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Old 15 February 2010, 14:24   #81
gimbal
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Originally Posted by Dastardly View Post
I don't really consider Turrican 2 to be a platformer. I'd say it's more of an explorative run and gun game.
I'd agree if the game didn't have such anal time restrictions. Its more a "dash for the exit before time runs out" kind of deal. Hence I would call it a platformer again
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Old 15 February 2010, 14:55   #82
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I don't know if "Dash" is the right word... perhaps "slowly amble" or "proceed casually" towards the goal before the time limit is more apt.
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Old 15 February 2010, 17:10   #83
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Originally Posted by Dan Locke View Post
I guess that... Superfrog, and Brian the Lion aren't platformers either?
Of course they are. But if you're suggesting the Turrican series is similar to Superfrog and Brian the Lion there's no way we can agree.
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Does your definition of "platformer" include anything besides single-screen Taito arcade games?
Yes, but the definition is not that far off. Anyone who's played lots of platformers can confirm that. Take the "single-screen" bit out, and you're close.
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If Bubble Bobble had levels bigger than the screen, would it cease to be a platformer as well?
It wouldn't be Bubble Bobble. It's not the size of the levels that makes a difference, it's what the game allows you to do within them.
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As somebody who has played the Turrican games a great deal, I can safely say that you're completely wrong. Half of the time, you can kill enemies by simply rolling into them or jumping on them, and you often have to do a lot of backtracking if you miss a jump.
It's quite an original way of playing Turri, jumping or rolling on enemies half of the time. It's also strange you seem to forget that on the first Turrican, jumping on enemies isn't even possible.
As for the R-Type connection, it was made in a broader shoot'em'up sense, in contrast to platformers. Doesn't the "hold the fire button" laser ring any bells? But again, it's my opinion. I'm sure you'll not find many to agree with you, on the importance of the Turrican time limit. In the first Turrican (the defining one), the time limit borders on the ridiculous.
To stay a bit on topic, another fine platformer is Lupo Alberto. Is it similar to Turrican? (Exploring, jumping, shooting sometimes... it's all there) - It isn't.
(edit: phew, sorry, already mentioned Lupo more than 2 years ago in this thread! )

Last edited by wanderer; 15 February 2010 at 17:25.
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Old 18 February 2010, 04:27   #84
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Of course they are. But if you're suggesting the Turrican series is similar to Superfrog and Brian the Lion there's no way we can agree.
I wasn't saying that at all. I was replying to this comment:

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Originally Posted by wanderer View Post
But that's the point. A true platformer will never give you the amount of exploring freedom Turrican does.
By that logic, Superfrog must not be a "true" platformer. By extension, Sonic 3 is even further from platformer-hood.

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Originally Posted by wanderer View Post
Yes, but the definition is not that far off. Anyone who's played lots of platformers can confirm that. Take the "single-screen" bit out, and you're close.
Like I said before, though, what does that make all of those Sonic the Hedgehog-wannabes with their secret areas and trampolines and moving platforms? They are to Taito games what R-Type is to Space Invaders, as far as relative complexity goes.

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It wouldn't be Bubble Bobble. It's not the size of the levels that makes a difference, it's what the game allows you to do within them.
Please enlighten me on what a non-platformer allows you to do that a "true" platformer doesn't.

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It's quite an original way of playing Turri, jumping or rolling on enemies half of the time.
You should try it sometime. It's effective for avoiding damage.

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Originally Posted by wanderer View Post
It's also strange you seem to forget that on the first Turrican, jumping on enemies isn't even possible.
So?

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Originally Posted by wanderer View Post
As for the R-Type connection, it was made in a broader shoot'em'up sense, in contrast to platformers. Doesn't the "hold the fire button" laser ring any bells?
No. I don't remember being able to fire a constant, aimable stream of bullets in R-Type, and I certainly don't remember being able to charge up a powerful blast in the Turrican games.

