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View Poll Results: Do you own/use Amiga Forever? - Multiple Choice Poll
Yes I find it a very useful package 21 14.48%
Yes it is worth the money 15 10.34%
Yes but I thought it was too expensive 14 9.66%
Yes but there are better alternatives 8 5.52%
Yes but it was not of much use to me and was a waste of money 12 8.28%
No 86 59.31%
I would consider it if there was a Lite version 10 6.90%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 145. You may not vote on this poll

 
 
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Old 02 October 2006, 12:45   #61
Legerdemain
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bippym
cloanto don't own the kickstarts, they pay a licence
Well, that was exactly what I thought...

My verdict, then, goes something like this: I think it is great that Cloanto is offering the Amiga Forever package to whoever feels like buying it. And, unless those that have produced some of the material to be found on the Amiga Forever package complains about their material being 'flogged', I see no reason to do so either. Cloanto wants to do business, fair and square, and I see nothing wrong with that. Since Cloanto have obtained a license for including the ROM's on their package, Cloanto isn't really the one to blame for not releasing the ROM's for free (if that is what one feels like would be the best for the community).

What Cloanto have done, and haven't done, in any other areas... I have not got a clue about and thus I can't say anything about it.
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Old 02 October 2006, 12:51   #62
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An "offical" Amiga product in 2006?

Cloanto did / do a great job.
And itīs okay to pay for Amiga even in 2006.

We are Amiga fans.
We think itīs worth to OWN an Amiga.

Donīt you think itīs worth to PAY for Amiga?
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Old 02 October 2006, 13:21   #63
Anubis
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bippym
cloanto don't own the kickstarts, they pay a licence
Any more about this except your word for it??

If Cloanto does not own the roms, then who owns them?

@Legerdemain - I don't think that their product is worth money. Why someone might need their WB replacement when there are nicer and more useful replacement such as ClassicWB and AIAB?? (both free)

Why they don't sell roms by it self for reasonable price having in fact that this is something 15-20 years old? Oh, then they can't charge high enough to make high margine?
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Old 02 October 2006, 13:25   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Legerdemain
and, that I believe that they are selling a product worth paying for (since people apparently are paying for the product).
People are paying for the "product", because Cloanto eliminated all fair and free ways to get them by eliminating all Websites and Users providing them. It's called a monopoly - even if a "legal" one.

Cloanto is only providing things that were all free and available once. They made them ilegal, and enforced them being ilegal by legal harassment and bullying of Website, Users, and Fans.

These Kickstarts and Workbenches, were all payed by Amiga users back in the day. These things, for all other platforms are available for free. The 1.3 and 3.1 Amiga has been dead for over a decade. The only platform out there that's this old and still has jackals picking away at it's cadaver is the Amiga.

Unsurprisingly enough, it's become the smallest and quietest one compared to it's past sucess, its fans have to run around shitscared of what might happen to them lest they host or provide the wrong file or infringe the odd license from the last century. Fer christ sake, Amiga Inc. bullied websites into legal compliance for providing a movie file showing an hacked Kickstart Rom, nothing else!

I understand that Cloanto needs money. We all do, But my sugestion is that maybe they should get real jobs, like everyone else. Selling free software + abandonware + stuff that everyone already bought once in the 80\90's twice sure isn't beyond ethical reproach. Must be a great "Job" though. I wish i had it. Burn other people's Software on CD's and make free cash - I think there's another name for that 'profession' actually, but there you go.
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Old 02 October 2006, 13:31   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anubis
@Legerdemain - I don't think that their product is worth money. Why someone might need their WB replacement when there are nicer and more useful replacement such as ClassicWB and AIAB?? (both free)
I'm perfectly fine with you not thinking their product is worth money, and it is great that you have found other software solutions that you find better. I would not mind owning Amiga Forever, though... because I think it is a nice package. Taste differs, and I am thankful for that... otherwise the world wouldn't be that interesting.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Anubis
Why they don't sell roms by it self for reasonable price having in fact that this is something 15-20 years old? Oh, then they can't charge high enough to make high margine?
Because it isn't their intention to sell ROM's. Can't blame them for that. And, of course they want to make as much profit as possible, why shouldn't they?
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Old 02 October 2006, 13:33   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by viddi
Cloanto did / do a great job.
Yeah, burning other people's Software on a CD and shoving a label on it. The level of expertise, must be, out of this world!

