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View Poll Results: Scanlines or NO scanlines?
Yes, I prefer scanlines. 65 26.86%
No, I don't like scanlines. 156 64.46%
I don't care which one. Any would do fine for me. 21 8.68%
Voters: 242. You may not vote on this poll

 
 
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Old 12 November 2009, 20:13   #361
Retro-Nerd
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And if you use a LCD for WinUAE it's probably pointless to talk about scanlines. The whole screen is already interpolated if you don't use the LCD native resolution.
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Old 12 November 2009, 20:15   #362
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Photon View Post
You make very nice logos, but that's not "WinUAE output". The point is that WinUAE doubles pixels vertically. Same for scandoublers, or the usual 320x240 PC DOS graphics in the lowest VGA can go - 640x480.
VGA can go as low as 320x200 (and even my 21" still supports it without tweaking). WinUAE only 'doubles pixels' when you tell it to do so. The point is if adding scanlines improves the picture quality. Some like the 'pixeled' look, others the 'half blanked' one. Maybe I should add more winks to my posts here, so there you go :
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Old 13 November 2009, 01:55   #363
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Originally Posted by DemonHellraiser View Post
Sorry Photon, I'm just being a usual pain in the butt and thanks for the compliment

I've done 32 colour logo's for PMC's demo he's creating, resolution max 320x256 and I must agree, it's bloody hard work trying to make something look as good as the original (This I've already seen in WinUEA). That's why I wont knock anybody regarding scanlines, lets just say, they're not for me especially in WinUAE, but then again, I've never been able to tweak WinUAE to give an output that works for me
I think you didn't get what I was getting at (or maybe I don't make any sense at all???) I didn't mean to make a 320x256 graphic look as good as in Photoshop at 100% zoom, I meant: take that graphic, show it in DPaint. OK. Forget about any original version. Take that DPaint graphic and show it in WinUAE in any way that makes it look best. Not so much to do with scanlines, if someone adds a filter to pour the pixels in a blender and pour them out into the WinUAE window again, and it looks better, I'm using it!

Ofc the familiar demo/game gfx were all drawn on real Amigas and 14" CRTs, and that means getting closer to that on a PC monitor will get closer to "what the artist saw" and "how it was intended to look". Yours was not (?), so I've no idea if it will look better with any mode or filter hooplah in WinUAE, but the 'good old games' will.

Not to go on debating, to each his own, just clarifying some statements.

For example the one by TCD that 320x200 is available in VGA. Well, on LCDs it becomes blurry crap (coughexcuse me) and on CRTs it becomes 640x400. Press the CRT menu button and you'll see that. Ie. hardware pixel doubling.

And certainly, you can select doubling off in WinUAE, however if you want the F12 interface be usable you can't really go below 720x576 due to the window size. You can try to use it in 320x200 if you really want, what you'll get is a completely unusable interface, and hardware doubled pixels as per above.
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Old 13 November 2009, 02:00   #364
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Originally Posted by Photon View Post
And certainly, you can select doubling off in WinUAE, however if you want the F12 interface be usable you can't really go below 720x576 due to the window size. You can try to use it in 320x200 if you really want, what you'll get is a completely unusable interface, and hardware doubled pixels as per above.
Well, the F12 interface works fine on 640x480 and you get an 'auto scroll' mode on 320x200, so that's not really a problem. Sorry Photon, but you should come up with better examples why WinUAE can produce a 'non doubled' resolution
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Old 13 November 2009, 02:24   #365
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Not all gfx cards have autoscroll, but I concede it's "not useless" in that mode.

Select 320x200 or 240 mode and draw some differently colored lines in MSpaint or whatever, and if you look closely each pixel has a horizontal split in it. That signifies that the "320x200" pixel is actually 2x2 "640x400" pixels.

This is the same effect as hires+double in WinUAE @ 640x400, but in hardware.

You can also press the OSD menu button on the CRT. If it shows the same horizontal frequency for both "320x200" and 640x400 mode, it is the same mode. One has doubled pixels in it. Agree?
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Old 13 November 2009, 02:31   #366
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Photon View Post
Not all gfx cards have autoscroll, but I concede it's "not useless" in that mode.
IIRC it's a WinUAE feature, but tbh I'm too lazy to look it up now.
About 320x200 and hardware scaling : That's surely a monitor and/or graphic card issue then, no? Agree?
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Old 13 November 2009, 03:40   #367
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TCD: No, all VGA monitors display 320x240 doubled in 640x480 mode, see instructions above if you doubt my veracity. Autoscroll is the result of a minimum supported desktop area not fitting in the selected resolution, as supported by the OS.

I feel this is diverting from a poll of opinions into me trying to explain how monitors work to people who don't want to find out. Sort of.

I think there was never any doubt that voters' opinions should be respected, everyone chooses what looks best to them?

----------
Can we all agree that if you take a HOL screenshot, double it without filters (since that's what happens in 320x240 in hardware on a monitor), or double it without filters in WinUAE, it looks blocky on a PC screen? Unless (some of) them were taken at 640x512 and shrunk in Photoshop, which smooths them.

I think we can all agree that if you use some other display method such as xbox emu to LCD TV, each pixel line has nothing to do with a pixel line of the LCD resolution since the whole frame is scaled, and scanlines don't apply?

So. Emulator output on PC screen *ONLY*: scanlines or blocky pixels? (Or tiny part of screen used for nonscaled output). Pick what looks best to you!