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Originally Posted by wanderer View Post
But again, it's my opinion. I'm sure you'll not find many to agree with you, on the importance of the Turrican time limit. In the first Turrican (the defining one), the time limit borders on the ridiculous.
In the second Turrican (the good one), they FIXED it.
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Old 23 February 2010, 13:08   #85
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Yeah. Turrican II is probably my favorite C64 game, actually. And I said "relatively small" - there are rather large areas that are completely devoid of enemies, and when enemies do appear, they don't come close to swamping the player like the enemies in Gunstar Heroes do.
Actually, this is inaccurate. You can be swamped by enemies very quickly in Turrican 2 if you don't wave your gun around a fair bit. In fact, in Turrican 2 you can die much quicker than in Gunstar Heroes by not shooting shit up, because the enemies appear acutely and must be dealt with immediately, whereas in Gunstar Heroes there's just this chronic and seemingly passive swarm.

It all comes down to the pure vs. hybrid thing. To spell it out, to spoon feed you: Turrican 2 = hybrid of run n gun/platformer, Gunstar Heroes = pure run n gun.

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My point is that you stay alive in order to get further into the levels and explore them. In Gunstar Heroes, the primary focus is on shooting the ever-reappearing enemies and moving forwards when you can. By your logic, I might as well say that Sonic the Hedgehog's primary emphasis is on bumping into things while airborne.
What nonsense; please see above. You shoot shit up, jump a bit, shoot, jump a bit, shoot, fight the boss, etc. The game is just a hybrid; nothing more , nothing less. I've merely addressing your belittlement of the run n gun aspect of the game. Bleat all you want that the emphasis is on exploration; you're wrong, because there is no emphasis. You need an aim and some serious structure a la Super Metroid for emphasis to be on that.

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I never got into the genre myself, mainly because of its almost nonexistent emphasis on platforming and level design - something which the Turrican games have in spades, actually.
Yes, and the Turrican games have a lot of shooting, too. See how I can see both sides? (BTW, there's really not mountains of level design in Turrican 2, which is mostly a package of aimlessness/stucturelessness. Compare Super Metroid, Flashback etc.)

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Sorry; it was the only word that I could think of at the time. Maybe "enhancement" would work better?
No, the enchancement doesn't really suit your tone. "Belittlement" is a better word for you in this instance.

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Well, yeah, that's generally the case when games have multiple onscreen enemies. But then you're getting into the kind of thing that I talked about with my "Sonic the Hedgehog is about bumping into things" analogy.
To continue my analogy, shooting would be the _lens_ of the camera.

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Because Manfred Trenz was just being frivolous when he put in all of those secret passageways and bonus caves and branching pathways. Play the second world of Turrican II to see what I mean.
"Frivolous" has a negative connotation but I can't think of a better word right now, so that will have to do.

Quote:
Which really makes no sense at all. Would choppier animation have made those games better in any way? If not, how can smoother animation be a detriment?
You've never animated a single walk cycle in your life have you? I love how you pull these words outta your arse hole like "choppier" and "smoother" when my comments pertained to number of animation frames dedicated to superfluous and _incidental_ (i.e., non-core mechanic) event-anims in DKC/EWJ. It amuses me.

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Let me know where Earthworm Jim does that, because I've played it through and never encountered anything of the sort. I do agree about Donkey Kong Country trying to dress up a lackluster engine with "pretty" graphics, though (I actually hate that '90s plastic look with a passion).
Well, I've encoutered foreground fighting with action for my attention in EWJ quite a few times. I remember jumping back from my screen, shouting "get the fuck outta the way!", just as I would if someone in real life actually stood in front it.

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If you're talking about Earthworm Jim, that's only the case for the SNES port; the SNES has a much lower resolution than the Genesis's, and a game originally developed for the Genesis will naturally be worse on the SNES. That's actually the main reason why I prefer the Genesis version.
Actually, I was referring to DKC.

Quote:
I could understand your statement if you were comparing it to something like Brian the Lion or Bubsy the Bobcat, but neither Earthworm Jim nor Donkey Kong Country do that kind of thing.
Incorrect. I only died three or four times from it, but that's unforgiveable. I speak here of both EWJ foreground blindness and DKC edge-screen blindness. Very shit game design, made worse since the germ of it lies in "eye candy for the masses".

