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Old 05 January 2002, 16:47   #1
Bloodwych
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Another Amiga is the best PC sux thread!!

The brilliance of the Amiga OS truly amazes me. It’s so simple yet so powerful.

After using an A4000 with Picasso96 and all the Workbench add-ons (a bit like AIAB) it really got my mind ticking on the question what if?

I mean here is a machine 10 years old with barely the CPU power of an ancient 486SX processor, no swap file usage, an 8 year old dinosaur VGA chip, decade old custom chipset, 16Mb RAM (with the OS only using 2MB, or a few hundred kilobytes with WB3.1!!!!) looking and feeling modern.

Compare how well this has aged to an equivalent PC of it’s time with it’s DOS reliance/problems, interrupt problems, crappy non-multitasking windows 3.11, no plug and play, compatibility issues – you get the idea. The only way the PC has come close to the Amiga is through raw CPU power and lots of software work-a-rounds that require 256MB RAM and 2000MIPS just to get going. In comparison, a fully “bloated” Amiga OS like outlined on the A4000 above can still operate on 2MIPS and 4MB RAM (A1200).

As far as I’m concerned the world has become too reliant on pure power masking an out-dated POS platform. You only have to look around computer forums for the huge problems created by modern hardware and understand the shear resources an OS has to use in order to make PCs operate.

Fact is the PC is an ancient design masking its weak architecture with bloatware software, powerful CPUs and modern video chips. It’s crippled by its quest for backwards compatibility to a design that should have died out ages ago. Essentially, it’s screaming for a complete redesign/fresh start.

So I ask again what if?

What if the Amiga never went under?

What if its hardware was developed even up to this day?

What if workbench had continued to grow?

The fact is that the Amigas hardware and Workbench were so in tune with one-another they worked as one - it could offer true multitasking, plug and play compatibility, accessibility and more with as little as a few KB of RAM!! Incredible. It was a design far in advance of its time and I can only shudder to think what a modern day Amiga would have been like.

Imagine an Amiga with 128 bit QCS (Quantum chipset) , upgradeable RAM slots, 64-bit card slots, a 3000MIPS socket CPU and a socket GPU dedicated for 3D intensive tasks. All this without the crippling weaknesses of a PC and the strengths of the good old Amiga.

As we know, Commodore never worried too much about 100% backwards software compatibility so in essence we’d get a new Amiga chipset using the latest technology every few years. It would be a bit like how the modern consoles advance – for example the PS1 and PS2. The PS2 is a brand new design using latest technology, but still retains some PS1 compatibility although not 100%.

The Amiga could have been the most advanced home computer money can buy, just as the consoles are marketed as the most advanced gaming systems.

I know there would be problems with this ideal scenario, but just let me dream…………
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Old 05 January 2002, 22:46   #2
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Thank you, Bloodwych. I never get enough of this stuff. And to this day, it still angers me that the idiots of the world made the PC the dominant system (not that anything changes, since the same thing is happening today, only the preferred choice seems to be Microsoft product over its competitors).

Rather than my usual rant here, I will wait for Pyromania, since he and I became friends based upon his zealot-like chagrin towards the PC. But I will detail that stuff in a new thread.
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Old 06 January 2002, 11:12   #3
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my personal favourite FUCK-U-PC of the classic amiga is its HUGE supiority in producing sound. a gameboy could produce better music than the ibm compat's of the day.
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Old 06 January 2002, 16:43   #4
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yeah you can wish that, but MS's OS's provide about 2,000,000 times more functionality than AmigaDOS ever did. you can't get that added functionality without adding code.

bash all you want, but Ami never had OS support for 3D acceleration, multiprocessing, virtual memory, PC compatibility, scanners, cameras, weird joysticks, video-in capture cards (no there was *NO* *OS* support), better-than-stereo sound, playing music CD's, no common interface for programming SCSI/IDE hardware (SCSIDirect died before it really had a chance), alternative input devices, memory protection, tape backup units, zip drives, music generation, OLE, etc.

thats a *small* part of some of the features supported by Win2000/XP that are not supported by AmigaDOS, I haven't even delved into most of the MSFC functionality (a lot of which is unavailable on the Amiga, meaning that you would have to roll out a LOT of your own code to try & get similar functionality).

in summary, there's a huge amount of code which causes all the much ballyhooed "bloat", but its all this code which makes Windows programs interoperate so well, which is functionality that the Amiga never saw, even with ARexx (although ARexx was a great stab at it).

so by all means, if you want to be locked into pre-yesterdecade's hardware and software, the Amiga is an excellent choice.
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Old 06 January 2002, 17:45   #5
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thats a *small* part of some of the features supported by Win2000/XP that are not supported by AmigaDOS
That's not so surprising, we all know AmigaOS is a decade old, dead OS so why expect such features from it?
 