Me, I don't mind tweaking settings to get closer to what I think is the ideal, scanlines or no scanlines. I hope the facts and pictures I added has some use to those who don't mind either.
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Old 13 November 2009, 03:51   #368
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Photon View Post
Me, I don't mind tweaking settings to get closer to what I think is the ideal, scanlines or no scanlines. I hope the facts and pictures I added has some use to those who don't mind either.
Indeed, and since you chickened out on our 4 :1 conversation, I hope you see that the pixeled choice isn't an uncommon one and also not unpreferrred by those who own a real Amiga to decide which looks best on any display
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Old 13 November 2009, 03:54   #369
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I still don't get your "blocky pixel" comment.

A square represented by 1, 4, 16 pixels, is still a square.

If you have a 20" LCD monitor whose native resolution is 320x256 and display a screenshot, taken from HOL (at 320x256) on it.

Then double that screenshot to 640x512, then display it on a 20" LCD monitor whose native resolution is 640x512.

Please explain to me Photon, what do you think the difference will be?
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Old 13 November 2009, 04:49   #370
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheCyberDruid View Post
Indeed, and since you chickened out on our 4 :1 conversation, I hope you see that the pixeled choice isn't an uncommon one and also not unpreferrred by those who own a real Amiga to decide which looks best on any display
I guess most of them can't remember how WinUAE looks on CRT monitors, because they use LCD monitors for years. It looks awfully blocky in doubled pixels, there is really no discussion about it. Well, it's indeed prefered by a lot of user as it seems.

btw: An LCD display has no lowres native resolution, it interpolates the complete image and it looks more blurred then pixelated. No need to disimprove the crappy output with filters.
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Old 13 November 2009, 04:50   #371
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Argh, I'll soon run out of oomph

I thought I made it ultra clear that this thread is/should stay on the topic of a poll of opinions? And that I like Scanlines but respect those who like Doubled?

"Pixels aren't doubled." I've explained how it's impossible to escape this without a WinUAE window the size of a HOL screenshot. Don't take my word for it, if you think I make shit up just check it.

On the topic of making shit up, why invent imaginary VGA LCDs with pixel elements the size of shirt buttons? They don't exist. If they did, ofc square shirt buttons would look square.

Why involve LCD TVs if you don't know how 5 different resolutions from 4 different consoles and a DVD/Bluray player magically fill the screen? It's scaled and filtered in the TV. Does the filter in your LCD TV have a checkbox that says "scanlines"? No? Then wth does it have to do with the word in the topic?

PC LCDs and CRTs have no native 320x256 or similar resolutions. The lowest you can go doubles up the pixels in hardware.

So. These two monitor types double the pixels. That makes them look square/pixeled. On an Amiga monitor, this doesn't happen, thus it doesn't look blocky. Shit, even with a 19" monitor it doesn't!

Only on LCD in native resolution are pixels perfectly square. On Amiga or PC CRTs, pixels are pillow-shaped with a little glow around them. They are rounder and melt together nicely. But on the VGA CRT, they are doubled up and become a square of 4 dots. Enable scanlines and they look less square (since the two dots on the same line melt together nicely), with the penalty of a more washed-out impression.

This is what is relevant to scanlines and the reason for its existence at all in WinUAE. "On PC, it doesn't look as it does on a real Amiga connected to an RGB CRT." If you say you PREFER blocky pixels, that's fine with me. If you say they're NOT blocky you're sitting 40 feet from the PC LCD

You can also use fullscreen bilinear with or without scanlines, if you like that. Or PAL filter or...



Some people could say I have a tendency to overanalyse and atomize to the point where I might make someone angry. It's only to find a common base of facts to agree on, to go from, and not to tell someone easy basic facts that they ofc already know.

Meh. Anyway.

I jumped in and tested Maren's squeezed mode and took some pictures of "how good scanlines can look". Then apparently I had to explain why I like scanlines. I hope I did.

Knowing more about expected results on 3 monitor types won't make someone like that result if they don't. And poll votes won't make anyone like something they don't either.


But for the sweet son of god christ jesus on Es and GHB (am I damned to hell yet?) , don't say doubled pixels aren't blocky on VGA screens!!
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Old 13 November 2009, 10:49   #372
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Alright, I think I got it now. I'll buy a CRT and use scanlines, because with my current setup I only get unbearable blocky pixels. Thanks guys
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Old 13 November 2009, 12:56   #373
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Why? Your LCD gives you a perfect output. Enjoy it.

Last edited by Retro-Nerd; 13 November 2009 at 13:03.
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Old 13 November 2009, 13:02   #374
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Originally Posted by Retro-Nerd View Post
Enjoy it.
Sure, I will /me cuddles his blocky pixels
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Old 13 November 2009, 13:19   #375
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/me also cuddles his square pixels.

I love my squares.
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Old 13 November 2009, 16:31   #376
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Iv e got a CRT monitor. In WinUAE I always select "doubled" to get the same blocky GFX on the screen like my A1200 with CRT and SD/FliFi produces Thats REAL emulation.

I am not kidding.
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Old 13 November 2009, 17:25   #377
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Uh...

If you like scanlines, you're insane or have really messed up eyes. Scanlines are there to emulate the 'look and feel' of yesteryear's monitors today on modern ones. But the problem is - it does it too well. I use my miggy on an old commodore monitor and it does NOT look like what you see in UAE scanlined. Actually it looks like the non-scanlined pic.

Scanlines do NOT make things look like they did 'back in the day' and if you think so you're huffing glue. So...

NO SCANLINES :P
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Old 13 November 2009, 17:30   #378
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And i think you never saw a RGB monitor/TV+RGB cable Amiga output. Old Commodore monitor, with Composite Video?
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Old 13 November 2009, 17:32   #379
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I love my LCD without interlace artifacts, scanlines and with beatiful square, blocky and detailed pixels.

Last edited by AmigaFriend; 13 November 2009 at 19:13.
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Old 13 November 2009, 19:34   #380
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Quote:
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Only on LCD in native resolution are pixels perfectly square
Sorry but that's because you don't know CRT's work
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