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Old 10 May 2007, 01:18   #41
Retro-Nerd
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Yeah, a lot different genres. As you mentioned the platform games differs a lot in scrolling/single/multi screen games, mixes with pure shooter levels etc.
Same for the shooter in horizontal/vertical/multidirectional scrolling/3D.

But i guess they are needed. Only the category "Platformer" or "Shooter" is not enough to decribe a specific game.
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Old 10 May 2007, 01:34   #42
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Originally Posted by Retro-Nerd
But i guess they are needed. Only the category "Platformer" or "Shooter" is not enough to decribe a specific game.
Nope, most often it isn't. Especially not 'shooter' because that can mean exactly whatever concerning being able to fire a gund (or something similar). So, yes, I do agree... they are needed, but they are very hard to deal with, at times...

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Old 23 May 2007, 07:53   #43
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I agree with those that have mentioned Gods, SotB and Turrican 1/2/3 but there are a couple that I'm fond of that haven't been mentioned yet. How about Mike the Magic Dragon, Aunt Arctic Adventure and my all time favorite, Leander? Lost track of the hours I've spent on those.
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Old 23 May 2007, 11:47   #44
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Ruff n' Tumble? That was one of the last Amiga platformers, and it suffered terribly from trying to be a console game. It was complete crap on a stick compared to Rainbow Islands, by far and away the best (and hardest) platformer on the Amiga. I doubt many people even completed it. Ahem. Excuse my crankiness..................
 
Old 31 May 2007, 11:01   #45
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Thats not a platformer you complete Targ Explorer!!!!


*hehehe*
How about Superfrog
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Old 07 February 2010, 08:39   #46
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Originally Posted by Retro-Nerd View Post
I know what you meant, platformer is to vage. For me it looks like this:

Single Screen Platformer:

Rainbow Island
Parasol Stars
Snow Brothers
Rodland
Bubble Bobble
LOL. How are Rainbow Islands and Parasol Stars single screen platformers? The former scrolls vertically and the latter, at least on some later levels, scrolls horizontally...

Quote:
Scrolling Platformer:

Giana Sisters
Superfrog
Fire & Ice
Aladdin
B. C. Kid (awesome PC-Engine port of Bonk)



Run'n'Gun & Arcade games:

Turrican I & II
Lionheart
Ruff'n'Tumble
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Old 07 February 2010, 09:08   #47
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I mean... should one define Turrican II as a platformer? Or a shooter? Or both, as in the run'n'gun? But then, what about the SHMUP-stages? What do we get then? A run'n'gun/SHMUP? Or should one actually call it a platformer/shooter/SHMUP? Crazy shit, it is...
I think these problems arise when some games, like Turrican 2, attempt to expand beyond their limits.

The horizontal SHMUP segments of that game distract and detract from the run n gun/platforming purity of it, IMHO. (The same goes for the tunnel segments in Star Dust.)

"Every game attempts to expand until it can read emails."
I'm no programmer, but I can't agree more with this UNIX thought:
"Do one thing and do it well."

I look at many games on Amiga and other platforms and think that if they just did away with these silly mini games, trying to add bit and pieces of fall-off shit to it, and concentrated on the *core* of what *makes it*, they'd be even better than they are.

There was another thread recently and Soccer Kid and Arabian Nights came up. The former would do well to remove the ball mechanic and the latter would do even better to remove those *atrocious* horizontally scrolling pseudo SHMUP levels, because, frankly, they're DIRE.

Anyway, just call Turrican 2, Turrican 2. If someone asks you what it is, tell them it's Turrican 2, and that it's great. Surely that's enough! :-)
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Old 07 February 2010, 09:19   #48
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Lets not forget "Naughty Ones"...
it was fun...
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Old 08 February 2010, 16:24   #49
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I'd say that Flashback is the best, but Ruff 'n' Tumble, Lionheart, and Benefactor are also great.

