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View Poll Results: Do you own/use Amiga Forever? - Multiple Choice Poll
Yes I find it a very useful package 21 14.48%
Yes it is worth the money 15 10.34%
Yes but I thought it was too expensive 14 9.66%
Yes but there are better alternatives 8 5.52%
Yes but it was not of much use to me and was a waste of money 12 8.28%
No 86 59.31%
I would consider it if there was a Lite version 10 6.90%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 145. You may not vote on this poll

 
 
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Old 07 January 2012, 01:45   #261
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Cloanto bashing on EAB

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Originally Posted by prowler View Post
Surely you are also entitled to dump the ROM image to a file and use it with emulators?

Both AmigaExplorer and WinUAE facilitate this.
Not to my knowledge, but it's interesting that you mention Amiga Explorer as facilitating this. Perhaps in some jurisdictions it's OK, in others it's not?

I remember somebody went through the license that came with the Amiga computers and quoted (in some Amiga forum) the exact parts where it explicitly said that the software could not be used other than with the Amiga. Now I could be wrong as I am citing by memory. But I think the law would generally be against making a copy, and it would have to be the EULA that allows for it.

What are you basing your "Surely" on?
 
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Old 07 January 2012, 01:50   #262
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What are you basing your "Surely" on?
Quote:
Originally Posted by prowler View Post
Both AmigaExplorer and WinUAE facilitate this.
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Old 07 January 2012, 02:05   #263
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If there were no Amiga Forever, then there would be MANY MANY MORE "new users" saying, "I just got WinUAE and my games don't work? I need a Workbench ROMz!"

For that reason alone, Amiga Forever is a good thing.... ;-)

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Old 07 January 2012, 02:09   #264
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Thanks, desiv, for those words of wisdom.

And this is a good point at which to close the thread, methinks.

EDIT: Well, as you can see, after some thought I've decided to re-open the thread so that the discussion can continue, but with the new title in mind.

Please be warned that anything similar to last Friday's disrespectful showing will be swiftly dealt with.

Last edited by prowler; 09 January 2012 at 02:29. Reason: Thread re-opened.
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Old 09 January 2012, 01:56   #265
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>I remember somebody went through the license that came with the Amiga computers and quoted (in some Amiga forum) the exact parts where it explicitly said that the software could not be used other than with the Amiga. Now I could be wrong as I am citing by memory. But I think the law would generally be against making a copy, and it would have to be the EULA that allows for it.

One has the fair use right to make an archival copy of software. EULAs have no legal weight. Additionally, I worked with H&P to test OS3.9 under WinUAE and I explicitly told them I was using it under emulation and they had no problem with that.

>This is not true, what laws are you basing your statements on? If you own an Amiga you have the right to use the ROM built inside the Amiga with that one Amiga computer, but that's it.

It's called format-shifting and is completely legal. According to your argument it even would be illegal to remove a ROM from one Amiga and put it into another. In fact according to your argument all emulation that isn't explicitly sanctioned by the original manufacturer would be illegal, which is patently not the case.

>Again, you are promoting piracy on EAB, which is against the rules (and the laws).

I'm not promoting piracy (at least not in this case), and stating my opinion is not against any rule or law.

>Does Cloanto need to "bribe" you again so that you can give Amiga Forever an "objective" look?

No, I didn't ask them to send me the first one and I'm not asking them to send me another one either.

>Or were you using a pre-NT version of Windows?

Yes, indeed I was at the time. Probably on a later version of Windows it would not bring down the whole system, I suspect it would still crash though. But I haven't tested this.

>They did not "remove" anything.

This is a lie. They *did* remove components, and they even admit this on the page I linked to earlier.

>"3.9" is an illegal (according to Amiga Inc.) product by Haage & Partner.

Amiga Inc. are the ones who licenced H&P to make it! And I have not seen any statement by them to the effect that they think it's illegal. I do recall them trying to claim OS4 was illegal, but the judge did not agree. I suppose you think Amiga dealers such as AmigaKit who sell OS3.9 are criminals then?

>Did you read what you linked to? Cloanto gave the source code to Amiga so that Amiga could do the port. It was Amiga Inc. who was supposed to do the port, not Cloanto.

It doesn't matter. The end result was still that it didn't get ported. There was nothing stopping Cloanto from porting it themselves, or to getting some other company than Amiga Inc. to port it. Or of course they could even open source it if they aren't planning on doing anything with it.
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Old 09 January 2012, 10:51   #266
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So Minuous....What exactly would you like to see happen about cloanto to rectify things in your eyes.
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Old 09 January 2012, 15:11   #267
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To save any further confusion, "Amiga Explorer", "Transdisk" and "Transrom" are all suplied on the Cloanto Amiga Forever CD to allow you to copy your ROM image and transfer files between PC and Amiga. For all the legal doubting folk about using a copy of your Amiga's Rom for your own personal use, then please read the section of text below which is part of the ReadMe.txt file that I include in the .rar file. This is an old version and I suggest that before any comments are made doubting the legality, that any would be writer actually reads the information that is provided on the Amiga Forever CD that they have in their possession.

