything wrong with a poll, but I don't think the results need be binding. Maybe it would give those running HOL an idea of what a bunch of folks on EAB (or wherever) think, but I don't think it has to be completely binding on some order.
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Old 13 January 2008, 06:49   #54
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Quote:
It's great that HOL provides a community service. It's great that the community helps. But that doesn't give the community the ability to dictate what's done. That's up to the ones running the show. What if a bunch of people came up with the idea that they wanted the HOL to hand over the entire database, then started up the Ham of Lick with that database, only with ads all over the place?
That would be fine if HOL owned the graphics but they don't! can't you see what we are getting at here!

ok i ripped termintator 2 movie frame by frame and put in a shit load of text and pictures about the film (in a database), does that mean i am entitled to put a watermark on every picture? does it hell because they don't belong to me in the first place, ok i may have spent 20 years ripping every frame as a pic but that does not give me the right to watermark with my own personal logo as if i had done the work or own it!

as far as i am concerned you should only be able to watermark your own work unless you have express permission and proof to do so!

I do appreciate the work thats gone in thousands of hours i don't doubt but you don't own the graphics/screenshots you are watermarking!
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Old 13 January 2008, 10:58   #55
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Guess one of the mods should split this thread into one about watermarks and the other the original news thread


I dont like the idea of a poll, most user will say no to watermarks, but I guess the ones making all the hard works in maintaining the HOL should be the on who decide if they would take some action against piracy of pictures, and how.
And as they say if you want a picture without watermarks, just pm one from the hol team
It dont ruin my browsing in HOL, I most say I find the watermark very invisible in most cases, and the data in HOL are the same, so I wouldn't visit less just because of these watermarks
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Old 13 January 2008, 11:08   #56
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sarek2k and Zetr0 - your application of copyright law and legality is flawed since you aren't the copyright holders. All you're saying is what you'd like to see in a hypothetical situation where you do hold the copyright. This isn't very helpful!

How could we possibly please all theoretical copyright holders in that case? One such person suggested that we include game downloads - "otherwise your occupation is the lowliest of the low documentation of history". Another wanted all the data for his own database and in his confusion called a non-HOL team member a thief and suggested that he had no decency.

Copyright is never as simple as is usually presented. As is often suggested its purpose is not simply to protect creative works but also to foster creativity. It can be more succinctly phrased as "the letter versus the spirit of the law". I'm fully convinced that we're adhering to the spirit of the law and the letter of the law is an area for the legal profession.

If you say that we have no right to watermark site content then logically we should be removing all screenshots and scans from the site. I can't see how you'd be for one and not the other in saying that we don't have the right to watermark. A poll should therefore be whether the HOL should be a textual site or have content.

It has been suggested that with watermarks in screenshots we're claiming ownership of the graphics. We're not. What we are protecting is the particular selection and arrangement of screenshots. That is, we're protecting the creative and intellectual work in selecting particular screenshots from the multitude of possible screenshots and also in the arrangement and ordering of them on the page. Furthermore, the watermarks are protecting the hard work that goes into putting together the database. In the EU databases may be protected in a dual manner by the law; firstly by copyright in the selection and arrangement of contents and secondly through the Database Right, which protects the hard work involved. For scans it's the hard work that is being protected.

A poll on using watermarks would have a predictable result in that most of us don't want them including the HOL team. Unfortunately it's necessary.
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Old 13 January 2008, 12:29   #57
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Could it be an option, to say that those who made the scans and/or screen grab and uploaded them to HOL, could say that they didn't wanted watermarks on those pictures. But they should make the contact saying so, and if they didn't, watermarks was put on as a standard.
You could argue that those making the picture did have some kind of (c)
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Old 13 January 2008, 13:11   #58
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That discussion will come to nothing, I´m afraid.

Even a poll wouldn´t change the situation, ´cause the HOL team wants to cleave to watermarked pictures anyway.

I think we have to accept that.
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Old 13 January 2008, 15:24   #59
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@paranoid

I appreciate the time you took reading and diseminating my post, alas not only did you miss the point, you complete misread it. start at the begining of the thread and work you way through... you will get there.

@cody

Application of copyright law, is law, you presume much of what i may or may not know, there are plenty of sites that can offer you both support and caution for the material that HOL provides on a community basis. Please for the sake of the HOL double check.

I do have one question at this time though you said that a while back when some one ripped off the entirety of HOL on A.org, you disucssed watermarking then.

so why did you do it now and not then if it wasn't for recent developements ?


as small point here.... if i was scanning music album covers and putting water marks on it.... how quick do you think my database be requested to close?

just THINK ABOUT IT.
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Old 13 January 2008, 20:17   #60
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@paranoid

I appreciate the time you took reading and diseminating my post, alas not only did you miss the point, you complete misread it. start at the begining of the thread and work you way through... you will get there.
What say you break it down for me? I came to a conclusion, asking me to reread something I've already read once isn't going to have me magically have some epiphany about your hidden point.

Quote:
as small point here.... if i was scanning music album covers and putting water marks on it.... how quick do you think my database be requested to close?

just THINK ABOUT IT.
Um. Never. Watermarking isn't only for copyright claim. It can also be used for fingerprinting, which is what the HOL is doing. They are only claiming the origin of the picture, not that they own the copyright to the original work (the game). For example, I can watermark the message "(c) 2008 Paranoid Enterprises" or just "paranoid" without them both having the same meaning.

Here's something to think about: when you write an article, when do you obtain the copyright? Do you have to file something to your government? Do you have to add (c) to the work? Neither -- when you finish the work it is automatically implied. (The Berne Convention.) With that in mind, adding a watermark doesn't grant copyright (it is automatically given) it only indicates the origin of the picture.

And to sarek2k: The day the HOL captures a game, frame by frame, and posts it on the internet is the day that analogy will be more valid. (And even then, not very; there is more to a game than images scrolling across the screen.)
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