Quote:
Excuse me? Donkey Kong Country is easy to the point of being dull (unless we're talking about the barrel-cannon areas, which actuallly do require "skill and timing" to pull off), but Earthworm Jim is both hard and fair. And since when is eye candy a bad thing if it's part of a great game? There's a reason that game reviews rate graphical presentation.
The barrel-cannon sequences were hard for you? Man, you seriously need to play a Taito _scrolling-screen_ (i.e., non-Bubble Bobble) plaformer. It really is the only way to sharpen those blunted skills of yours.

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So a game can only have good gameplay if the developers focus on that aspect to the exclusion of everything else? Am I missing something here? Believe it or not, a game can be both fun and polished; it's not like the developers trade one off for the other. There are good games with bad graphics, bad games with good graphics, good games with good graphics, and bad games with bad graphics. It's silly to say that a game with good graphics can't also have polished gameplay.
It is silly, very silly; luckily no one's done that yet, huh?

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How is the little boy (or whatever he his; I can't tell because of the ugly graphics) in Rainbow Islands "more responsive and enjoyable to manipulate" than Earthworm Jim is? He's slower (less responsive) and his vertical movement has a fixed speed (acceleration makes Earthworm Jim's controls more enjoyable).
I wasn't going to bother answering this because the question is riddled with ignorance of that Taito game, but I will _briefly_ for your benefit.

1. he's not slower or less responsive than EWJ (please play beyond round 1 and pick up at least 3 power ups)
2. the vertical scrolling speed is not fixed.

Quote:
Don't take my comment about Rainbow Islands's graphics the wrong way; it was just a counterpoint to your obvious disdain for Earthworm Jim's excellent graphical polish (with animation frames drawn by the character's designer himself).
Well, you said the GFX were ugly. What an hilariously nonesensical comment. I don't have disdain for EWJ's polish - only where it distracts or detracts from the kernal of platforming (moving around, jumping, shooting, _getting on with the game_ without extraneous anim frames encroaching from the cartoon industry).

In short, Rainbow Islands + NZ Story >> EWJ + DKC! :-)

Last edited by Falcon Flight; 23 February 2010 at 13:14.
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Old 23 February 2010, 13:23   #86
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someone has abused the multi quote feature
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Old 23 February 2010, 13:45   #87
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Meh, Turrican 2 is still a platformer to me
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Old 23 February 2010, 13:47   #88
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of course it is, it has bloody platforms to climb!
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Old 23 February 2010, 15:38   #89
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Meh, Turrican 2 is still a platformer to me
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Originally Posted by Paul_s View Post
of course it is, it has bloody platforms to climb!
-> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Platformer
"Games like Shadow of the Beast and Turrican showed that computer platform games could rival the graphics and sound of their console contemporaries, and Prince of Persia featured an unprecedented level of animation."
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Old 24 February 2010, 00:20   #90
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Actually, this is inaccurate. You can be swamped by enemies very quickly in Turrican 2 if you don't wave your gun around a fair bit. In fact, in Turrican 2 you can die much quicker than in Gunstar Heroes by not shooting shit up, because the enemies appear acutely and must be dealt with immediately, whereas in Gunstar Heroes there's just this chronic and seemingly passive swarm.
Well, yeah, you have to shoot them when they're there at all. There are large areas with no enemies to speak of.

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Originally Posted by Falcon Flight View Post
It all comes down to the pure vs. hybrid thing. To spell it out, to spoon feed you: Turrican 2 = hybrid of run n gun/platformer, Gunstar Heroes = pure run n gun.
A run 'n' gun is a type of platformer, so I really don't see how the whole "hybrid" thing would work. Here's how it goes:

Platformer: Any game that combines lateral movement with jumping. Examples include everything from Donkey Kong to LittleBigPlanet.

Run 'n' Gun: A platformer that focuses on running, gunning, and little else. Examples include games like Astro Marine Corps, Metal Slug, and Gunstar Heroes.