From the 2005 AmigaForever CD

D:\Amiga\AF_Boot\ReadMe.txt (where D: is the cd drive)

The "Transdisk" and "Transrom" utilities can be used to create image files of Amiga ROMs and floppy disks, for use with the UAE and Fellow Amiga emulators. Floppy disk images are usually referred to as "ADF" images. The same functionality is also part of Amiga Explorer, which is capable of creating "virtual" ADF and ROM image files, so these additional tools are mainly interesting when Amiga Explorer is not used. Transdisk and Transrom can be found on the Amiga Forever CD-ROM, on the Amiga Forever boot disk image, and in the "Emulation/shared/amiga_utilities" subdirectory of the Amiga Forever installation (usually "C:\Program Files\Cloanto\Amiga Forever" on an English language Windows system).


The above utilities to make a ROM etc are still provided on Amiga Forever for anyone to copy their roms for their own use, so please lose the its illegal to do so mentality and look at the information that is already provided on the CD if anyone would care enough to actually read it.

[Attachment removed by request due to copyright (!) - Graham]

Last edited by Graham Humphrey; 11 January 2012 at 11:39.
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Old 09 January 2012, 19:05   #268
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I thought it was understood by everyone that if you owned and amiga you could legally use roms ?

I must have missed that one.
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Old 09 January 2012, 19:45   #269
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No Mate, it seems that some haven't come to terms with that one for example post 258 onward :-

http://eab.abime.net/showpost.php?p=...&postcount=258
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Old 10 January 2012, 04:54   #270
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The license for amiga os dictates that 1 set of roms/os can be used on 1 machine. Want to run it on 2,... buy another copy.
As for Cloanto not contributing back to the community, theyve contributed to aros kickstart rom replacement for starters.
AmigaOS3.9 being licensed by A.Inc means squat. Remember the amithlon fiasco? It was cancelled due to the fact a.inc dont own os3.9.

AmigaForever is more than just Winuae for those that like to harp on the fact it can be downloaded for free. As many have stated there's the kickstart roms, and OS files. Some people seem to think the fact theyre (rom images) encrypted is bad. I think that nonsense myslf, but to each his own. They still serve thier purpose, and legally.

There's a bunch of little (and not so little) bits and pieces of other work too. The live booting OS3.x is quite a nice little feaure. Some people install it straight to harddrive when thyey dont want the host visible. Its a heck of a lot simpler than dealing with linux and doing it yourself. There's the videos, the games, the OS disk images, the game launcher, lots of versions of uae for various formats (nice to have them in a centralised place, most arent updated anymore anyway (68k uae, wos uae, dos uae, etc.).

Yes the vast majority of this stuff can be downloaded for free, but not all, and really, so what? You can buy packaged versions of linux distros for a small price too. Do those inclined feel the urge to complain about that too? Some people are willing to pay a few dollars for a nice organised, packaged collection of stuff on disc, and good luck to them.

I really dont see what the problem is. Dont think its worth it for you? Simple, dont buy it, but I dont understand the need to deride someone over thier work simply cos its not for you.

They paid for thier license and theyre selling a nice little package to try to make a few dollars from that. Where's the problem?
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Old 10 January 2012, 06:31   #271
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Quote:
Originally Posted by synchro View Post
So Minuous....What exactly would you like to see happen about cloanto to rectify things in your eyes.
If it worked better as intended, eg. they rectified the missing and obsolete files this would go a long way. Eg. there is not even any GIF support due to patent issues, but that patent expired years ago. In general, the whole package just lacks polish and care. Maybe bundling some additional AmigaOS applications and games might help add some value.
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Old 10 January 2012, 13:19   #272
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fishyfish View Post
I really dont see what the problem is. Dont think its worth it for you? Simple, dont buy it, but I dont understand the need to deride someone over thier work simply cos its not for you.

They paid for thier license and theyre selling a nice little package to try to make a few dollars from that. Where's the problem?
Absolutly....Thats all i have been trying to say
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Old 10 January 2012, 14:31   #273
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@fishyfish, is this what you are referring to "As for Cloanto not contributing back to the community, theyve contributed to aros kickstart rom replacement for starters." or was there something else they did, serious question as I don't actually know.