Old 06 January 2002, 23:02   #6
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burseg: sssh, i'm trying to raise a ruckus.
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Old 07 January 2002, 02:38   #7
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I want to reply (and I *do* have responses to many inconsistencies in your post), but I am still waiting for Pyro to give a more technically competent reply, then I will fill any holes he misses...
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Old 07 January 2002, 04:39   #8
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that's good that you think i have "inconsistencies" in my posts, i guess all that time i spent programming the amiga back in 89-92 must have not told me anything at all about how the machine works, or it's deficiencies (such as the pitiful audio.device which most programmers routinely chucked and used their own routines, or the graphics.library blitter routines which most programmers routinely chucked and used their own routines,spriite control routines which most programmers routinely chucked and used their own routines, or the *really* sad state of 3rd party graphics device support). the high points were pretty few and far between; IFF allowed you to create sampled sounds/instruments & graphics (so you at least didn't have to do that yourself) with other programs, the 68000 assemblers were pretty good... hmm, i can't really think about any other real "high" points... (HAM was not even a contender for most games because of artifacting when used in conjunction with blitter objects).

shadowfire (who amond other things spent 9 months working with the DMI Resolver TMS34010 based graphics card, which was a totally cool card (think "Mortal Kombat 2" quality graphics & animation when running native 34010 code) but gave up when Commodore filed chapter 11)

boy i might even have some source code disks with that work laying around somewhere although I know I threw that graphics card out a year ago.
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Old 07 January 2002, 09:04   #9
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Quote:
Originally posted by Shadowfire
bash all you want, but Ami never had OS support for 3D acceleration, multiprocessing, virtual memory, PC compatibility, scanners, cameras, weird joysticks, video-in capture cards (no there was *NO* *OS* support), better-than-stereo sound, playing music CD's, no common interface for programming SCSI/IDE hardware (SCSIDirect died before it really had a chance), alternative input devices, memory protection, tape backup units, zip drives, music generation, OLE, etc.
PC compatibility is in there. That's why slow-down programs exist for DOS games (which OS support for, ironically, has been dropped by M$) - so we can strike that one off.
Weird joysticks - ??? The standard of joysticks (9-pin D-sub) that the Amiga uses also provided support for every stick/pad that used that format. And no need to fiddle with drivers, either.
Better-than-stereo sound? The OS comes with a sound card? As I see it, one must buy a sound card (or deal with whatever the dealer installed) to have anything above beeps. And every sound card I have ever seen required drivers being installed.
Playing music CD's? What version of Workbench/AmigaDOS are we talking about here? You are obviously referring to a lot of current features of Windows, but probably comparing them to WB 1.3! Workbench currently supports music CD's (PlayCD program), mp3, wav, aiff, ahi, and avi/qt. CacheCDFS supports ISO9660, RockRidge, MacHFS, and Joliet (W95/98) formats.

As for alterative devices, well the OS currently supports zip/jaz drives and SCSI devices, although scanners and internal modems would be good. But developers and manufacturers typically provide such drivers and that's not an OS responsibility. Likewise you can say that Windows now provides virus protection, CD burning, etc. but we know that is a bad idea. I personally don't want piss-poor copies of commercial products provided by a company already over its head in just fixing the problems of the OS itself.

By the way: have you ever heard of MultiView and datatypes? This combination provides simplified functionality for obscure filetypes without all of the muss and fuss that Windows products put you through for global file support. And Workbench currently provides support for lha/lzx/dms/zip/etc., xad, internet/network access, web browser, email, and filetype recognition (as opposed to Windows' extension recognition),

And let's not forget the shell, which no version of Windows has an equivalent. Nor the alias command. Or a handful of others I could name.

What else...music creation? Windows comes with music creation software? I'd like to know more about that one...I admit, I haven't put XP through any kind of thorough going-over. Tell me more about what M$ includes in the OS for creating music.
Quote:
thats a *small* part of some of the features supported by Win2000/XP that are not supported by AmigaDOS...
Even smaller now...
Quote:
in summary, there's a huge amount of code which causes all the much ballyhooed "bloat", but its all this code which makes Windows programs interoperate so well, which is functionality that the Amiga never saw, even with ARexx (although ARexx was a great stab at it).

so by all means, if you want to be locked into pre-yesterdecade's hardware and software, the Amiga is an excellent choice.
[/B]
No, that bloat comes from code that is written by teams developing parallel with each other, but not together. If that wasn't the case, there wouldn't be so damn many bugs and patches. And badly written code, too, but that's to be expected when you're trying to be a jack-of-all-trades (and master of none). You speak of pre-yesterdecade's hardware, but essentially modern PC's are very close to what they were back then once you strip away all of the (add-on) cards. If the current Amigas (that others have spoke of on here) can support PCI cards, then modern day Amigas are not pre-yesterdecade after all.

Another thing about that bloat is that it's caused by using software to attempt hardware's job. Why else would processors have to be 500+MHz?!? Pure horsepower needed to make the Yugo go fast enough to win the race.

