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Old 24 March 2007, 23:02   #21
Magno Boots
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One reson that the C64dtv didn't sell well was because nearly all the games it contained were rubbish.
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Old 24 March 2007, 23:06   #22
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Aah, the Amiga laptop.. The holy grail of the community.

We need a very very rich philanthropist who'll basically give away the product and take all the R&D costs at a personal loss, otherwise no-one would be able to afford one. :-D
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Old 25 March 2007, 11:39   #23
DrBong
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alexh
Jens cannot patent anything. All patents were owned by Amiga Inc. but for OCS they will have expired (in about 2004/2005).
AFAIK Amiga Inc. own nothing......they just licensed all Amiga IP from Gateway. Therefore Gateway still own the Amiga patents (and they may be swallowed up by ACER soon).

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If the C64 DTV was such a success why isnt it still onsale?

Why did Jeri the author hardly make any money at all?
It's still on sale here in Australia. Dunno about elsewhere. Jeri hardly made any money on the DTV? That's not what Jens intimated to me in email a few months back when he spoke about the big loss he took on Jeri's C-One board. He said she didn't finish the C-One board properly (i.e. iron out all the bugs I think) coz there was a lot more money to be made with the DTV, which she concentrated her attention on instead. Got anything from the horse's mouth or another reputable source saying she didn't make any real money out of the DTV?

Last edited by DrBong; 25 March 2007 at 11:52.
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Old 25 March 2007, 13:30   #24
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Originally Posted by DrBong
AFAIK Amiga Inc. own nothing......they just licensed all Amiga IP from Gateway. Therefore Gateway still own the Amiga patents (and they may be swallowed up by ACER soon).
Interesting. Ok, so maybe it's Gateway who own the IP patents. But Amiga Inc. owns the name Amiga and all the trademarks and Logo's which is more important for an OCS system (where any hardware patent will have already expired).

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Jeri hardly made any money on the DTV?
It depends what you mean. She certainly claims not to have made a cut of the profits.

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That's not what Jens intimated to me in email a few months back when he spoke about the big loss he took on Jeri's C-One board.
I've heard this one before. The DTV was certainly a better bet for revenue than the C-One. The FPGA in the C-One was just too small and the over-complex PCB design made the board too expensive. Plus the opportunity to make an ASIC must have been too much to pass up.

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Got anything from the horse's mouth or another reputable source saying she didn't make any real money out of the DTV?
Jeri said in an interview that that she didnt make "millions" or anything close to that. Jeri said she was paid a nominal salary and posted that its success (in terms of numbers of sales) came as a surprise to her. I'll google and see if I can find it. I think in the same interview / board post there was some talk about why there were going to be no C64 core updates for the C-one (or any other FPGA device) for X-Years and it was part of her contract.
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Old 25 March 2007, 20:51   #25
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Gateway bought Amiga for a lousy mouse patent. They still own the patents.
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Old 01 April 2007, 07:46   #26
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The original designs to the AGA chips were lost long ago; an AGA Clone-A would legally be no different from an emulator. I honestly don't see how it would infringe on any of the patents when the original chips and the cloned chips would invariably turn out to be so vastly different. Even if it did, there is no financially logical reason for legal action.

Hopefully the Clone-A will make it's commercial debut with AGA, because it will cost quite a bit no matter what chipset it has (I'm guessing around $300). Given how eBay is these days, that would be more than price-competitive with real AGA machines. If it had the ability to drop in more RAM (especially more CHIP RAM) than a real machine and could use a wide variety of salvaged 68K CPUs (I'm thinking LC040s scavenged from Performa Macs here), then it would sell quite well.

Last edited by Computolio; 02 April 2007 at 07:32.
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Old 01 April 2007, 18:06   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jope
We need a very very rich philanthropist who'll basically give away the product and take all the R&D costs at a personal loss, otherwise no-one would be able to afford one. :-D

Bill Gates said he would be interested.


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Old 02 April 2007, 07:22   #28
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Another thing: It occurs to me that their cloned Agnus might wind up being cheaper than a real one, and has 2MB RAM. If they can get the price of just that one chip below the $125 or so that MegaChips go for on eBay right now, then they have a pretty viable product right there.
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Old 02 April 2007, 11:52   #29
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For how many?? 10x-20x (if that). That isnt a viable product. I doubt they would even cover their production costs
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Old 02 April 2007, 12:02   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Computolio
The original designs to the AGA chips were lost long ago
Pure speculation.

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an AGA Clone-A would legally be no different from an emulator
Yes it would. It would be sold.

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I honestly don't see how it would infringe on any of the patents when the original chips and the cloned chips would invariably turn out to be so vastly different.
Tell that to PowerComputing that had a nice little "Cloned-PPC-Mac" buisness until about 2002 when Apple withdrew their license and they had to stop. If what you are saying is true they could have just continued. I assume patents will be at medium to high level so as to cover the widest possible area (I know that is how most are written including ours) and would still cover any cloned architecture.

