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View Poll Results: Do you own/use Amiga Forever? - Multiple Choice Poll
Yes I find it a very useful package 21 14.48%
Yes it is worth the money 15 10.34%
Yes but I thought it was too expensive 14 9.66%
Yes but there are better alternatives 8 5.52%
Yes but it was not of much use to me and was a waste of money 12 8.28%
No 86 59.31%
I would consider it if there was a Lite version 10 6.90%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 145. You may not vote on this poll

 
 
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Old 02 October 2006, 15:22   #81
Anubis
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glwxxx,
so why people who bought AF are looking for WB3.1 adfs in the order to install ClassicWB??

One reason I dislike AmiKit is that you have to have OS3.9 or AF to start with, while simple solutions like ClassicWB reaqure just couple of 'licensed' OS 3.0/3.1 things to work and perform better.
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Old 02 October 2006, 15:28   #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anubis
glwxxx,
so why people who bought AF are looking for WB3.1 adfs in the order to install ClassicWB??

One reason I dislike AmiKit is that you have to have OS3.9 or AF to start with, while simple solutions like ClassicWB reaqure just couple of 'licensed' OS 3.0/3.1 things to work and perform better.
So you dislike Cloanto and you dislike AmiKit... apparently Cloanto DID include what you thought they didn't include with the AF package... so now on to the next thing to bash (or so it seems)?

I would say... it is nice that there are several different alternatives to chose from... then you can, to a higher extent, make you choice based on what you are looking for, instead of being stuck with only one option.
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Old 02 October 2006, 15:33   #83
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I never changed my opnion and it is the same as before 'incident'.

All the time I was ClassicWB supporter and you can see that in CWB subforum. But it's hard to recommend someone new to amiga ClassicWB as both kickstart and workbench 3.0/3.1 are required.

And here we go back to 'Cloanto suck' topic.

Edit:And since when stating your own opinion is 'bashing'?

Edit 2:No, Cloanto as far as I know is not distributing WB3.1 ADFs. Some poor sould who paid for new package please confirm this.
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Old 02 October 2006, 15:45   #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anubis
All the time I was ClassicWB supporter and you can see that in CWB subforum. But it's hard to recommend someone new to amiga ClassicWB as both kickstart and workbench 3.0/3.1 are required. And here we go back to 'Cloanto suck' topic.
Well, yes, I can understand that fully. That is, that it is hard to recommend ClassicWB because of such a thing. But Cloanto doesn't OWN the rights to the differents OS'es and the ROM's (as far as I understand it), they have only LICENSED the rights to include them. Cloanto does their thing, and if ClassicWB and such require 3.0/3.1 OS and ROM's, the authors of ClassicWB should really be the ones talking to the copyright holders about getting the rights to include those things with the package.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Anubis
And since when stating your own opinion is 'bashing'?
I consider it bashing when repeatadly claming this or that, with talking down on this or that (in this case Cloanto), without even checking the facts.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Anubis
No, Cloanto as far as I know is not distributing WB3.1 ADFs. Some poor sould who paid for new package please confirm this.
(I updated this part of my post since I found a better quote, but someone beat me to it)

Quoted from their site:

"Amiga Forever includes ROM and system disks between version 1.0 and 3.1, including 1.1, 1.2, 1.3, 2.04, 2.05, 2.1, 3.0 and 3.1. Beta versions (e.g. "1.4", which was then released as 2.0), and versions released only for a specific type of hardware (e.g. the relatively buggy 2.00 which worked only on the A3000, or a special version of the 1.3 operating system to support the A2024 monitor) are not included. These items have been licensed to Cloanto by the successors of Amiga Corporation (formerly Hi-Toro) and include newer developments by Cloanto and by other third parties."

Last edited by Legerdemain; 02 October 2006 at 16:01.
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Old 02 October 2006, 15:47   #85
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You don't need to buy Amiga Forever in order to know it includes all the AmigaOS ADFs and ROMs
http://www.amigaforever.com/kb/3-114.html
 
Old 02 October 2006, 16:02   #86
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So that changed. Should I now buy new amiga product to have it? And if yes, from where to buy? Thanks for the links.

