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Old 11 January 2008, 10:13   #21
Codetapper
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Well if other sites stopped stealing the HOL screens, there would be no need for a watermark! But sadly this is unlikely to stop...
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Old 11 January 2008, 14:37   #22
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@codetapper

please understand my friend, i have the deepest respect for you and your efforts for the EAB community and the community in large. but are not the HOL screen shots submitted from users ? for the wont of one small argument (which IMO shouldn't be a problem)

The reason i would second a poll in this matter is that i find HOL a resource, by putting the water mark you damage that resource by claiming it for sole HOL usage.

It is a shame that the HOL team feel they need to do this. but on a personal level, isnt HOL about what the users want, insofar should not a POL be queried the users to see if a water mark really is what HOL is about ?
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Old 11 January 2008, 14:55   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zetr0 View Post
@codetapper

please understand my friend, i have the deepest respect for you and your efforts for the EAB community and the community in large. but are not the HOL screen shots submitted from users ? for the wont of one small argument (which IMO shouldn't be a problem)

The reason i would second a poll in this matter is that i find HOL a resource, by putting the water mark you damage that resource by claiming it for sole HOL usage.

It is a shame that the HOL team feel they need to do this. but on a personal level, isnt HOL about what the users want, insofar should not a POL be queried the users to see if a water mark really is what HOL is about ?
Once again, I quite agree with you.
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Old 11 January 2008, 16:34   #24
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Nearly all the screenshots wer created by the HOL team. On the other hand box, disk and misc scans were mostly contributed.

As Codetapper says, the watermarking has been added in response to plagiarism by other sites. Although this sort of thing has happened since the HOL started there are reasons why we've had to add watermarking now.

Firstly, we've recently had two large sites use HOL material including screenshots, scans and data. Some of this material has been added by users of the other websites in question and so has indirectly found its way there from the HOL. Other times it has been more direct.

Secondly, there is an increasing trend for "commercial" Amiga websites these days. By this I mean sites which want to compete with others in a cutthroat manner which is more akin to commercial industries where money is involved than the relatively small scene that the Amiga has. Webmasters need people to come to their site and so descend into a vicious circle of obsession with high Google ranking, Google advert revenues and hype. In this way the temptation to lift the data and material from other sites overrides more purely academic aims.

Thirdly, we're up against the large multi-platform game sites which plaster their pages with adverts and are generally faceless. When HOL screenshots and scans are used in these sites we've got close to zero chance in having them removed.

Fourthly, the HOL is a database site. The majority of the work by contributors and team members has gone into the database part of it. It's quite natural to want to protect it from being used elsewhere with a different name slapped on top of it.

Adding watermarks helps us to pinpoint if the scans have been taken directly from the HOL as opposed to some innocent inclusion such as a contributor sending scans to multiple sites. Even if there is an attempt to remove the watermarks it does at least slow the progress of plagiarists.

The HOL team has a good record of contributing our own work to other projects. This usually happens after the team receives polite requests and through good site relations. For example, I've sent screenshots to Lemon Amiga in the past and Kim and I regularly swap data fixes. Another example are the endings that are sent through NPI for inclusion in the VG Museum. The way not to do it is to go ahead and rip data and screens without so much as the courtesy of an email. We also like to see what use is going to be made of material since most projects don't survive the initial period of enthusiasm. It's also worth mentioning that a request for the whole database and all the material won't have much chance!

I do understand that it's irritating when browsing the site and I would like to see more website collaboration and some sort of creative commons approach but it's unlikely to happen in the current climate of the scene.
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Old 11 January 2008, 16:43   #25
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@Cody

If the watermarks are added on top of the image (rather than being part of the image itself) couldn't a process be added to allow the user to download a non-watermarked version of the image?

Perhaps this process could be long-winded enough (a timed delay or a bothersome captcha) to prevent 'mass plagiarisers' from taking all the images, but short enough not to test the patience of a genuine HOL addict?

While it would involve a little bit of work, it's a possible solution to the problem of 'security vs convenience'.

Just a thought.
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Old 11 January 2008, 17:06   #26
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We've already got security measures to stop the whole site being downloaded but these methods are never unbreakable.

In my experience most folks want to quickly browse multiple screenshots and scans and wouldn't make much use of a system to reveal images with no watermarks. In addition a lot of the plagiarism is happening through downloads of small amounts of material by people who then use them to contribute to other sites and so increase their contributor rating.
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Old 11 January 2008, 17:30   #27
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I see.

But take my DSA-Arcade project for instance.

I needed some gfx from Realms of Arkania and didnīt want to load the game, take the shot and so on.
(I always used HOL screenshots for my Amiga projects).

Now, thatīs impossible.

Okay HOL is "just" a database site, but it could be used as a gfx database as well.
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Old 11 January 2008, 17:56   #28
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viddi - if you ever need screens just email or PM me and I'll send them on to you.
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Old 11 January 2008, 20:08   #29
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Okidokey

Thank you.
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Old 11 January 2008, 22:39   #30
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@Cody

Personally from what i have read, its nothing more than a platitude to a *few* contributors.

I can tell you now, that IF i had contributed to HOL and found water marks on it, i would feel both cheated and violated that my time and effort has been CLAIMED for direct ownership to the HOL database... its not right and YOU KNOW IT.

I am getting agitated now, because this once beautiful resource is now being *securityfied* not for the uses and the community... no .... but for the contributers... like WHY if you want some SPECIAL accolade for your efforts, be happy and revel in the community l33tism sucks arse.

Remember that you are doing for the people not for your own gratification.


Like Viddi and a lot of others, i use HOL for box scans for both art as well as inspiration and yes 80% for what i use HOL for, a water mark is fine but the option to d/l without it would be a perfect blend of the problems you have described..