Capisce?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Falcon Flight View Post
What nonsense; please see above. You shoot shit up, jump a bit, shoot, jump a bit, shoot, fight the boss, etc. The game is just a hybrid; nothing more , nothing less. I've merely addressing your belittlement of the run n gun aspect of the game. Bleat all you want that the emphasis is on exploration; you're wrong, because there is no emphasis. You need an aim and some serious structure a la Super Metroid for emphasis to be on that.
I didn't say that the emphasis was on exploration; I said that it had emphasis on exploration. Again, play the second world of Turrican II if you can't see that. Those games have room for exploration (and, indeed, reward exploration) in a way that run 'n' guns do not. It isn't non-linear, but you miss out on two thirds of the levels if you just run straight through them without taking the time to look around and explore them.

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Yes, and the Turrican games have a lot of shooting, too. See how I can see both sides?
Of what?

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Originally Posted by Falcon Flight View Post
(BTW, there's really not mountains of level design in Turrican 2, which is mostly a package of aimlessness/stucturelessness. Compare Super Metroid, Flashback etc.)
You keep calling the games "aimless", but you really haven't explained why they are so. If anything, Super Metroid is the one that's "aimless", considering that you just wander around looking for abilities until you're able to fight the final boss. It's an awesome game, by the way.

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No, the enchancement doesn't really suit your tone. "Belittlement" is a better word for you in this instance.
Unless I somehow managed to unwittingly say that shooting detracts from the games, I can't make head or tail of what you just said.

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Originally Posted by Falcon Flight View Post
To continue my analogy, shooting would be the _lens_ of the camera.
You can't have a camera without a lens, but you can have a game without shooting. How exactly is that "analogy" supposed to apply to anything that we're talking about?

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Originally Posted by Falcon Flight View Post
"Frivolous" has a negative connotation but I can't think of a better word right now, so that will have to do.
I don't understand.

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Originally Posted by Falcon Flight View Post
You've never animated a single walk cycle in your life have you?
I have. It was two frames long and looked like garbage, but I did.

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Originally Posted by Falcon Flight View Post
I love how you pull these words outta your arse hole like "choppier" and "smoother" when my comments pertained to number of animation frames dedicated to superfluous and _incidental_ (i.e., non-core mechanic) event-anims in DKC/EWJ. It amuses me.
I really don't see your point. Fluidity is an attribute that applies to all animation, regardless of its use or context.

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Originally Posted by Falcon Flight View Post
Well, I've encoutered foreground fighting with action for my attention in EWJ quite a few times. I remember jumping back from my screen, shouting "get the fuck outta the way!", just as I would if someone in real life actually stood in front it.
Please name the level that had it, because I've played up to the halfway point of the Peter Puppy level without seeing it once.

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Originally Posted by Falcon Flight View Post
Actually, I was referring to DKC.
The minecart levels, right? Those were a chore to play; it was like Rick Dangerous all over again.

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Originally Posted by Falcon Flight View Post
Incorrect. I only died three or four times from it, but that's unforgiveable. I speak here of both EWJ foreground blindness and DKC edge-screen blindness. Very shit game design, made worse since the germ of it lies in "eye candy for the masses".
As opposed to eye candy for the elite? And I don't remember any such blinkering in Donkey Kong Country's main levels, however prominent it was in other areas.

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The barrel-cannon sequences were hard for you?
No. I said that they weren't "easy to the point of being dull". Read my posts. If you are already doing so, stop twisting my words.

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Originally Posted by Falcon Flight View Post
Man, you seriously need to play a Taito _scrolling-screen_ (i.e., non-Bubble Bobble) plaformer. It really is the only way to sharpen those blunted skills of yours.
No need to be a jerk and insult my platform skills. I suppose that I'm also gay and live in my mother's basement?

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It is silly, very silly; luckily no one's done that yet, huh?
Done what? Beaten on a game for having good graphics?

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Originally Posted by Falcon Flight View Post
I wasn't going to bother answering this because the question is riddled with ignorance of that Taito game, but I will _briefly_ for your benefit.