It would be funny if it wasn't sad...

Old version of AF did not include WB3.1, and this is one small plus toward AF. (after all those negative signs...)

But I still don't believe what they claiming as last time they said 3.x (AF4.0) it was their WB replacement they were talking about.
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Old 02 October 2006, 16:09   #87
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Not that I really want to get involved in this discussion, but to be honest I also didn't think that AF had all the WB3.1 disks...

Here's a quote from an expert in another thread i.e. Thomas

http://eab.abime.net/showpost.php?p=273145&postcount=2

Good to see that they now include everything needed
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Old 02 October 2006, 16:16   #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Legerdemain
Just look at the Virtual Console. It seems to be pretty well recieved... why isn't people screaming: screw Nintendo! They are just making cash out of something that the community have supported for years! They just rerelease old stuff and sell it for way too much money? Why isn't Nintendo the bad guys this time around? Why don't people scream of angst just because they consider that the software that will be available to buy for download for the Virtual Console should be free... I mean, it soooo old software? Why should one have to pay $5 to be able to play the 23 (or something) years old game Super Mario Bros? Nananananah... and so on...
The Amiga is a dead machine. Nintendo isn't.
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Old 02 October 2006, 16:25   #89
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The Amiga is a dead machine. Nintendo isn't.
What are you talking about? The Nintendo Entertainment System, the Super Nintendo Entertainment System and the Nintendo 64 are all dead systems... aswell as most of the others that will be emulated through the Virtual Console.

Just like Nintendo will be offering a chance of re-living the past with games for 'dead' consoles (PC-Engine, MegaDrive/Genesis and others included), Cloanto is offering a chance of re-living the past with software for the 'dead' classic Amiga.

Besides, the fact that Commodore is no more doesn't mean that all of the IP's related to the Amiga has vanished into thin air.

Last edited by Legerdemain; 02 October 2006 at 16:34.
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Old 02 October 2006, 16:48   #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DamienD
Not that I really want to get involved in this discussion, but to be honest I also didn't think that AF had all the WB3.1 disks...

Here's a quote from an expert in another thread i.e. Thomas

http://eab.abime.net/showpost.php?p=273145&postcount=2

Good to see that they now include everything needed
Thank for the link DamienD. That explain WB3.1 distribution, and why all users who don't have their WB3.1 should get new Cloanto version. (or at least update)

@ Legerdemain - difference between Nintendo and Cloanto is that Nintendo will sell rights for the 'game' while Cloanto sells only right to 'legaly pirate' amiga games. Sounds funny...

BTW, planning for next console to get Wii.
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Old 02 October 2006, 16:54   #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Legerdemain
What are you talking about? The Nintendo Entertainment System, the Super Nintendo Entertainment System and the Nintendo 64 are all dead systems... aswell as most of the others that will be emulated through the Virtual Console.

Just like Nintendo will be offering a chance of re-living the past with games for 'dead' consoles (PC-Engine, MegaDrive/Genesis and others included), Cloanto is offering a chance of re-living the past with software for the 'dead' classic Amiga.

Besides, the fact that Commodore is no more doesn't mean that all of the IP's related to the Amiga has vanished into thin air.
Isn't Wii a Nintendo product? Isn't the Virtual Console a service offered by Nintendo? That, to me, makes all the difference. They are selling their products, even that they are from dead systems. (Putting aside other machines that will be emulated as well).

