English Amiga Board Amiga Lore


Go Back   English Amiga Board > Support > support.Apps

 
 
Thread Tools
Old 28 October 2006, 23:26   #21
jotd
Cat freak
jotd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: FRANCE
Age: 46
Posts: 1,889
Quote:
Originally Posted by Galahad/FLT
Yup, I had one, gave it to Wepl
Ok, and what about high-density drives that can write longer tracks that double-density drives?
I'm sure they cannot write copylock tracks though since they're not actually longtracks.
jotd is offline  
AdSense AdSense  
Old 29 October 2006, 00:03   #22
Galahad/FLT
Going nowhere

Galahad/FLT's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 44
Posts: 6,524
Quote:
Originally Posted by jotd
Ok, and what about high-density drives that can write longer tracks that double-density drives?
I'm sure they cannot write copylock tracks though since they're not actually longtracks.
No idea if Sybil could copy Copylock tracks, I doubt it as Longtrack and Copylock tracks are different in their construction.

Most crackers didn't ever worry about Copylock because they simply decoded it or the copylock wasn't very well implemented.
Galahad/FLT is online now  
Old 29 October 2006, 02:10   #23
girv
Reticulator of Splines
girv's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Northern Ireland
Posts: 920
Send a message via ICQ to girv Send a message via AIM to girv Send a message via MSN to girv Send a message via Yahoo to girv
I've sucessfully copied a number of Copylock tracks using Synchro Express 3 on an A500 and HD (1.44Mb) disks. I wasn't using a HD floppy drive, but the copies never worked if I used DD disks. Maybe that was down to the el cheapo DD disks I had though
girv is offline  
Old 29 October 2006, 10:19   #24
musashi5150
move.w #$4489,$dff07e
musashi5150's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Norfolk, UK
Age: 36
Posts: 2,284
I'll confirm that girv. Back in the day I copied Lost Patrol (RNC) onto HD disks with Cyclone - DD disks never worked, but HD did the job

It said in the manual that HD disks are recommended for Cyclone copies... I guess they are just higher quality.
musashi5150 is offline  
Old 29 October 2006, 21:18   #25
andreas
Zone Friend
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Germany
Age: 43
Posts: 5,858
Send a message via ICQ to andreas Send a message via AIM to andreas
But those would definitely not work on my A1000 then.

My A1000 drive definitely needs DD disks - with a HD disk, I have to place an adhesive sticker on the square hole on the upper left (disk viewed w/shutter on the bottom). Same with my Panasonic drive of my - now dead - A500.
andreas is offline  
Old 30 October 2006, 02:03   #26
Galahad/FLT
Going nowhere

Galahad/FLT's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 44
Posts: 6,524
An A1ooo should completely ignore the HD hole and not treat the disk any differently.
Galahad/FLT is online now  
Old 30 October 2006, 17:27   #27
boing_1000
A1000 Addict
boing_1000's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Eastern USA
Age: 30
Posts: 560
Quote:
Originally Posted by Galahad/FLT
An A1ooo should completely ignore the HD hole and not treat the disk any differently.
I've tried formatting a Workbench disk on an HD floppy and it acted as if it was working then there was an error on like the last track or something.
boing_1000 is offline  
Old 01 November 2006, 00:16   #28
alewis
Monochrome and 8 bit

 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Underbarrow, Gods Country
Age: 51
Posts: 587
Thats due to the properties of an HD disk, and the coil strength of a DD drive.


Regarding finding a hardware copier, peruse Aminet hardhacks, iirc there is a diagram for making your own "Cyclone" hardware.

For buying an original hardware copier, well, simply put the internal version of SuperCard Ami II was the creme de la creme of the bunch. It was aimed at the B2000, as it connected to one of the CIA chips as well as the internal drives. Whether it will work in an A3/4k I dont know. I still have the hardware, but the CIAs in the A4K are surface mounted... Anyway, SCA II blew Cyclone out of the water in terms of what it could copy, i.e. titles that Cyclone couldnt cope with. However, depending on what was being copied it could take some time to do so (this was the exception rather than the norm, and usually the two took a comparable amount of time to copy a given disk). Another advantage was that Cyclone could only copy 80 (or 81) tracks, SCA could copy up to 82 (0r 83?) I cant recall anything off hand that needed that many, but track 80 protection was often found.

For small box Amigas, the choice is between Cyclone and SupercardAmi. My preference would be Cyclone. It's not as effective as an internal SCA, but probably sold in greater numbers than all versions of SCA together, simply as it was aimed at the mass market. Its not bad all told.

Apex, MAC, and a couple of others were blatant rip offs of SCA or Cyclone. I wouldnt bother.