Cloanto sponsors AROS Objectives:
Quote:
1. Bring The m68k compile of AROS back out of unmaintained.
2. Must initially work from whatever means is possible so long as the build is going again, and the codebase is brought upto date with the changes in the x86 native/hosted flavours. (ie you could use some command in amigaos to bootstrap aros or similar)
3. Initially binary compatability isnt needed with amigaos (not until atleast you can get the thing working again)
4. Must compile the main components of AROS (read AROS main cvs branch), and optionaly allow other components to compile.

Donors: Alexander G($ 53) Cloanto($ 298) David F($ 25) Don C($ 18) Emmanuel L($ 95) Martin H($ 31) Matthew F ($ 14) Matthew P$ 5) Mike M($ 15) Olivier A($ 15) Timothy R ($ 25)
Interestingly Cloanto also shows up as sponsor.

Many thanks to all those generous souls who'd contributed for the bounty.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now as far as having everything backed up in one handy place etc goes, in this day and age, if you can't compile a range of favourite games, the emulator and needed files etc and then back it up onto a blank CD for future use, then there is definitely a shortcoming somewhere along the way!

I am not talking piracy, I am talking about using what you have and making a proper working setup that suits your needs. There really is no need to constantly purchase the files over and over again as in buying the latest version of Cloanto You are however entitled to use your own money however you wish but please don't allow people to think that the newest reincarnation of the product is any better than the last umpteenth previous version, at least no new changes of any importance.

As I have said before, if you can't get a real Amiga, then Amiga Forever is a step in the right direction. Once you know what you are doing, go and advance your pleasure by using WinUAE by itself and eventually add HDfs and see what you have been missing

If people still want to fork out again and again for the same items, well that is their prerogative, personally I would sooner buy a WHDLoad key and use it with WinUAE, an Amiga or Minimig, it even works on my old Xbox's Amaga emulator and its fantastic. I also have the required ROMS so forget about piracy and such nonsense


People really do funny at times don't they
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Old 11 January 2012, 06:03   #274
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Cloanto bashing on EAB

Quote:
Originally Posted by Minuous View Post
If it worked better as intended, eg. they rectified the missing and obsolete files this would go a long way. Eg. there is not even any GIF support due to patent issues, but that patent expired years ago.
Are you still working with that pre-Windows NT system? We now have the year 2012, and the version of Amiga Forever is 2012, we can't keep talking forever about things that are 5 or 10 years old. If you don't have anything to say about the current version, why say anything at all?

GIF support is there (for example: DataTypes and Personal Paint in the Workbench 3.X environment), and I am not aware of any missing files.

Had you followed the news over the years you would know that Cloanto was probably the only Amiga company that actually had a license and was paying the royalties to have the GIF there even while the patents were valid. The other Amiga companies, from ESCOM/Amiga to Haage & Partner were just pirates in this respect. Yet you keep bashing Cloanto. Is it because they respect laws, whereas your site was shut down (but not by Cloanto) because of its "inappropriate" content?

Why do you keep making inaccurate statements, when you recently brought this thread back to life claiming to want to correct some mistakes?

This whole "Cloanto debate" thread begins with "The fuckin Kickstart and Workbench should by now be a free download", continues with gems like "A recent study of prostitutes well learned in the craft of sucking balls showed that even that is preferable to using Amiga Forever" and ends with more lies (I call them lies because you claim to verify things).

Why this lot of obscenities and incorrect statements has not been deleted instead of being locked and re-opened again escapes me. Amiga sites were not like this in the old days...
 
Old 11 January 2012, 06:21   #275
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Anti-copyright movement on EAB

Quote:
Originally Posted by Allen1 View Post
To save any further confusion...
The fact that guns are legal in many countries doesn't make killing people at random legal, does it?

To save any further confusion, let me quote from the Amiga Forever and Amiga Explorer EULAs:
  1. "This Software is intended for use only with properly licensed media, content and content creation tools. You agree to use only those materials for which you have the necessary patent, copyright and other permissions, licenses, and/or clearances."
  2. "You agree to only use the ROM imaging functionality of Amiga Explorer for lawful purposes. Examples of lawful purposes may include the backup of ROMs, if allowed by the laws applicable in your jurisdiction, and the analysis of ROM versions in order to use a specific ROM version that was licensed separately with the Amiga Forever software."
The software is shareware and the download is public, so everyone can check this:

http://www.amigaforever.com/ae/
 
Old 11 January 2012, 07:24   #276
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Cloanto bashing on EAB

Quote:
Originally Posted by Minuous View Post
One has the fair use right to make an archival copy of software.
I do not object to backups. I guess it is good to have a backup of your ROM in case it breaks.

As to "fair use", you may want to better research the words you use, because it has nothing to do with copying entire software programs:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_use

Quote:
Originally Posted by Minuous View Post
EULAs have no legal weight.
Who says this, are you a lawyer? Ask a lawyer if you can copy a ROM from one computer and use it somewhere else (not for "archival" or "backup") and please share the response here.