I mentioned inconsistencies in your post, yes. I didn't say you were stupid and never said you couldn't program. But as you noted, you programmed for the Amiga in 89-92. You need to realize that if you are going to describe the limitations of WB/AmigaDOS from that time era, then you should be comparing it to the features of Windows 3.x running on a 386/486.

And when you talk of games that chucked the audio.device, you leave out the fact that they chucked all of the stock OS libraries and just took over the whole damn machine. Which is why so many classic Amiga games kick so much ass and fit on a single floppy or 100k executable file. No PC ever accomplished that, even today. Take your PC down to low-level and see what kind of goodies you can come up with - especially that stand the test of time that so much Amiga software has done. Your equivalent PC file will be a CGA or EGA game that still requires a graphic card! It's no fair to mix comparisons of Amiga assembler programs that take over and hardware bang, with OS apps!
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Old 07 January 2002, 10:46   #10
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Reply to Shadowfires post

Amiga OS 3.9 supports many of the things you mentioned, others are best prvided for by 3rd party Amiga developers. It is not to good to have to much bloat in the OS.

3D acceleration= You need a PCI adaptor for Amiga to take advantage of this but just use Warp3D. Some people use a CubervisionPPC but this gfx card is not as fast as some of the latest supported via the Mediator PCI adaptor. Amiga has had 3D acc. since the release of CybervisionPPC back in 1998.

multiprocessing= My Phase 5 card runs an 060 & PPC at the same time. Sure I don't have two or three PPCs running but Amiga owners would only need this if they are doing complex 3d rendering. If that is something you have to do then a 64 processor or 128 processor Sun Box with Lightwave 7 is your best bet. Or the fasstest machine you can afford running Lightwave 7. The Amiga OS is a realtime OS and does not need lots of CPU's for general computer stuff. My A4000T switches between apps much faster than my 1.2Ghz AMD Windows XP crate. True I only have one CPU but it is going 1200 Mhz! My Amiga is only going 50Mhz with the 060 unless I run a PPC app or MorphOS.

virtual memory= Aminet has free solutions for this and the Amiga has had VM apps for sale for years. Even ImageFX has built in support for it. The question is why would anyone want VM built into the OS? A Harddisk is way to slow to be used as RAM, VM has been slowing Windows down for years. Memory is dirt cheap so who cares about this?

PC compatiblity= Commodore had hardware solutions for 286 & 386 (the bridgeboard) but Amiga owners did not care. The Amiga was one of the first computers that had emulators. The A1000 had a software XT emulator and AMAX was avail early in the Amiga's life (Let you emulate a Mac). They have been many others over the years like the Golden Gate 486 from Germany etc. MorphOS even has a port of Bochs

http://members.chello.se/nicholai/bochs.html

so we have been doing emulation for years, sure the PC is doing it now as well but the idea came from Amiga.

scanners/cameras= German apps like ScanQuix have great scanner support. ImageFX supports SCSI scanners and their are several apps the support diugital cameras, sure its not in the OS but it is avail from Aminet and 3rd party developers. That is one of the cool things about the Amiga, the great 3rd party developers and Aminet. Here are a few examples.

http://www.softhut.com/cgi-bin/test/...d=3909726_4190

http://www.softhut.com/cgi-bin/test/...d=3909726_4190

Again I don't want this in the OS, it is better as an add-on solution for those that need it. An OS needs to be fast, lean and mean.

Weird joysticks= Well Amiga has had it 's share of weird joysticks over the years we just did not need drivers for them. The Gravis Mousestick was a good example. Hell I even have an adaptor that lets me use Playstation joysticks (PSX Port).

http://www.softhut.com/cgi-bin/test/...d=3909726_4190

You can use almost any PC joystick you want on the Amiga if you have the adaptor, several different ones are sold. Wireless keyboards and other devices like wheel mice can be used as well.

http://www.softhut.com/cgi-bin/test/...d=3909726_4190

http://www.softhut.com/cgi-bin/test/...d=3909726_4190

http://www.softhut.com/cgi-bin/test/...d=3909726_4190

memory protection= This would be a nice add on for the Amiga OS, Aminet has a few but I have not tried them. MorphOS already supports this.

www.morphos.de

better-than-stereo sound= Add a soundcard like you have to on the PC, Amiga stock sound is a hell of alot better than PC speaker. The Amiga has had some cool sound cards over the years like Studio16, Flyer, etc. REPULSE seems to be the soundcard Amiga owners are buying today.

http://www.softhut.com/cgi-bin/test/...d=3909726_4190

Or if you have PCI in your Amiga just go to CompUSA and buy whatever high-end Soundblaster card you want.

playing music CD's= Amiga OS 35 & 3.9 include this but Amiga has been doing it for years. Look at the 1990 CDTV, one of the koolest CD Players you will ever see. Even a PS2 does not have an interface as nice as the one Jim Sachs made on CDTV & CD32.