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Originally Posted by Legerdemain View Post
I mean... should one define Turrican II as a platformer? Or a shooter? Or both, as in the run'n'gun? But then, what about the SHMUP-stages? What do we get then? A run'n'gun/SHMUP? Or should one actually call it a platformer/shooter/SHMUP? Crazy shit, it is...
It's a platformer with a gun. Two of the levels happen to be horizontal shoot-em-ups, but the main game is a platformer. A run 'n' gun would be something more like Astro Marine Corps or Gunstar Heroes, which put far more emphasis on shooting than they do on level structure.
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Old 08 February 2010, 18:43   #50
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I think it depends on the amount of jumping and moving around to define a platformer. Shooting is more important in Turrican than jumping etc. For me, it's not a platformer. And there's no cuteness in it whatsoever.
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Old 08 February 2010, 19:23   #51
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Originally Posted by Codetapper View Post
Both Turrican 2 and Superfrog are crap - Stuart Campbell says so, therefore it must be fact

My favs in alphabetical order:

Bubble Bobble
Giana Sisters
Pang
Qwak
Rainbow Islands
Rodland
Snow Bros (surprised nobody has mentioned this one!)
Superfrog
Turrican 2
they are wrong! Two years late but meh
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Old 08 February 2010, 20:36   #52
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Originally Posted by wanderer View Post
I think it depends on the amount of jumping and moving around to define a platformer. Shooting is more important in Turrican than jumping etc.
Excuse me? Turrican has a huge emphasis on exploring the levels, which involves "jumping and moving around". Yes, you do shoot enemies, but that's an accessory feature to the underlying platform game.

Contrast this with Ghosts 'n' Goblins - enemies come at you from all directions, and you're far more concerned with throwing swords at them than you are about exploring the levels (ha!) and making it across gaps (nonexistent).

Or, to use an analogy, would Sonic the Hedgehog cease to be a platformer if I gave Sonic a space suit and a ray gun? What about Superfrog - he ends up getting a "spud" to throw at enemies. And the Force Blade in Leander has essentially the same function as a gun, but you'd be hard-pressed to find someone who wouldn't call it a platformer.

Besides, run 'n' guns are just a subset of platformers anyway.

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For me, it's not a platformer. And there's no cuteness in it whatsoever.
What does cuteness have to do with anything?

Last edited by Dan Locke; 08 February 2010 at 20:44.
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Old 09 February 2010, 00:16   #53
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Originally Posted by wanderer View Post
I think it depends on the amount of jumping and moving around to define a platformer. Shooting is more important in Turrican than jumping etc. For me, it's not a platformer. And there's no cuteness in it whatsoever.
Gah... :-)
Shooting and platforming in Turrican 2 are of equal significance. I know before I said just call Turrican 2, Turrican 2, but if I had to pigeon hole it, I'd call it "hybrid of platforming and run n gun" ("with utterly irrelevant SHMUP levels.")

I can see why you would equate platformer with cuteness or simplicity, as with many platform franchises, that *is* the standard. This helps people focus on core mechanics, and not be distracted.

This is why I don't personally like Earthworm Jim or Donkey Kong Country; I believe the superb animation distracts from the core of the game. Those two games have nothing on Taito conversion on the Amiga (Graftgold especially were gurus!), in the core of platforming goodness.

I don't want to watch my character and admire him; I want to move him and admire my skills.