Quote:
Originally Posted by viddi
And itīs okay to pay for Amiga even in 2006.
It's not an Amiga. It's free Emulators. And Workbenches everyone who owned an Amiga already payed for once, sometimes more.

Quote:
Originally Posted by viddi
We are Amiga fans.
And, as is usual with Amiga Fans, being abused the living crap out of by a company with no scruples, with only $ signs on their eyesights.

Quote:
Originally Posted by viddi
We think itīs worth to OWN an Amiga.
Well, again, it's not an Amiga. It' an emulation. Whose Emulator is freely available. If it were hardware i'd gladly pay for it. It's not, it's IP software i already payed back in the late 80's early 90's.

Quote:
Originally Posted by viddi
Donīt you think itīs worth to PAY for Amiga?
You know, repeating it doesn't make it true, not it's not an Amiga. It's a free Emulator bundled on a CD.
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Old 02 October 2006, 13:48   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Legerdemain
Since Cloanto have obtained a license for including the ROM's on their package, Cloanto isn't really the one to blame for not releasing the ROM's for free
Actually, they are. These Kickstarts were available all over the web until "Cloanto" came along and "Licensed" them out of "Amiga Inc."

Then they went on a Crusade rampage and tore down every single site that had them (or merely seemed to!). And to this day they keep doing it.

It was all available for free, abandonwared if unspoken, until Cloanto looked at it and thought: "Hey, people seem to want them, let's burn them on a CD and make cash!"

Then they "Licensed" it of "Amiga Inc." Of whatever "Amiga Inc." i can't even remember, whatever one existed at the time, in between all the "Bankruptcies" they filed to escape paying debts, or being liable for all the weird coupon scams they ran with users money of. All goodfellas. "Amiga Inc.", "Cloanto"'s burning CD society, and their numerous eSnitch soldiers, the lot of them - All nice, honest, fellas. God bless 'em all
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Old 02 October 2006, 13:54   #68
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that's not called crusade, it's called businness. and properly done too. you can change the name Cloanto with any other company name. as far as repetitions go, as you says, you bore me.
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Old 02 October 2006, 13:55   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultron
People are paying for the "product", because Cloanto eliminated all fair and free ways to get them by eliminating all Websites and Users providing them. It's called a monopoly - even if a "legal" one.
Get real. Even if Cloanto have sought to eliminate some sites (I don't know if they have, but what I do now and don't know doesn't really matter in this very case) they are not the only ones having done so when it comes to protecting the Amiga's IP's. My point? Claiming that Cloanto have eliminated ALL fair and free ways of getting hold of blah blah blah is anything but true, and they are certainly not the devil, trying to break up the entire community just to get some cash in their pockets. Not saying that you shouldn't have the right to blame them for this or that, but what you are claiming above is simply not true.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultron
Cloanto is only providing things that were all free and available once. They made them ilegal, and enforced them being ilegal by legal harassment and bullying of Website, Users, and Fans.

These Kickstarts and Workbenches, were all payed by Amiga users back in the day. These things, for all other platforms are available for free. The 1.3 and 3.1 Amiga has been dead for over a decade. The only platform out there that's this old and still has jackals picking away at it's cadaver is the Amiga.
Once again, get real! Just WHEN where the Amiga's ROM's and different versions of Workbench free to be LEGALLY (because that is what, in reality, matters here) spread around? Just because there are computers that are officially dead and few of the companies behind them cares to bother about their IP's being spread around all over the net doesn't mean that it is necessarily legal. Copyright is copyright by law, no matter what one feels about it.