tape backup= I was doing tape backup in 1991 via a 250MB SCSI tape drive, work fine for me but tapes are slow. Most people don't use them today. CD-R/CD-RW DVD-RAM/DVD-R/DVD/RW has taken over. The Amiga does not support DVD-R/RW yet, you should have brought that up.

zip drives= been there done that long ago, support is also built into Amiga OS 3.9

music generation= The Amiga was the gifted with the tracker and mods long ago. Soundtracker, Octmed etc. We also had the very cool Bars & Pipes Pro and SoundJam. B&P was so cool M$ snapped up that company but the code lives on as open-source on the Amiga. Mods were the MP3 of their day.

Windows XP= Includes stuff Workbench 1.0 had! The Say command and male/female voice based on what you type. It is better than what we had in 1985 but not by much.

AREXX= Windows is a ocean of everyone reinventing over and over.
I don't find that Windows apps have anything like AREXX, so much weird stuff is supported based on what company made it that developers don't know what to code to as far as scripting goes.

Newtek got it right on the PC with George in Aura and LWScript in Lightwave 7. But these are just types of AREXX.

In Amiga OS 3.9 even Workbench does AREXX.

pre-yesterdecade's hardware= My Amiga has the latest PCI cards that I picked up at CompUSA. Amithlon owners are running on the latest hardware as well although I still like real Amiga hardware with PCI added, so stuff like the Video Toaster Flyer, Phonepak & Studio 16 still work.

http://www.softhut.com/cgi-bin/test/...d=3909726_4190

http://www.softhut.com/cgi-bin/test/...d=3909726_4190

http://www.softhut.com/cgi-bin/test/...d=3909726_4190

http://www.softhut.com/cgi-bin/test/...d=3909726_4190

Printing= Something you left out, the Amiga OS does not support newer printers.

Thats why you need the ever cool Turbo Print!

http://www.softhut.com/cgi-bin/test/...d=3909726_4190
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Old 07 January 2002, 10:52   #11
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haha!! There you go ShadowFire No chance talking about windoze here ...

great written pyro/twistin .. !
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Old 07 January 2002, 17:59   #12
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This has to be most boring thread I have read in a while...I find it incredible that people could write so much about a dead subject.

Well done Shadowfire, ruckus raised!
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Old 07 January 2002, 23:12   #13
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I hardly consider it a real ruckus, though. Unfortunately those days have long passed. We are older and wiser now and take these things for what they are. I'm sorry you find it boring, but I'm sure there are others who are more interested in the Amiga and it's metamorphosis over the years from an orphan OS to its current state. Precious little about OS3.x is discussed here outside of the fact that we love/hate it, Amiga Inc. are parasites, or the debate over pirating/buying the CD.

One man's club soda is another man's imported tea.
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Old 08 January 2002, 00:47   #14
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birdy: its absolutely funny to see people who think that an Amiga could do all the things a PC can do, without the same bloatage that a PC has.

pyro: despite that there are 3rd party items, virtual memory, memory protection, multiprocessing, 3D acceleration, are not OS-supported items and by extension do not have any type of significant application support. you've provided a lot of examples of 3rd party hacks (yes, hacks) which implement various bits & pieces, but none of them are even close to widely supported, much less >>supported by AmigaDOS<<. memory protection simply isn't possible without a total rewrite of all applications, since different tasks in AmigaDOS routinely walked each other's & system library linked lists, also the device i/o structures were accessed by different processes, not to mention you could pass a pointer to some memory you allocated -- whoops, memory sharing violation again. also you can slam VM for being slow, but its a hell of a lot better than *NOT* having virtual memory. also if you think "the amiga was first with emulation" give me some of whatever you've been smoking, emulation has been used in the computer industry looooong before the Amiga was even an idea, even at Commodore they did their C-64 OS development on their mainframe using a 6502 emulator long before the hardware was finished. finally, you left out in your reply is that all the programs you cited are 3rd party programs, none of which (let me qualify this -- and you can correct me if I'm wrong but I don't believe I am) have anything close to general acceptance. When Commodore left town, there was nobody to set standards (like IFF). Basically the only thing you can *count* on someone having if they're serious about using their Amiga is some sort of processor accelerator.

twist: yes pc compatibility has finally been MOSTLY dropped. its a good thing, too (IMO). BTW I've been running Windows2000 ever since they released SP1, and haven't had 2nd thoughts about going back to Win98 or NT4, and I would suggest that you try Win2000 instead of XP. XP pro has some nice points too though, but I haven't upgraded because of MS's WPA, and make no plans to until they stop treating me like a child. since DirectX7, music has been directly supported by the OS, I would suggest (if you have broadband) downloading the DirectX7 or 8 SDK and checking out the docs on "DirectMusic".