So cute Taito platformers, ftw. :-)
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Old 09 February 2010, 01:38   #54
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Originally Posted by Dan Locke View Post
Excuse me? Turrican has a huge emphasis on exploring the levels, which involves "jumping and moving around". Yes, you do shoot enemies, but that's an accessory feature to the underlying platform game.
As I said in the above post, I wouldn't belittle the run n gun aspect as an "accessory" feature because if you don't shoot a shit load in Turrican 2, you're not gonna end up exploring those levels at all; you're gonna be dead.
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Old 09 February 2010, 02:12   #55
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As I said in the above post, I wouldn't belittle the run n gun aspect as an "accessory" feature because if you don't shoot a shit load in Turrican 2, you're not gonna end up exploring those levels at all; you're gonna be dead.
Well, yeah, if you put a gun in a game, you'll also add a use for it - it's pretty stupid, otherwise. There's still a fantastic amount of emphasis on exploring the levels, though, and there's also the matter of being able to kill certain enemies by jumping on them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Falcon Flight View Post
I don't personally like Earthworm Jim or Donkey Kong Country; I believe the superb animation distracts from the core of the game. Those two games have nothing on Taito conversion on the Amiga (Graftgold especially were gurus!), in the core of platforming goodness.

I don't want to watch my character and admire him; I want to move him and admire my skills.
I'm confused. You dislike good graphics? Why can't you admire your skills at moving a well-rendered character?
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Old 09 February 2010, 02:24   #56
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Well, yeah, if you put a gun in a game, you'll also add a use for it - it's pretty stupid, otherwise.
My argument is that the use of it is not a mere accessory but a significant aspect of getting through the game.

Quote:
There's still a fantastic amount of emphasis on exploring the levels, though, and there's also the matter of being able to kill certain enemies by jumping on them.
The emphasis is neither on one nor the other. The game is a hybrid, IMO. There's a reason you've got a 360 degree rotating gun. Compare Turrican 2 with Super Metroid, which has *real* explorative aspects, and where killing lots of enemies is not fundamental, as they can much more easily be eluded and even ignored entirely.

Quote:
I'm confused. You dislike good graphics? Why can't you admire your skills at moving a well-rendered character?
I'm confused. You're extending my argument? I don't dislike well rendered GFX; I just find them unnecessary. Mechanics are far more important, and I didn't find that any incidental animations in Donkey Kong Country added anything whatsoever to the core mechanic of what that game's supposed to be. Gimme a Taito game anyday; they have gameplay and concentrate on core mechanic, not eye candy.
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Old 09 February 2010, 03:56   #57
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My argument is that the use of it is not a mere accessory but a significant aspect of getting through the game.
Oh, I'm not denying its significance. It's just that, most of the time, you're more concerned with where you're going (where does this tunnel go?) than with shooting enemies on the way. This is a result of the huge levels and relatively small enemy numbers.

In a game like Gunstar Heroes, though, the priorities are completely switched - you're mostly just running along a straight path with a few ledges here and there for variety, while gunning down legions of enemies that constantly attack you. Consequentially, you're going to be a lot more concerned with simply staying alive (these guys are EVERYWHERE!) than with finding special areas and hopping across platforms.

See what I mean? When I say "accessory", I mean "mechanic that enhances, but does not supplant, the game's core idea".

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Originally Posted by Falcon Flight View Post
Compare Turrican 2 with Super Metroid, which has *real* explorative aspects, and where killing lots of enemies is not fundamental, as they can much more easily be eluded and even ignored entirely.
I would love to see someone get through Super Metroid without killing any enemies.

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Originally Posted by Falcon Flight View Post
I'm confused. You're extending my argument? I don't dislike well rendered GFX; I just find them unnecessary. Mechanics are far more important, and I didn't find that any incidental animations in Donkey Kong Country added anything whatsoever to the core mechanic of what that game's supposed to be.
That's not what you said, though. To quote: "This is why I don't personally like Earthworm Jim or Donkey Kong Country; I believe the superb animation distracts from the core of the game." If you aren't saying, "I don't like console platformers because their good graphics distract me from the underlying gameplay," please enlighten me, because I hate misunderstandings.