On the other hand... please understand this....

I cannot explain the deep respect that i have for both you and the whole HOL team... i cannot put into words what i feel HOL is worth to the community..


so now understand how i must feel when i say that this move to Water Mark these images... is TOTAL and UTTER BOLLOCKS

show me ALL of these multitude of sites that steal said images and content... remember a database is nothing more than text and picture.... if two database get their info from the same source (back of a game box) then there gonna have the same entries!!!!

sorry ... thats how i feel.... you platitude a few because of IMHO a couple of 'possible' small site infractions that mean absolutely NOTHING, your efforts are appreciate by the community! be happy with that... infact revel in it.... release a portable HOL for other sites to use... STOP BEING LEET

The HOL TEAM should consider themselves Honoured and Proud to have their work copied or requested... you have created something for the community that is not only without words it is without rivial!!...

you made it for the community.... you cannot give something then take it back... you may structure it.... you may well guide its course... but as its community you cannot control it.... or it will slip through your fingers!

Please understand... how i feel, you guys are legend in my book, indeed i do feel as though i walk alongside god like figures when I interact with all of you. but your efforts ARE appreciated, to water mark them is send the wrong signal to the community.... as HOL is a database... offer it to classic sites... make HOL known from the outer heebrodies to the tim buk tu.

On a legal point, which my friend I am sure you are aware... i am pretty sure you dont have 100% agreements on all BOX scans... and not only by holding this content its technically illegal, slapping a watermark of property is really flouting it.

HOL is at risk of becoming what it seeks not to advocate... a product not a project...

Please..... reconsider this maneuver to water mark..... ask the community what they want....

Last edited by Zetr0; 11 January 2008 at 22:45.
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Old 11 January 2008, 23:13   #31
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Although happy Iīd get the stuff I need from the HOL team, the freedom the "old HOL" provided seems to be gone.

We shouldnīt punish ourselves only because some sites use HOL screenshots.

Zetr0 is right: It IS a wrong signal. At least thatīs how I feel.

Itīs only a small step...but a step in the wrong direction.




And donīt forget "Guess the screenshot"
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Old 11 January 2008, 23:30   #32
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for my person i can only say that iīve collected many games and spent much money (more than you might think), scanned the boxes, disks and manuals.

should i (and the other members) let other people leech the database and get honoured for the work what they never done ?

even the gamemaps took me much time and i wonīt be angry if anyone like to have them for apersonal website, but i donīt like to see them on sites which makes money with them...
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Old 11 January 2008, 23:43   #33
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@x_to

please understand, your effort is legendary i cannot tell you the esteme i hold you and the HOL team in. really you guy have created a beacon in an otherwise dark universe. THIS WILL NEVER CHANGE

I have been involved in MANY community projects... infact it perhaps were i do some of my best work!

I wont lie, it does sting when people take your efforts / work and use it in a way that you didn't want them too... I can only empathies with you. but please understand, to those that matter your work is indeed held in the highest regard.

this water marking it seems suggest that you don't feel your efforts are appreciated, please.... nothing could be further from the truth!

I have had work taken / perverted and used in ways i would never of agreed too when i began several community projects... but although you put all that time in, its not for kudos or respect, its about giving the community what it wants, from that it becomes a living thing, like i believe HOL to be.

you guys have created something that can only be described as legendary! nothing can take that away. If others use your work then the best thing to do is consider the fact the effort you made others lack or need.
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Old 12 January 2008, 00:18   #34
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Mobygames and TheLegacy added watermarks to their box scans ages ago, probably for the same reason. I guess we have to live with it.

For me it's a bit sad. I made over 500 PNG game icons, mostly taken from HOL box scans, which aren't available in the brilliant exoticon collection.

I wanted to do some more, maybe converting them to OS3.5/Newicons too. It's hard to remove a watermark without destroying graphics.

I understand ZetrO, looks like he used important parts from HOL box scans for this "Custom CD32 Cover" project. But with watermarks it's much harder for him to get good source material for his work.
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Old 12 January 2008, 00:27   #35
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Well being a picture whore stealing/linknig from sites all over the world I do understand HOL, and respect that they ad watermarks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Prince Retro-nerd
For me it's a bit sad. I made over 500 PNG game icons, mostly taken from HOL box scans, which aren't available in the brilliant exoticon collection.

I wanted to do some more, maybe converting them to OS3.5/Newicons too. It's hard to remove a watermark without destroying graphics.
I dont think this watermark will be visible if you make a icon out of it you can even use it for custom made covers without people would notice



So stop complaining
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Old 12 January 2008, 00:37   #36
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I'm not really complaining, Dizzy.

But you are wrong, check this PNG. Or can i remove the watermark (bottom right) completely with Photoshop or something? Looks like the HOL watermarks are only in the popups, when i can click to enlarge them. But it need this bigger pictures, because a lot of box scans are damaged. This bigger pictures (with watermark) are exisier to repair in my graphic tools.
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Old 12 January 2008, 00:45   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Retro-Nerd View Post
I'm not really complaining, Dizzy.

But you are wrong, check this PNG. Or can i remove the watermark (bottom right) completely with Photoshop or something?
I m$ paint'ed it (it took 10 sek )

Last edited by Dizzy; 16 October 2009 at 23:27.
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Old 12 January 2008, 00:49   #38
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Hey Retro-Nerd, that wasnīt a good example.
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Old 12 January 2008, 00:52   #39
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Pah, Dizzy used NOT a pop up picture. Yes, it was a bad example. There are others, more damaged box carton scans, which are easier to repair with the big POP UP (and watermarked) shots.
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Old 12 January 2008, 00:57   #40
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show me one
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