multiview, yes, isn't that the application that lets you open any type of picture? Did any other program actually use datatypes? That must have been a post-Commodore addition to the OS.

i used to miss the shell. in fact i do occasionally bail out to the dos prompt to edit scripts and such (my MAME cabinets run under DOS so I still have to deal with that) but i realized that what i really missed from the shell was pattern-matching. that was remedied once i found out about the built-in "search" function of windows. alias is a great addition to a shell (as it saves keystrokes), but when you're working with the GUI or Explorer it's really not neccessary. heck you can pretty much emulate the "ASSIGN" command with the "Map Network Drive" tool in Explorer (or the NET USE command if you wanna use the command prompt) as long as you have any kind of networking set up. if you're really chafing on the limitations of windows, theres probably something you don't know about it. i can't think of any common CLI commands on the Amiga that I miss. heck, explorer integration even makes manipulating compressed archive files relatively easy.

finally, say what you may about processor speed, there's never enough and you always want more. come on, admit it.
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Old 08 January 2002, 01:21   #15
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Are Blue Dorito's better than Spicey ones ?

Is Terminator 2 better than Terminator 1 ?

Who cares !!!!!

I love 'em all, and I am here on a Amiga board (so I must love the Amiga), but I'm using a Pee See to access the internet and a Pee See keyboard to type this!!.......I guess I must like a Pee See too ?

OK - I never ever wanted to like Pee See's......but the Amiga died.....ST was a no no no (but that died too anyway).......Macintosh was too expensive at the time, and too under-supported (still is!).......everything else was just a games console.

What choice did a sane computer user have ?

Sticking around waiting for the Amiga to do something was like trying to find your way out of Dave Pleasance's beard !

I am sorry oh Amiga.....I truly am. Blame Commodore. You almost had it all, but blew it.
 
Old 08 January 2002, 01:36   #16
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I'm with you Jim, I have multiple machines in my house. Everything is connected via a LAN, or in the case of the Amiga's via null-modem serial cables.

Myself however, I would have liked to have had an Atari ST 520 or 1040. But that never happened and that's okay, my Amiga's kept me more then satisfied, along with the 6+ PC's I have around the place. Sorry but I have to have my D2X addiction satisfied from time to time
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Old 08 January 2002, 01:57   #17
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Lets again take a look at this point by point Shadowfire.

virtual memory= Memory is dirt cheap, who cares about VM, sure the Amiga has had hacks to support VM for years, its not part of the OS and I don't want it to be. Apps that need VM like ImageFX support it. Again lets please get off the VM kick 128MB of RAM is what $65?

memory protection= Sure it would be nice if the Amiga had this, MorphOS has it built in. Without it it forces Amiga coders to be very good at their craft. From an end-user standpoint if they run well behaved apps this is not a problem. Coders must work harder to learn their skills but I like this better than the lazy coders on the PC with their bloatware. Software like Executive on the Amiga lets you control the way apps behave. Even the creator of DirectX said PC coders are a lazy bunch of slobs and they don't optimize their code.

3D acceleration= It is built in Amiga OS 3.9, Warp3D.

Emulation= Sure emulation was going on in computer labs etc. before Amiga, but the Amiga made it well know. The first time many end-users were exposed to emulation was by seeing the Amiga emulate PC & Mac unless you want to count the hardware emulator add-on for the Coleco that let it run Atari 2600 games. When I worked for Commodore in the Phillippines I set up many Bridgecards 286 & 386. And an AMAX or two.

I will correct you because you are wrong about the acceptance about support for Cybergraphics, AHI etc. Many third party add-ons have wide acceptance. Developers have supported AHI, Cybergraphics, and to a lesser degree PowerPC for years. I believe Olif even updated the IFF standard in the new SDK for OS 3.9. Things like AHI, Cybergraphics, AVI & Quicktime playback, Winamp are included in the Amiga OS, have you never seen OS 3.9? Lots of cool stuff is now supported in the OS. It is modular though, you add what you want so the Amiga OS is not bloated. Workbench even supports AREXX now and has other cool new features.

DirectMusic= I know this is done by the ex-Blue Ribbion Soundworks guys, M$ knew value when they saw it. At least M$ gave us opensource Bars& Pipes Pro & SuperJam, I am sure the ex-Blue Ribbion guys have something to do with it. AHI is the Amigas DirectMusic.

Multiview= Lots of Amiga apps support datatypes not just Multiview. Photogentics, Personal Paint, TV Paint, Perfict Paint, Ami Writer etc. Plus there is Datacrome, it alows all Amiga apps to support datatypes.


MAME= Mame rules and it is coded by an Amiga oldtimer. We have versions for WarpOS and 68K that run fast on PPC. He did not code them but he still likes Amiga.

There is nothing wrong with having a PC if you have certain apps you like or need to run, I have one but I would never give up my Amiga's and go exclusively PC and Windows is not a real-time OS, that sucks.