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Originally Posted by Falcon Flight View Post
Gimme a Taito game anyday; they have gameplay and concentrate on core mechanic
And Earthworm Jim doesn't?
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Old 09 February 2010, 05:41   #58
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Oh, I'm not denying its significance. It's just that, most of the time, you're more concerned with where you're going (where does this tunnel go?) than with shooting enemies on the way. This is a result of the huge levels and relatively small enemy numbers.
Small enemy numbers? Ever played the game? And no, I believe first and foremost you're concerned with staying alive by shooting the shit outta stuff - or your preference, jumping on their heads in Mario manner - because it's kinda difficult to explore a game world when you're dead.

Quote:
In a game like Gunstar Heroes, though, the priorities are completely switched - you're mostly just running along a straight path with a few ledges here and there for variety, while gunning down legions of enemies that constantly attack you. Consequentially, you're going to be a lot more concerned with simply staying alive (these guys are EVERYWHERE!) than with finding special areas and hopping across platforms.
Yeah, I'd say Gunstar Heroes is a pure run n gun game, similar in vein to Metal Slug, but even more repetitive, and boring, IMO.

Quote:
See what I mean? When I say "accessory", I mean "mechanic that enhances, but does not supplant, the game's core idea".
Well, thanks for clearing up what your defininition for "accessory" is. That's not the commonly held one in plain English, or the O.E.D.

i.e., shooting is not the lens cap and platforming/exploration is not the camera. They're much more even than that.

Quote:
I would love to see someone get through Super Metroid without killing any enemies.
I don't know if any one's done it, but I certainly found myself rolling my eyes and either eluding or avoiding entirely. The emphasis in that game is explorative; Turrican 2's more about shooting shit up and jumping from here to there; exploratively, it's actually rather aimless.

Quote:
That's not what you said, though. To quote: "This is why I don't personally like Earthworm Jim or Donkey Kong Country; I believe the superb animation distracts from the core of the game." If you aren't saying, "I don't like console platformers because their good graphics distract me from the underlying gameplay," please enlighten me, because I hate misunderstandings.
My first assertion was about EWJ and DKC character animation distracting from a core platform game. Another aspect of them I dislike is the scenery in the foreground blinding me to pure action, of which there is little enough in both games as it is... there is even completely unfair edge-screen blindness. When I die in a Taito game, or something like Super Mario World, at least it's my fault, not one of poor game design. EWJ/DKC are mildly amusing eye candy platformers which require little skill and timing compared to Taito's stuff, and SMW etc.

My second assertion pertained only to not disliking well rendered GFX in general.

Quote:
And Earthworm Jim doesn't?
No, it doesn't. The designers were also fixated on eye candy.
Also, Rainbow Islands is far more sophisticated in testing the player's skills than EWJ is. I also believe that, even though the controllable character is "cute" in the former, it is more responsive and enjoyable to manipulate than the latter, even with all those (superfluous) anim frames.
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Old 09 February 2010, 05:41   #59
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First Samurai and The Lion King.
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Old 09 February 2010, 23:51   #60
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Small enemy numbers? Ever played the game?
Yeah. Turrican II is probably my favorite C64 game, actually. And I said "relatively small" - there are rather large areas that are completely devoid of enemies, and when enemies do appear, they don't come close to swamping the player like the enemies in Gunstar Heroes do.

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Originally Posted by Falcon Flight View Post
And no, I believe first and foremost you're concerned with staying alive by shooting the shit outta stuff - or your preference, jumping on their heads in Mario manner - because it's kinda difficult to explore a game world when you're dead.
My point is that you stay alive in order to get further into the levels and explore them. In Gunstar Heroes, the primary focus is on shooting the ever-reappearing enemies and moving forwards when you can. By your logic, I might as well say that Sonic the Hedgehog's primary emphasis is on bumping into things while airborne.

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Yeah, I'd say Gunstar Heroes is a pure run n gun game, similar in vein to Metal Slug, but even more repetitive, and boring, IMO.
I never got into the genre myself, mainly because of its almost nonexistent emphasis on platforming and level design - something which the Turrican games have in spades, actually.