IMHO, if Commodore was still in business and putting out products I wouldn't find it wrong if they were still making money out of their 20 year old products, eg Amiga Roms. Just like Nintendo is doing with it's VC.
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Old 02 October 2006, 16:54   #92
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Originally Posted by Anubis
@ Legerdemain - difference between Nintendo and Cloanto is that Nintendo will sell rights for the 'game' while Cloanto sells only right to 'legaly pirate' amiga games. Sounds funny...
I am not sure that I understand what you mean? Could you clarify?
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Old 02 October 2006, 17:03   #93
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IMHO, if Commodore was still in business and putting out products I wouldn't find it wrong if they were still making money out of their 20 year old products, eg Amiga Roms. Just like Nintendo is doing with it's VC.
But do you find it wrong that those that have accuired the IP's, rights or simply licensed software (like Cloanto) or hardware for sale are doing just what they have paid to do... to sell a product?

I mean, Commodore may be no more... but was it wrong that the company that bought the rights to the Amiga continued to compile and sell the A1200 and the A4000? From what you are writing, I can come to no other conclusion! I don't see your logic... sorry! To me it sounds like you are saying that only the ones that originally developed this or that should be allowed to sell their very products, and if they go defunct and someone LEGALLY buys the right to continue their line of products or sell some software, those that bought the very rights to do this or that shouldn't be allowed to do that very thing.

What you are saying makes absolutely NO sense to me...?
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Old 02 October 2006, 17:06   #94
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If you go couple pages back in this tread, you'll find this post with quote from Cloanto web sites:

Quote:
* On their Website they state " This makes it possible to run thousands of Amiga games and demos which are available for free download from software publishers and Amiga history sites alike."
It is taken from this quote on their web site:

Quote:
Amiga Forever is the award-winning Amiga preservation, emulation and support package which allows Amiga software to run on non-Amiga hardware legally and without complex configuration. All versions of Amiga Forever include everything you need to run different "Classic" Amiga emulation and OS environments in simple one-click steps. This makes it possible to run thousands of Amiga games and demoscene productions which are available for free download from software publishers and Amiga history sites alike


And just to add I'm tired of this pointless discussion in which you're trying to prove me something 90% of us (and maybe including you) don't believe. Let's just finish at: we have different opinions, and I will continue not to support Cloanto, while you better support them. Commodore Amiga mark somehow tends to glue to the companies that get out of business. Or at least participate in help to our hero who is looking for free roms web sites. (in other words, do something constructive )
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Old 02 October 2006, 17:20   #95
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Originally Posted by Anubis
And just to add I'm tired of this pointless discussion in which you're trying to prove me something 90% of us (and maybe including you) don't believe. Let's just finish at: we have different opinions, and I will continue not to support Cloanto, while you better support them. Commodore Amiga mark somehow tends to glue to the companies that get out of business. Or at least participate in help to our hero who is looking for free roms web sites. (in other words, do something constructive )
Not that Cloanto is encouraging piracy in any way... you do have Dream17, you do have other sites which holds legal Amiga games... you do have AmiNet with quite some PD-games, you do have... e.t.c., e.t.c., but, yes, they make it sound a tad (?) easier to obtain the game software legally than it is in reality. But, on the other hand, tell me one company that doesn't make their advertising seem a bit 'over the top'.

Oh. Well. Anyways.

By the way, I am NOT trying to prove anything in particular (and I don't know what it is, that you are talking about, that people don't believe in general). I am just rather fed up with comments (to threads like this one, for example) that seem to have nothing to do with reality... were it feels painfully obvious that people isn't even TRYING to see the bigger picture (that often is to be seen if one just bothers about looking just slightly past ones predetermined opinions). And, no, I am not blaming someone in particular now. It is more in a 'generally speaking' fashion.

Though, I am glad that opinions differ. Otherwise there wouldn't be much to discuss at all.
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Old 02 October 2006, 17:27   #96
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If I read VERY closely ...

I even agree with some points of the original poster.
But I will be very specific...

Quote:
* The fuckin Kickstart and Workbench should by now be a free download. Those fatass execs who managed to buy the rights are making cash off Amiga Nostalgia fans with something they didn't contribute the slightest to develop.
No. I have no problems to pay for a licensed product like Kickstart/Workbench if there's a proper licensee. In this case, there is: Cloanto.