Windows= It bores me, the KB Toys GUI facelift that M$ gave XP
is laughable, at least 98 looked like a business OS. They are trying to be a poor mans Mac OS X GUI wise. Mac OS X by the way has it's own issues such as sloooowness. I use Windows because of a few apps I like such as Quickbooks and Lightwave 7. Lightwave costs too much for my Sun Box but that is the version that is the faaastest. Because Sun Solaris OS supports up to 128 CPU's.

AmigaOS= I like the fact that it's tight well coded and small, you can add what you want and leave out the rest, and it boots in about 10 secs, cool. Also now the Amiga Video Toaster Flyer is open-source, the worlds first open source NLE.

Amiga's Shell= It's been updated in OS 3.9, has some cool new features you should check it out.

Windows XP= It breaks some apps and some hardware, I can't get Snappy to work right for example or the USB version of Dazzle is not supported. Play Inc. is out of business, it really helped them to go to PC instead of Amiga huh? (They used to be Digital Creations and Prime Image) No Gizmos98, Snappy upgrades will be forthcoming for XP, your just SOL.

LAN: My Amiga is on a LAN with my PC, Sun Box and SGI, it's nice to get the best of all worlds. I even boot BeOS on a rare blue moon but now they are dead as well. Well at least M$ can't put Linux out of business.

processor speed: If you are doing 3D rendering than the more the better, Sun Boxes have the most raw power when it comes to CPU speed because the OS can support so many.

The real quesion is how come my PC's OS is not real-time for basic functions, it goes 1200Mhz after all!
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Old 08 January 2002, 02:52   #18
Codetapper
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Quote:
memory protection simply isn't possible without a total rewrite of all applications, since different tasks in AmigaDOS routinely walked each other's & system library linked lists, also the device i/o structures were accessed by different processes, not to mention you could pass a pointer to some memory you allocated -- whoops, memory sharing violation again
Well presumably the system allocated that memory for you and if that's the case, the system would create those linked lists and mark them as readable by the process - hence no fault. It wouldn't require a complete rewrite for that change...

Anyway memory protection is fine for multi user systems I guess but I personally love being able to rip pictures and sound by scanning through the entire memory.

Quote:
you've provided a lot of examples of 3rd party hacks (yes, hacks) which implement various bits & pieces, but none of them are even close to widely supported
Please tell me the equivalent programs to XFD, XAD etc which can depack/decrunch almost every filetype or crunched file on the PC? As for hacks, Amiga programs are beautiful in their library elegance - open the shared libraries you need and away you go! Why is something like XFD/XAD considered a hack? If you looked at the source you would see how modular and elegant they are, I have been able to code 5 XFD Decrunchers for various exotic file formats very easily.

Let's compare modularity of say Eagleplayer on Amiga with Microsoft Media Player - how many times does the M$ app say "unknown format, attempting coded download" then shits itself. I honestly don't think they have a clue how to recognise a file on the PC, the vain hope that it is trying to download a codec which always fails (it has never worked for me) is laughable.


Quote:
you left out in your reply is that all the programs you cited are 3rd party programs, none of which (let me qualify this -- and you can correct me if I'm wrong but I don't believe I am) have anything close to general acceptance.
You need to get real and up to date with stuff like XFD, XAD and XVS. A freeware constantly updating system of virus recognition, decrunching and file archiving utils beats any PC equivalent. You can include a virus checker in about 5 lines of code, exactly what my Disk unpacking util Diskwiz does - open xvs, read bootblock from game, ask xvs library to virus check it for me - no Norton needed And the whole xvs library, 100k at most...

Quote:
heck you can pretty much emulate the "ASSIGN" command with the "Map Network Drive" tool in Explorer (or the NET USE command if you wanna use the command prompt) as long as you have any kind of networking set up.
Yeah right, what a load of crap - maximum of 26 devices named A: to Z:, take away C:, A: and D: you're left with 23. You can only map to certain things on PC's, often a Win 2000 machine can access a resource on the net that Win 98 can't but can the 2000 machine share that for Win98? Hell no...

My Amiga has unlimited assigns, I can do stuff like:

assign games: dh1:whdload/games defer
assign asm: work:assembler/

or for pc one character lovers/lamers:

assign d: pc:d ;network PC connection!

The assign command with defer doesn't clutter up my requesters until I use it. I don't have to remember what X: happens to be, I can use a sensible name like ASM: for assembler stuff. I'm not limited to 26. I can assign from the CLI or startup-sequence rather than having to go and map network drives (and that NET USE command is crap - don't pretend it does even 10% of the Amiga's assign command). The current game I'm working on I usually setup as WIP:, drop to cli, cd wip: done...

Quote:
multiview, yes, isn't that the application that lets you open any type of picture? Did any other program actually use datatypes? That must have been a post-Commodore addition to the OS.
You obviously haven't ever seen WB3. Multiview and datatypes were standard since 1992, even put into WB2.1 for older Amiga's without AGA.