And, to say that the Amiga is the only old computer that someone seems to bother about when it comes to copyright, that is just plain silly and untrue. And, once again, what you claim is free is not necessarily free looking at the law concerning copyright.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultron
I understand that Cloanto needs money. We all do, But my sugestion is that maybe they should get real jobs, like everyone else. Selling free software + abandonware + stuff that everyone already bought once in the 80\90's twice sure isn't beyond ethical reproach. Must be a great "Job" though. I wish i had it. Burn other people's Software on CD's and make free cash - I think there's another name for that 'profession' actually, but there you go.
Abandonware is, and have always been, a term dictated by the community to try to justify priacy of old software which in reality still is under copyright. What I am trying to say here is that Cloanto can't be blamed for looking after their IP's just like Amiga Inc. can't be blamed for looking after theirs. One could consider them being silly, stupid, suckers or whatever, but still... copyright is copyright. Somone owning a company themselves, no matter the size, would certainly understand at least partially what I am trying to say here. Bitching about what the law says on copyright, at least to me, feels more like the way to go...

Just a little side note: there is very little, if anything, in this post above giving away my personal opinions on copyright and piracy (I simply don't see any reason to discuss that in this very thread). So please don't read in between the lines of what I have written to try to see something that isn't there to be found.

Last edited by Legerdemain; 02 October 2006 at 14:03.
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Old 02 October 2006, 13:55   #70
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Of course, itīs not the REAL thing.
But itīs Amiga related and it helps to keep it alive (like we do).

Iīm sure Cloanto will not get rich by selling this Amiga-stuff.
Full color labeled DVDs and printed Inlays are not that cheap.

"We think itīs worth to OWN an Amiga."
=>I meant the real thing.

I donīt need Amiga Forever, because I know about Amiga Emulation, real Amigas and so on.

But itīs great for people who left the Amiga many years ago.
They get the possibility to restart with Amiga just with a few clicks.

Itīs okay to get this stuff for free but itīs worth to pay for it,too!!
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Old 02 October 2006, 13:56   #71
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You right, no one can blame them for wanting to make more profit from Amiga Communiti, but they can't call their self supporters of community, as that's not their intention. No $$ in there...


Copied from Wiki:


Quote:
After Commodore went bankrupt

The bankruptcy of Commodore in 1994 severely stunted the Amiga's growth. Production was halted briefly, until it was restarted for a short time under Escom's Amiga Technologies. Though the machines had been upgraded and had plentiful hardware and software support, the lack of new Amigas meant that vendors sooner or later moved on. Most of the 'leading edge' technology hobbyists and productivity market moved to PC architecture.
Due to the fierce loyalty of some Amiga fans, the 'scene' continued, many years even after the last original Amiga was sold. Inevitably, though, the PC eventually became the undisputed leading home computing technology, and the console wars also left the CD32 for dead.
The rights to the Amiga platform were successively sold to Escom and later Gateway 2000, but Escom almost immediately went bankrupt itself (due to non-Amiga related problems) and Gateway merely vacillated over what to do with its new acquisition. Finally, an entirely new company called Amiga, Inc. (no relation to the original Amiga Corporation) was founded to manage the Amiga product line. Even though Amiga, Inc. has paid considerably more attention to the Amiga product line than Escom or Gateway 2000, because of the extremely small demand in the mainstream market and limited funds, development has been slow and sales poor.
In 2002, Eyetech in cooperation with Amiga Inc, began selling a small number of AmigaOnes. The "AmigaOne SE" was based on Mai Logic's Teron CX motherboard from 2001 based on the POP (PowerPC Open Platform) design, and development to adapt AmigaOS 4 to this hardware began. The AmigaOne SE was succeeded by AmigaOne XE, which was based on the Teron PX, a newer design with a replaceable CPU module which came in G3 and G4 flavours. In 2004, Eyetech began selling the Micro-A1, based on the Teron Mini, a mini-ITX model with a 750GX G3 CPU. The older Amigas are sometimes referred to as "Classic Amigas" to avoid possible confusion with the AmigaOnes.
AmigaOnes are not currently being produced or sold. It is not known whether more will be made.
AmigaOS 4 is still under development, and reports are that it is quite stable and usable. It is hoped that it may be ported to other hardware, possibly another evaluation board, the Pegasos or some kind of Cell based device.
I really wonder who did they have to pay to for rights to sell kickstart roms. Also I wonder if they have rights to sell workbench 3.1. (If yes, why they don't do it?)
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Old 02 October 2006, 14:01   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anubis
I really wonder who did they have to pay to for rights to sell kickstart roms. Also I wonder if they have rights to sell workbench 3.1. (If yes, why they don't do it?)
So why you don't ask them first instead of spreading your assumptions here?
 