Synchro Express was different, and as I recall not as effective as Cyclone, and hence nowhere near as capable as SCA II.

Cyclone shipped with X-Copy, (which in turn originally shipped with the CV Parameter Copier).

SCA originally shipped with the excellent NIB (or NIB v2), a fantastic software copier which could deprotect some titles. Just some history.

Good copiers? Well, Project D and Marauder II were circla 1986-88, so dont expect much! They used "parameters" to copy and/or deprotect some titles, but copy protection in those days wasn't that advanced, nor were disk copiers, and - Marauder especially - relied on glitxy copper effects to 'look good'. There was a third copier vieing for your buck, but the titles escapes me.

Eurpean copiers of the time included DeepCopy by gefland & Thubeauville (who wrote a few copiers), and Fast Lightning.

X-Copy took a while to take off, but certainly in the UK by 1991 had become the copier to have. Simple interface, no parameters to confuse the user with, and a few basic copy modes; DOSCopy (straight DOS level disk copy), DOSCopy+ (same as before, but corrected read erros), and Nibble. Index syncing was an option on all. bear in mind I haven't seen X-Copy in at least 10 years if I have forgotten something!

Lockpick was a later parameter copier, but with the same basic idea of using parameter files to copy/deprotect a given title.

Parameter copiers suffered one major flaw: the parameters were for a given version (or issue) of a title. Often one saw parameters for <game title>v1 and <game title>v1.2 Indeed, given most of the paramter copiers originated in the US, it wasn't unknown for them not to work on European versions of the game.

SCA II v4 used parameters, but these were slightly different. Many games could be backed up by nibbling an entire disk in normal nibble mode, and then nibbling a specific track(s) using index sync or some other fancy footwork. This took two (or more) copy runs. SCA parameters simply automated this process in one run, switching the copy mode during the process. But the same flaw was inherent - the parameters were version/release specific.

Frankly, I found Nib and Maverick to be better software nibble copiers, but they were aimed at the US market and not really marketed over here. And X-Copy did have the cleaner, more appealing/less confusing interface. And there wasn't that much that X-Copy nibbler couldnt do anyway. Frankly, if X-Copy software nibble couldnt do it, then one might as well jump straight to a hardware copy rather than try a better software copier. But it was always a nice comfy feeling having a goodly few copiers in the toolbox, as it were.

I might - *might* - have a spare cyclone copier somewhere, and possibly even the schematics for a couple of hardware copiers. These too, evolved over the years, istr one that plugged into the parallel port as well as the external drive port (early Synchro Express springs to mind as doing this), another that plugged into the video port (!).

Anyway, I know Arkanoid can be backed up. Wish I handn't lost the 2000 or so Amiga disks I had...
alewis is offline  
Old 01 November 2006, 12:50   #29
musashi5150
move.w #$4489,$dff07e
musashi5150's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Norfolk, UK
Age: 36
Posts: 2,284
Thanks for the info alewis, an interesting read.
musashi5150 is offline  
Old 01 November 2006, 15:36   #30
alewis
Monochrome and 8 bit

 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Underbarrow, Gods Country
Age: 51
Posts: 587
Sorry if a bit all over the place. Disk copying was close to my heart in those days, as I personally felt that one should be able to backup software that one had spent upwards of 25 on. Whats more, using a backup disk rather than original media was an accepted and encouraged commercial practice, so what is good for industry is good for the home user.

I wrote a few articles and reviewed some of the software/hardware copiers at the time - i recall seeing a couple of "reviews" in mags, and they were little more than re-writes of the press-releases. ISTR one mag head-to-heading two copiers, to copy a non-protected DOS disk. WTF??? earned me a few quid at the time, for doing something I enjoyed.

Even ICPUG published two articles of mine covering SCA, and they were notoriously anti-priacy, and anything that encroached on it, but felt that the subject matter, and article itself, deserved publishing. Obviously didnt get paid for them, but was very satisfying seeing them in print.
alewis is offline  
Old 14 November 2006, 03:52   #31
HCF
Zone Friend
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: here
Age: 47
Posts: 97
Actually, ProjectD has been updated several times, even offered a subscription service if memory is correct. Personally, I prefer the look of the older ProjectD but that is just me. Was Super Kit or Hercules Copy the copier you cannot remember the name of?

DeepCopy is actually an option of Amiga Copy and was found on the book disk of Amiga Disk Drives Inside And Out (Abacus/Data Becker).