1. he's not slower or less responsive than EWJ (please play beyond round 1 and pick up at least 3 power ups)
He is slower. I can feel it when I'm playing, in the same way that I can feel the difference between Arabian Nights and Leander.

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2. the vertical scrolling speed is not fixed.
Not the vertical scrolling; the vertical sprite movement. The kid slides up the screen at a constant speed, then abruptly starts sliding down at the same speed. There's no acceleration to speak of. Given an empty level, you could fall all the way from the top to the bottom without speeding up in the slightest.

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Well, you said the GFX were ugly. What an hilariously nonesensical comment.
I didn't mean it; I only said it in response to your comment that Earthworm Jim's animation was superfluous (and implication that it shouldn't have been used to such an extent). Of course, this is the exact same thing that I said in the section that you quoted, but, if you didn't listen then, you aren't likely to listen now.

As far as I'm concerned, Rainbow Islands's graphics are actually quite a bit better than those of other 8-bit arcade games of the same generation.

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Originally Posted by Falcon Flight View Post
I don't have disdain for EWJ's polish - only where it distracts or detracts from the kernal
Were you on the C64 dev team? Because they're the only other people who spell "kernel" with an A.

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Originally Posted by Falcon Flight View Post
of platforming (moving around, jumping, shooting, _getting on with the game_ without extraneous anim frames encroaching from the cartoon industry).
Again I'll say it: how the heck do good graphics take away from gameplay? Is smooth animation something that only cartoons have the right to use? Must a walk cycle have no more than four frames?

Seriously, how is it even possible for smooth animation to worsen "moving around, jumping, shooting _getting on with the game_"? Is the game literally harder to play because of its graphical polish? I seriously have no clue how you can say that with a straight face.

The engine doesn't care a bit about the graphics that you stick on top of it.

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Originally Posted by Falcon Flight View Post
In short, Rainbow Islands + NZ Story >> EWJ + DKC! :-)
In short, all four are awesome games (except for Donkey Kong Country), but Super Metroid is even better.

Last edited by Dan Locke; 25 February 2010 at 17:02.
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Old 24 February 2010, 21:52   #91
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Super Metroid isn't better if you just don't like the style that is to go back and fourth through the map.Personally i love it

And this has turned into a right pointless thread
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Old 25 February 2010, 21:17   #92
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Super Metroid isn't better if you just don't like the style that is to go back and fourth through the map.Personally i love it

And this has turned into a right pointless thread
Best platformer / shoot em up game I've played ever, I think. 100% smooth gameplay, it breathes atmosphere and is chock full of secret areas, I absolutely love it.
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Old 25 February 2010, 21:27   #93
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Best platformer / shoot em up game I've played ever, I think. 100% smooth gameplay, it breathes atmosphere and is chock full of secret areas, I absolutely love it.
Indeed it's something special
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Old 03 March 2010, 11:00   #94
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This is a really tough one, but i'd have to go for either Turrican 2, or Beast. Both classics! Also I quite liked Leander..
 
Old 03 March 2010, 13:10   #95
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I have to agree - Turrican is a platformer.

Jet Set Willy was a platformer; Turrican is Jet Set Willy with a gun. You can't jump and sail through the stairs, and there's no mess to collect up, and the enemies don't follow set patterns and there's no trip switch, but it's still the same game underneath.

Oh, and it doesn't have a bathroom either. But still.

D.
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Old 03 March 2010, 17:40   #96
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Old 10 February 2016, 17:35   #97
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Turrican, Beast 1, and from last years I like feeling of both Enemy games, although their jumping mechanism, overal complexity and lack of my time keep me from play them more.
Furry of the furries was also nice, if we can consider it a platformer...
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Old 10 February 2016, 18:46   #98
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Turrican 2



imho 2
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Old 10 February 2016, 19:08   #99
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There are quite a few excellent platformers. Two that stand out most for me are Turrican 2 and Robocod.
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Old 10 February 2016, 19:35   #100
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Sudden thread resurrection!
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