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Well, thanks for clearing up what your defininition for "accessory" is. That's not the commonly held one in plain English, or the O.E.D.
Sorry; it was the only word that I could think of at the time. Maybe "enhancement" would work better?

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i.e., shooting is not the lens cap and platforming/exploration is not the camera. They're much more even than that.
Well, yeah, that's generally the case when games have multiple onscreen enemies. But then you're getting into the kind of thing that I talked about with my "Sonic the Hedgehog is about bumping into things" analogy.

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Originally Posted by Falcon Flight View Post
I don't know if any one's done it, but I certainly found myself rolling my eyes and either eluding or avoiding entirely. The emphasis in that game is explorative; Turrican 2's more about shooting shit up and jumping from here to there; exploratively, it's actually rather aimless.
Because Manfred Trenz was just being frivolous when he put in all of those secret passageways and bonus caves and branching pathways. Play the second world of Turrican II to see what I mean.

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Originally Posted by Falcon Flight View Post
My first assertion was about EWJ and DKC character animation distracting from a core platform game.
Which really makes no sense at all. Would choppier animation have made those games better in any way? If not, how can smoother animation be a detriment?

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Another aspect of them I dislike is the scenery in the foreground blinding me to pure action, of which there is little enough in both games as it is...
Let me know where Earthworm Jim does that, because I've played it through and never encountered anything of the sort. I do agree about Donkey Kong Country trying to dress up a lackluster engine with "pretty" graphics, though (I actually hate that '90s plastic look with a passion).

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Originally Posted by Falcon Flight View Post
there is even completely unfair edge-screen blindness.
If you're talking about Earthworm Jim, that's only the case for the SNES port; the SNES has a much lower resolution than the Genesis's, and a game originally developed for the Genesis will naturally be worse on the SNES. That's actually the main reason why I prefer the Genesis version.

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Originally Posted by Falcon Flight View Post
When I die in a Taito game, or something like Super Mario World, at least it's my fault, not one of poor game design.
I could understand your statement if you were comparing it to something like Brian the Lion or Bubsy the Bobcat, but neither Earthworm Jim nor Donkey Kong Country do that kind of thing.

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Originally Posted by Falcon Flight View Post
EWJ/DKC are mildly amusing eye candy platformers which require little skill and timing compared to Taito's stuff, and SMW etc.
Excuse me? Donkey Kong Country is easy to the point of being dull (unless we're talking about the barrel-cannon areas, which actuallly do require "skill and timing" to pull off), but Earthworm Jim is both hard and fair. And since when is eye candy a bad thing if it's part of a great game? There's a reason that game reviews rate graphical presentation.

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No, it doesn't. The designers were also fixated on eye candy.
So a game can only have good gameplay if the developers focus on that aspect to the exclusion of everything else? Am I missing something here? Believe it or not, a game can be both fun and polished; it's not like the developers trade one off for the other. There are good games with bad graphics, bad games with good graphics, good games with good graphics, and bad games with bad graphics. It's silly to say that a game with good graphics can't also have polished gameplay.

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Originally Posted by Falcon Flight View Post
Also, Rainbow Islands is far more sophisticated in testing the player's skills than EWJ is.
Elaborate.

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I also believe that, even though the controllable character is "cute" in the former, it is more responsive and enjoyable to manipulate than the latter, even with all those (superfluous) anim frames.
How is the little boy (or whatever he his; I can't tell because of the ugly graphics) in Rainbow Islands "more responsive and enjoyable to manipulate" than Earthworm Jim is? He's slower (less responsive) and his vertical movement has a fixed speed (acceleration makes Earthworm Jim's controls more enjoyable).

Don't take my comment about Rainbow Islands's graphics the wrong way; it was just a counterpoint to your obvious disdain for Earthworm Jim's excellent graphical polish (with animation frames drawn by the character's designer himself).

Last edited by Dan Locke; 10 February 2010 at 17:35.
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