Either way, checked the RawCopy parameter list today and Arkanoid is on the list so maybe worth a try instead of looking for a hardware copier first?!
HCF is offline  
Old 14 November 2006, 14:35   #32
boing_1000
A1000 Addict
boing_1000's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Eastern USA
Age: 30
Posts: 560
Quote:
Originally Posted by HCF
Actually, ProjectD has been updated several times, even offered a subscription service if memory is correct. Personally, I prefer the look of the older ProjectD but that is just me. Was Super Kit or Hercules Copy the copier you cannot remember the name of?

DeepCopy is actually an option of Amiga Copy and was found on the book disk of Amiga Disk Drives Inside And Out (Abacus/Data Becker).

Either way, checked the RawCopy parameter list today and Arkanoid is on the list so maybe worth a try instead of looking for a hardware copier first?!
Is RawCopy a program? How would I check the parameter list?
boing_1000 is offline  
Old 14 November 2006, 16:46   #33
musashi5150
move.w #$4489,$dff07e
musashi5150's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Norfolk, UK
Age: 36
Posts: 2,284
Yes it is. Rather than being a generic solution for copying 'all' disks (like a hardware copier) RawCopy uses special settings to copy protected disks.

This can be great for the games in it's "list", but it would probably struggle to copy an "unknown" game.

If you only were going to buy a Cyclone to copy Arkanoid (or other games in it's "list") and no other games - then something like RawCopy might do the trick - otherwise Cyclone etc would be best.

If it's anything like the Discovery Cartridge on the ST the parameters are just stored in a text file that you can read.
musashi5150 is offline  
Old 14 November 2006, 17:14   #34
alewis
Monochrome and 8 bit

 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Underbarrow, Gods Country
Age: 51
Posts: 587
ISTR that Arkanoid is in the parameter list of Lockpick and/or Maverick. But, see the caveat I posted - a parameter for one version probably will not work on another.

Super Kit - ah, yes, I reember that. Didn't it come from the same stable as ProjectD, seem to remember that there were two from the same stable. Vaguely remember Hercules Copy.

To be frank, use XCopy in nibble mode. If that cannot copy it, then use a hardware copier. XCopyPro had one of the better nibblers (Nib2 had, I think, the best, but broke under KS2). The nibblers used on Marauder, ProjD, etc, were good for their time, but couldnt handle later protection.

@Hex - DeepCopy is the name of the program on the Abacus book... many copiers had a deepcopy option, just another name for a software nibble mode.
alewis is offline  
Old 14 November 2006, 18:58   #35
HCF
Zone Friend
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: here
Age: 47
Posts: 97
Yes, Super Kit was also written by Ben Fuller who also wrote Quick Nibble and Quick Copy. The programs were really aimed at early protections and I think Quick Nibble could only deprotect Electronic Arts products. It was a neat function though.
Hercules Copy had a copper fade background like Marauder so I thought maybe you were thinking of that one. Wasn't the greatest program, that is probably why you never heard of it.
DeepCopy is not the name of the program but AmigaCopy (V1.2). The program offers DeepCopy 1 & 2 which are options used to copy protected disks and are not parameters in any other copier.
X-Copy was good but I am not really sure it was much of an improvement over Fast Lightning, never really compared the copy routines. What was a big plus was the ability to freeze the mouse and be able to copy stacks of disks without a monitor, those were the days...lol

@boing_1000: RawCopy is a program and you should be able to find it on some copy disks. I figured this was the easier solution to try instead of buying some hardware and spending money. The parameters are automagically selected I believe and the list included is a simple ASCII file with the games supported and whether or not it removes protection. Good luck and keep us posted.
HCF is offline  
Old 14 November 2006, 22:55   #36
alewis
Monochrome and 8 bit

 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Underbarrow, Gods Country
Age: 51
Posts: 587
The source listing (appendix C) calls it DeepCopy... ;-) istr seeing it sometime in the late 80's as such too. But heck, I'm sure it probably did the rounds as AmigaCopy too, and I know I saw it as something else on a compile disk, at least once.

Ben Fuller - yes, of Fuller Systems Inc, or summat. Quick Nibble I remember too. Whilst I have originals of Project D and Marauder II, and erm, copies of the others, these sorta went out of the window with XCopy, Cyclone, and the ultimate in hardware, SCA II.

I get the same feeling about a program that could only deprotect EA games, and yes it could have been QuickNibble. IIRC they used the same routine across all their titles, at least in the early days, so the parameters would have been for specifc titles but using the same underlying algorithim.

Vaguely remember Hercules Copy, but again it didn't bring anything new to the party as it were, so I didn't bother with it.

There was stuff that XCopy could copy that FL couldnt. Frankly, I didn't like it that much, but was quick and did the job (and worked on *all* Amigas regardless of OS, CPU, etc at the time). And if it didn't, then either Cyclone or SCA would. Plus, Simon at Cachet gave me the updates free of charge, so I wasn't complaining. Wonder what he's doing now...