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Even if it did, there is no financially logical reason for legal action.
If Amiga Inc. (or whoever) dont get their cut I am sure they will.
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Old 03 April 2007, 03:11   #31
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There will be no spare chips for existing Amigas. You would need special FPGAs with 5v tolerance and such a chips would cost over 100 Euros. The plans are for making a cheap mass product like an Amiga Joystick with some Games and a small nano-itx board (for around 200 Euros). The products will all have a one chip solution but without Zorro/Clockport/CPU-Slot for existing hardware.

About the chip designs...the patents of the original chips are already gone and CloneA acts like an emulator in hardware so there is no need for license. Everything is done by reverse engineering. The only problem would be the software including the kickrom but there seems to be a solution already for the kickrom. There are also talks to game companies.
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Old 03 April 2007, 05:05   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Computolio
Another thing: It occurs to me that their cloned Agnus might wind up being cheaper than a real one, and has 2MB RAM.
This makes me wonder? Does it have chip ram? Fast? Slow? Most Amigas had 500 chip plus 500 slow ram... many games expected no only slow ram but at certain adress - hence problems with A1200 with 2mb Chip. Would this not be a problem with many games?

Well, now that i think of it they're probably emulating the memory space just like WinUAE...

I'm going to hit send anyway
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Old 03 April 2007, 09:21   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DJBase
CloneA acts like an emulator in hardware so there is no need for license.
Surely that is a fallacy, made up by people who want it to be true? Clones of other hardware, such as processors, have been attacked left right and centre by the original manufacturers. Most ARM and MIPS clones have been removed from websites etc.

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The only problem would be the software including the kickrom but there seems to be a solution already for the kickrom.
Interesting, not heard that. The main problem is surely the name "Amiga" and any symbols such as the tick or boing?

Last edited by alexh; 03 April 2007 at 09:32.
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Old 03 April 2007, 12:02   #34
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alexh,
nintendo is one of worst companies regarding their licenses and product, and they couldn't do much about those twin things that now sells on eBay?!
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Old 03 April 2007, 12:08   #35
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These were the words from Mr. Schoenfeld, I was at the presentation and we cleared all these questions.

The amiga custom chips are no longer protectet by patents. You can not refresh old patents. After 20 years they are gone. Also if there were any other problems there would be no UAE.
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Old 03 April 2007, 12:19   #36
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Great stuff DJbase, any other interesting news from the presentation?
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Old 03 April 2007, 13:04   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DJBase
These were the words from Mr. Schoenfeld, I was at the presentation and we cleared all these questions.
Cool.

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The amiga custom chips are no longer protected by patents.
The original chips (1985-2005) yes. AGA (1992-2012) no.

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You can not refresh old patents. After 20 years they are gone.
True, but there is something else called COPYRIGHT. It lasts for 70 years in Germany and similar amounts of time in other countries. Amiga published a book called the Hardware Reference Manual. The last one was in about 1991.



All the structures and registers etc. described in the book will be covered by copyright and should Amiga Inc. (or whoever) want their cut of Clone-A I am sure they could get it.

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Also if there were any other problems there would be no UAE.
UAE is not particularly commercial. They get some revenue from Cloanto.

Last edited by alexh; 03 April 2007 at 13:09.
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Old 03 April 2007, 13:11   #38
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I would not worry to much, AMiga Inc doesnt look like the company with the most money.. Besides they must have thought about this before starting the project.
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Old 04 April 2007, 03:03   #39
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update:
http://ami.ga/news/news124_e.htm
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Old 04 April 2007, 03:16   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DJBase
The amiga custom chips are no longer protected by patents. You can not refresh old patents. After 20 years they are gone. Also if there were any other problems there would be no UAE.
UAE falls under reverse engineering for educational and personal research in software, there are specific laws, and jurisprudence, that stood them up. It's also non-profitable and open-source with no signs of claiming to clone or reproduce TM or CRs.

A good explanation would be, we contacted Amiga Inc. or Gateway - don't know exactly who owns Chipset IP - and they were ok with it. If they're going to test the law, then they might have what they want, the law tested in court. The real apprehensive part about this is the Amiga in Joystick \ profitable project... sounds highly problematic, where there's money, there's lawyers.

I'm not going be a cynic and claim decent drivers for people who already payed for one of his products should be being done instead of this dubious adventures - heck, what the hey, I'll just say it anyway

That's another of the main differences, in no way was WinUAE a way to make a product or money, but a research and preservation project. This is clearly starting not to look like one, particularly when it's claimed Amiga Inc. or Gateway no longer own their IP... we'll see.
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