As for programs that use datatypes, again you don't know what you're talking about. Check Aminet, tonnes of apps use them. I use PPShow still today to view packed files and weird types...

Quote:
i used to miss the shell. in fact i do occasionally bail out to the dos prompt to edit scripts and such (my MAME cabinets run under DOS so I still have to deal with that) but i realized that what i really missed from the shell was pattern-matching. that was remedied once i found out about the built-in "search" function of windows.
Have you heard of KingCon handler?

c:w (hit tab) -> c:whdload

Pattern matching has been in the Amiga O/S since 2.0 (1991ish?):

list games:m#?k
search games:warez.txt m#?k#?
copy df0:~(#?.info|devs|s)

Again MS-Dos is utter shit in comparison to Amiga - plus on Amiga any app can open a Shell window rather than having to boot in a Dos only mode. (Yes I know pc's can Alt-Enter but that is a naff equivalent)

You don't get the built in copy/paste support from the Dos command window like the amiga either, long winded way to be able to mark - no scrollback buffer (until win 2000) no filename completion (still)... jesus how did pc's ever take off when they are so damn lame?

Quote:
if you're really chafing on the limitations of windows, theres probably something you don't know about it. i can't think of any common CLI commands on the Amiga that I miss. heck, explorer integration even makes manipulating compressed archive files relatively easy.
If you saw Directory Opus (even v1) in around 1990/1991 (unknown when it came out but approx 10 years ago!) you would know the pc's explorer window is a joke - an unfunny one at that.

No common commands missing eh, you don't use CLI much I guess:

wait 3 ;wait 3 seconds
addbuffers dh0: 200
flushlibs ;clear libraries in ram no longer needed
ppshow gamesics/rips/#?.gif
delete ram:#?~(t|env|clipboards) all
assign df0: dismount

Windows/Command has about 25 commands (.exe), mostly crap. Amiga I would guess has about 50 so don't pretend you can do anything like what you can on the Amiga from the CLI. I type "mk" and it recompiles my HD versions of games, copies into relevant dirs, copies latest readme/instructions, creates HD version, install archive and source archive and then tests them and checks output of text file for no error to tell me at the end a list of archive testing. Try and do that on a PC - I think that takes about 30 lines on the Amiga, mostly the same as it builds 3 archives

Quote:
in summary, there's a huge amount of code which causes all the much ballyhooed "bloat", but its all this code which makes Windows programs interoperate so well, which is functionality that the Amiga never saw, even with ARexx (although ARexx was a great stab at it).
Yes I love the way PC's crash all the time, the clipboard loses data just by switching to a certain application and back to the one which you copied the data in, the fact that if the keyboard is unplugged when Windows starts then you have no mouse, the 30 mins for a basic (ie. useless) windows install vs about 5 mins on the Amiga...

Sorry but if you think bloatware gives a great O/S, would you rather debug a 1000 line program or a 1 million line one? And which do you think will be more stable?

How many people would start up retro PC sites if the PC died today? Not many I think, they would move on and realise what a pile of shit the PC is. Yet look at the number of Amiga sites for the number of users, incredibly high I would say.

If I want to play an old game like Double Dragon 2 on the Amiga, just fire up WHDLoad and I can play it. I'd like the equivalent of that on the PC, I remember a friend with 16Mb of Ram was told "sorry you need 1Mb of ram to play formula one grand prix" on the pc. Classic... Thank god MAME came out, otherwise I wouldn't have much reason to use PC's at home!

PC's have a few good features but overall they are buggy, bloatware, prone to crash, inconsistent and the O/S is nothing other than thousands of hacks sitting on top of each other disguising a clumsy old O/S.

I love the way PC programs decide that if you started them from one place that you always want to save in My Documents folder on C:, or the desktop. Even Photoshop if you choose save as changes to the bloody desktop by default, how lame is that? And the PC's file requester, what a joke! Arp/Reqtools requesters are far better, tell you useful information (pc's always show kb, amiga's being un-bloatware show byte sizes of files!) and you can type WIP: in a file requester and hit enter to change to that. On the PC you have to type d:\amiga\assembler\ etc to get to that path or create a stupid shortcut (ugly hack again).

Also one great Amiga feature you failed to mention - a temporary space for storing files which you don't keep but like to use while the Amiga is powered on - the RAM disk... Can't live without it on Amiga
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Old 08 January 2002, 07:26   #19
Pyromania
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Quote:
Originally posted by Codetapper
Also one great Amiga feature you failed to mention - a temporary space for storing files which you don't keep but like to use while the Amiga is powered on - the RAM disk... Can't live without it on Amiga
Don't forget RAD: What a cool RAM disk (It lives even after a reboot) and you can boot the OS from it in about 2 secs. Never seen something like RAD: on Winblows.
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Old 08 January 2002, 08:42   #20
Twistin'Ghost
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I really don't think I can say much better what has already been so said so beautifully already. But I do have some...erm, inconsistencies...