Quote:
they try to sell their glorious overpriced package by seducing their customers to download Amiga games for free.
Yes, it's overpriced.

Quote:
* Most of the Amiga Forever package comes from other people's hard work: Linux, UAE, Fellow, Demos (even by Pirate Group!!! Scoopex), Picasse96, etc, etc.
True ...

Quote:
So basically they sell 'their' Kernel for 40 bucks on a CD where 98% of content is just picked up from other peoples work...
That is just why ...

I have been suggesting an Amiga Forever Lite for years!
ONLY (!) Kickstart and Workbench, and that's it!
And I am stating here publicly: I will be the first buyer!
I want to support legal Amiga emulation, but I am not going to pay for junk crammed on the CD which I have to pay extra money for!

For ... why pay for a lot of stuff that is usually OUTDATED when the new AF comes out and which you'd hardly use? Moreover, zillions of programs can be downloaded for free on Aminet.

my2c.
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Old 02 October 2006, 17:30   #97
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So we agree that Cloanto is not helping amiga community, at least not in the way they have put it in?

And also we agree that amiga community does not have much chance of growing thanks to Cloanto. Not like Atari community, where roms are free of charge?
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Old 02 October 2006, 17:41   #98
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Why pay for a lot of stuff that is usually OUTDATED when the new AF comes out and which you'd hardly use? Moreover, zillions of programs can be downloaded for free on Aminet.
I think that one of the reasons this very kind of issue appears where many people feel upset with Cloanto is that the community doesn't really see that Amiga Forever isn't mainly directed to the Amiga community, but people in general that want to have an instant way of playing around with an 'Amiga' on their PC.

It seems that most of the ones that are bothered with Cloanto is bothered with them because they don't offer the OS's and the ROM's to the community (at least cheaply, without all the added goodies... because Amiga using people already have all the goodies). I wouldn't mind a bundle that could be bought with only the ROM's and the OS-disks, so in theory I would support your suggestion. In reality, though, I have no clue as of what their license looks like, if they even are legally entitled to sell such a bundle... but, if that is what you guys want, why not get in contact with Cloanto and bring forth your suggestions (if you haven't done so already)?



Quote:
Originally Posted by Anubis
And also we agree that amiga community does not have much chance of growing thanks to Cloanto. Not like Atari community, where roms are free of charge?
Didn't you just say that the discussion was pointless? In whatever case... once again, apparently Cloanto does not own the rights to the ROM's or the different versions of the OS, so it isn't up to them to decide if they should be released for free or not... what is it about this that is so hard to get? Cloanto isn't the reason that the community isn't growing if the community isn't growing because of non free OS-versions or ROM's... it is the copyright holders (or simply, the owners of the ROM's and OS-versions)!

Last edited by Legerdemain; 02 October 2006 at 17:49.
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Old 02 October 2006, 17:58   #99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by glwxxx
You don't need to buy Amiga Forever in order to know it includes all the AmigaOS ADFs and ROMs
http://www.amigaforever.com/kb/3-114.html
No, the adf disks of workbench 3.1 are not on the AFpackage. I bought the latest AF some time ago for the videos on dvd that were offering, and looking in the data cd, i found only an adf that is named Workbench 3.1 and seems to be a modified original wb3.1 disk only suitable for packages like aiab who only ask for the install disk, but for performing a full installation of 3.1, is not feasible.
This was the thing that pissed me of, since i payed for the roms and the operating system.
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Old 02 October 2006, 18:22   #100
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Quote:
It seems that most of the ones that are bothered with Cloanto is bothered with them because they don't offer the OS's and the ROM's to the community (at least cheaply, without all the added goodies... because Amiga using people already have all the goodies).
Bingo!

Quote:
I wouldn't mind a bundle that could be bought with only the ROM's and the OS-disks, so in theory I would support your suggestion.
Thanks, and note that we can just HAVE BOTH! Why couldn't AF retail and AF Lite co-exist next to each other? I think they could. So everyone can buy what he wants. The current problem is that he has no choice, though.
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