Old 02 October 2006, 14:19   #73
Anubis
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That's where you come handy. So why?

BTW, interesting that Wili article on Amiga does not have any reference to Cloanto and Amiga Forewer, even they are biggest supporter of community.
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Old 02 October 2006, 14:23   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anubis
People (if they) are buying Amiga ForMoney because that is the only 'legal' way to get amiga kickstart and workbench. (BS, you don't get WB3.1 with it and I doubt that Cloanto has right to everything included in WB3.1)
You're right. It's the only 'legal' way to obtain AmigaOS ROMs for newcomers. Otherwise, it would be legally unrechable. I doubt Amiga Inc or whoever is the owner of these ROM would care to make some ROM package for newcomers, needless to say it would not be for free!

And why the old Amigans are so angry, I don't understand this. They already have their real machines, so they already have AmigaOS ROM. They can set up their own emulation system with this ROM, they don't need Cloanto at all. I don't understand when someone claimed: "Why I should pay twice"? You don't need to. Just use your ROM and use it for emulation.

Quote:
Just small example. I'm talking to someone who never had an Amiga. He moved from C64 to PC. I explain him that Amiga had nice sound/gfx, that a lot of C64 games have been made on Amiga too and that they look and play better.

He likes to try it, but it is illegal until he buys roms from Cloanto. (and rest of the crap that they sell)

And this is where his interest in Amiga ends.
I can say similar story about someone who admires a new car but when it comes to money the interest is over.

Quote:
Any more about this except your word for it??

If Cloanto does not own the roms, then who owns them?
I appreciate you are finally trying to search for the facts.
 
Old 02 October 2006, 14:30   #75
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glwxxx,
it's true, we are paying price for new car and getting just a single tire of an almost 20 year old car. (If we use your way of putting things together ) Good deal? No, it's not IMHO.

Compared to Amiga's biggest rival of its time, Atari, which allowed distribution of ST (and other models) roms, Amiga community is doomed.
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Old 02 October 2006, 14:34   #76
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@Anubis

Well, Anubis, I don't get it why you blame a company for paying for AmigaOS and ROM license in order to make it available for newcomers, for money, of course. And they provide it in ready-to-go package. I can't imageine your newcomer hunting for all the system files, especially if he has never seen the Amiga before. Needless to say these files would be illegal.

Don't forget, if you really care about Amiga community, you can always license AmigaOS and ROM yourself and then make it available for free. You would be a hero!
 
Old 02 October 2006, 14:46   #77
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Good suggestion from another well known amiga community hero.

I never said that I believe that Cloanto has up to date license nor that they have all licenses. Their own info page about licenses is not much clear at what license they have. I believe I will have to ask Getaway as Amiga Inc. dead IMHO.


And Glyxxx, don't play stupid. Reason Cloanto does not include WB 3.0/3.1 is that is required for other better packages such as ClassicWB, AmiSys and AIAB.
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Old 02 October 2006, 14:50   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anubis
Good suggestion from another well known amiga community hero.
That was cheap.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anubis
And Glyxxx, don't play stupid. Reason Cloanto does not include WB 3.0/3.1 is that is reauired for other better packages such as ClassicWB, AmiSys and AIAB.
What are you talking about? By the way, they have the links to those packages on their site! AFAIK AmigaForever includes slighty modified version of OS3.9... Please try to summarize the objective facts before you post again.

Last edited by glwxxx; 02 October 2006 at 14:55.
 
Old 02 October 2006, 15:05   #79
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Did I hurt your feelings? C’mon, just get over it. (You seems to be doing fine with that )

Question was why OS3.1 is not included.

I don't care about AF, but ol' OS3.1.
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Old 02 October 2006, 15:18   #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anubis
Question was why OS3.1 is not included.
...and the answer was: summarize the objective facts before you post again.

Amiga Forever contains AmigaOS from version 1.0 to 3.9. Including OS3.1 of course. One would say you're out of (rational) arguments...
 
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