Quote:
Originally posted by Shadowfire
finally, you left out in your reply is that all the programs you cited are 3rd party programs, none of which (let me qualify this -- and you can correct me if I'm wrong but I don't believe I am) have anything close to general acceptance. When Commodore left town, there was nobody to set standards (like IFF).
Oh dear... Many references to OS tools were in his response, as well as mine. Only the 3rd party apps were given links (so you could reference them, if neccesary), so it may have sidetracked you. The various multimedia files that are supported, which we both brought up, are supported by the OS, to name but one example. Your words about general acceptance - well, being as you are no longer a real Amiga user, I don't imagine you have anything to offer here but conjecture. On the PC, general acceptance means it comes from Microsoft or from a select handful or mammoth, global corporations. That's what PC users look for when deciding on an app to use, trust, accept. The Amiga user looks at the reliability, and thus, even the small guy can achieve general acceptance. Even on the PC, though, the zip command did not gain general acceptance by being a part of the OS. Nor did the jpeg/mpeg formats. The Amiga doesn't need Commodore around to set its standards for it. All they did was market (?) and sell another team's dream machine and continued further development of the OS (using a dream team of rebel programmers). You seem too caught up in labelling what is required to gain acceptance.

Quote:
twist: yes pc compatibility has finally been MOSTLY dropped. its a good thing, too (IMO).
So now you are contradicting your original point about PC compatibility. You should pick one side and stick with it.

Quote:
BTW I've been running Windows2000 ever since they released SP1, and haven't had 2nd thoughts about going back to Win98 or NT4, and I would suggest that you try Win2000 instead of XP.
XP I have only looked/laughed at from an aisle at Best Buy, whilst W2k I use every day at work. What's up with that cryptic update of the Find command?!? There's probably some things that make it work better on our networks at work, but I don't see any more reliability or stability in any of the apps I use (mostly gfx & dtp apps).

Quote:
XP pro has some nice points too though, but I haven't upgraded because of MS's WPA, and make no plans to until they stop treating me like a child.
I wouldn't hold my breath...

Quote:
since DirectX7, music has been directly supported by the OS, I would suggest (if you have broadband) downloading the DirectX7 or 8 SDK and checking out the docs on "DirectMusic".
But think about what you are saying here...the DirectX api was designed to enhance gaming, basically. It has expanded beyond that, as some other apps I use take advantage of this api (like Cool Edit Pro, among others), but at the end of the day, it still means all of this has to funnel through the OS. That might not be such a bad thing on a streamlined OS like AmigaDOS, but considering all of the existing overhead of Windows, it certainly has drawbacks, considering the stability of some of the DirectX plug-ins I have used. Some, on the other hand, are good. BTW: one can only download DirectX 8, as all previous versions are no longer offered and DX8 is uninstallable.

You brag about M$ offering DirectMusic, but the reality is that it's a replacement for a terrible previous MIDI api. I tend to not like Microsoft products. They do poor usenet news reading, I don't like Media Player, their email and IE tend to lean in the direction of little control and security (XP being no exception), and try installing any single component of Office (it claims to let you, but doesn't...plus their Office uninstaller doesn't expunge registry entries properly, which affects other programs' functionality, etc.) So why should I suddenly think that their built-in music software is going to eclipse what I already use? It's certainly not gonna mess with Cakewalk. So is it for the casual user? Not with over 100 pages of documentation. Maybe web designers or game programmers will use it for their products, so why would this bloat be needed as part of the operating system? What does this have to do with an operating system. Nothing. It's just MS once again trying to own the music market the way they want to own the CD burning, virus checker, etc. markets. It's a case of "use the MS brand and stop buying X brand". There's not many program types MS have not tried to squash yet. I guess in (your) perfect world, every app in the world would have Microsoft's logo on it. Then they can go after television, films and the music industry.
Quote:
multiview, yes, isn't that the application that lets you open any type of picture? Did any other program actually use datatypes? That must have been a post-Commodore addition to the OS.
Multiview is not a picture viewer. It handles most any format which a datatype exists for. It's was the replacement for AmigaGuide, which was doing hypertext before the PC had any such tool in its OS! So no, it was not post-CBM. And multiview is capable of handling pictures, audio files, multimedia, documents (doc, eps, pdf, etc)...why would you try to assess a product you have no clue about?

Quote:
finally, say what you may about processor speed, there's never enough and you always want more. come on, admit it.
You seem to be confusing want and need. Sure, we all want more power, always. But to have hundreds of megs of ram just for the OS itself is absurd. To have to use raw processor power just to get you past sluggish architecture and a fake OS running on a hidden DOS is hardly a case of a user craving more power. A machine requiring enough power, more like.

Last edited by Twistin'Ghost; 08 January 2002 at 08:50.
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