@boing_1000 if you get stuck trying to find it... PM me.
alewis is offline  
Old 15 November 2006, 01:17   #37
HCF
Zone Friend
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: here
Age: 47
Posts: 97
Oh no, I made a mistake. Deep Copy is also a parameter for the Mirror Copier, so yes, it was not just a parameter for Amiga Copy. By the way, the source code refers to it as Amiga Copy V1.2, the label is text4 (in my version of the source code, feel free to check, maybe there is more than one version).

Wonder if the estate of Ben Fuller would be willing to release the Amiga material he worked on. The programs, while not the best for copy protections, were very colorful and I liked the user interface (the Xerox machine comes to mind...). From what I heard from an Atari ST user, Project D was able to copy protected disks easily. But then again, why would we care...lol

And Quick Nibble is that program, that is what the Deprotect option is for (I know, spent too much time making backups of my, um, originals..lol). He also wrote Quick Copy (?) and Quick Copy (?) EA (this one deprotects the EA titles). Just for two drives. I'd have to check but I think Fuller worked on some other little primitive copiers as well but could be mistaken. There was also a version that wouldn't copy anything, Quick Index or something, never came out right...lol

Fast Lightning was pretty good but the only problem was that the options really had non-sensical names. Never really used X-Copy for much but copying disks quick so don't know about the nibble copy routines in comparison to other programs. As a matter of fact, I used Amiga Copy for many protected disks (or RawCopy). White Lightning or Solo Copy while just with one disk drive. Cyclone is good at making copies but it is not perfect. Also, at least in the manual, Cachet warns that signal loss can occur if you copy a copy's copy...lol

By the way, anybody know if Special Copy had different routines than True Copy or Mastercopier?
HCF is offline  
Old 15 November 2006, 01:28   #38
alewis
Monochrome and 8 bit

 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Underbarrow, Gods Country
Age: 51
Posts: 587
Ah yes, I see what you mean. The program displays AmigaCopy, whilst the book refers to it as DeepCopy. I had it on disk as DeepCopy, displayed as DeepCopy. Not hard to use a hex editor though.

The Mirror! Knew there was another nagging at me, and I think actually that might have been the one I had in mind hwen I refered to a.n.other, thinking about it, as it was advertised in mags such as AUI. Thanks for the refresh!

Be nice to look at the source, but you reckon it might still exist?



Dont recall Solo Copy, do recall White Lightning, TrueCopy, and Mastercopier. istr that most of the copiers used the same basic nibble routines, witha different interface. Can remember spending the whole of one saturday morning trying to backup (ok, copy) a disk with every software copier in existence, and aprimitive hardware copier thatr used the video port for clock timing. Nowt worked. cant remember what the title was, though. Rainbow Islands, maybe? Was before 1991, as I was in Germany at the time.

Mastercopier... remember 3 "different" versions of that.
alewis is offline  
Old 15 November 2006, 02:21   #39
HCF
Zone Friend
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: here
Age: 47
Posts: 97
You don't have the disk that came with the book or the book itself? I was referring to the label in the assembler source code in the back of the book or on disk, sorry...

And yes, the Mirror Copier and the Mirror Hack Package (a bit like RawCopy V0.0).

Solo Copy was basically White Lightning without the Copper effect and looking a bit poorer. I believe it was published in a German computer magazine (if memory serves correctly).
ACopy was not that bad either if you didn't mind the rather crude interface...

But 3 version of the Mastercopier? Never seen more than one I must admit unless you count True Copy and Special Copy as Mastercopier versions. All of the copiers shared the bad memory handling and were not able to read a disk to RAM. Special Copy didn't allow single disk copies so that is the exception..
HCF is offline  
Old 15 November 2006, 05:04   #40
boing_1000
A1000 Addict
boing_1000's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Eastern USA
Age: 30
Posts: 560
Trying to make a copy of Arkanoid and One on One (an EA title) has always presented me with issues. Sometimes I feel like the biggest noob and it annoys the hell out of me.
boing_1000 is offline  
AdSense AdSense  
 


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
backing up games on Speccy +3 fitzsteve Retrogaming General Discussion 130 21 September 2014 22:16
Backing up an amiga HDD Raffaz New to Emulation or Amiga scene 6 28 October 2007 20:42
Backing up an Amiga HD Galaxy support.Apps 8 13 September 2004 10:10
Backing -Up E-Mail to a CD Steve support.Apps 1 31 January 2003 18:16
backing up amiga originals before they die tassy support.Apps 17 29 July 2002 01:39

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 03:41.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Page generated in 0.27051 seconds with 11 queries