To the contrary, I believe that an EULA may allow for a copy, if the owner so chooses. But I don't think the EULA that came with the Amiga computers, if one did at all, mentioned such an allowance.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Minuous View Post
Additionally, I worked with H&P to test OS3.9 under WinUAE and I explicitly told them I was using it under emulation and they had no problem with that.
You are mentioning a company (H&P) that was using GIF code without a license from Unisys, MP3 code without a license from Fraunhofer/Thomson, and who (according to Amiga) kept selling "Amiga OS 3.9" without a valid license... It doesn't sound like this "no problem" came from a reputable source, does it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Minuous View Post
It's called format-shifting and is completely legal.
Here you can read about "format shifting":

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Format_shifting

It doesn't exactly say that it is "completely legal" ("Copyright law may not allow..."), but it should be clear enough that it does not apply to making a copy of one piece of software for use on another machine. Plus the copyright exemption, if any, would apply only to libraries and similar institutions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Minuous View Post
According to your argument it even would be illegal to remove a ROM from one Amiga and put it into another.
Why do you claim that I claimed such things? I never did.

An Amiga ROM chip is an original part. I don't see a problem combining different original parts (not duplicating them) for repair purposes. Do you?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Minuous View Post
In fact according to your argument all emulation that isn't explicitly sanctioned by the original manufacturer would be illegal, which is patently not the case.
No, you are again resorting to putting words in my mouth that I didn't say.

Writing a software emulation of some hardware is one thing. That's what UAE (without ROMs or other third-party software) is, for example.

Copying unmodified copyrighted ROM and other software files without a license is a different thing. It involves no work, and it is very simple to define: it is theft.

You can also rewrite the ROMs with a clean-room or similar approach. Several emulators have compatible ROMs that do not use any of the original code. WinUAE using the AROS code (which incidentally was supported by Cloanto, and even included in Amiga Forever 2012) is one such attempt.

You can learn more about emulation on this very nice site:

http://www.amigaforever.com/emulator/

In rare cases a software emulation may also infringe on trademarks, which are easy to work around (simply remove the marks) and patents, which usually will have expired by the time a piece of hardware is emulated. So I am not considering these, although they were relevant in the early days of UAE (according to Gateway).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Minuous View Post
And I have not seen any statement by them to the effect that they think it's illegal.
I have, and that's why Hyperion was not able to use the 3.9 code to make 4.0 (they had to revert to 3.1), remember?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Minuous View Post
I do recall them trying to claim OS4 was illegal, but the judge did not agree.
Incorrect again, I am afraid. Amiga and Hyperion settled (there never was a judge agreeing or not agreeing on anything).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Minuous View Post
I suppose you think Amiga dealers such as AmigaKit who sell OS3.9 are criminals then?
I don't know what they are doing. But perhaps you would like to open a new thread for this?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Minuous View Post
It doesn't matter. The end result was still that it didn't get ported. There was nothing stopping Cloanto from porting it themselves, or to getting some other company than Amiga Inc. to port it. Or of course they could even open source it if they aren't planning on doing anything with it.
Of course it matters. Plus, it is well known that Cloanto will give the source code to any developer who asks for it to try to port it. Several people got it already. Their stated goal is to make it build on at least one of AmigaOS 4, AROS or MorphOS before releasing it to the public at large. There were recent discussions about this on amiga-news.de.

Why don't you use Google before posting? It would make this thread much shorter...
 
Old 11 January 2012, 10:23   #277
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>Are you still working with that pre-Windows NT system?

No.

>GIF support is there (for example: DataTypes and Personal Paint in the Workbench 3.X environment), and I am not aware of any missing files.

I was taking their word for it, I guess I should have known not to believe them. According to their current page http://www.amigaforever.com/kb/15-107 it isn't. Maybe you should read it.

>Ask a lawyer if you can copy a ROM from one computer and use it somewhere else (not for "archival" or "backup") and please share the response here.

So therefore all emulators are illegal then. Which, as I just pointed out, is not the case. And even if it were this would make Amiga Forever illegal.

>To the contrary, I believe that an EULA may allow for a copy, if the owner so chooses. But I don't think the EULA that came with the Amiga computers, if one did at all, mentioned such an allowance.

I'm not going to repeat myself, so refer to my earlier post.

>You are mentioning a company (H&P) that was using GIF code without a license from Unisys, MP3 code without a license from Fraunhofer/Thomson, and who (according to Amiga) kept selling "Amiga OS 3.9" without a valid license... It doesn't sound like this "no problem" came from a reputable source, does it?

You can slander H&P all you want, they have done more for the Amiga than Cloanto ever will. You say nothing ever happened to Amiga Inc. in court, the same applies to H&P, you can't have it both ways.
Everyone knows Bill McEwen's Amiga Inc. operation is as shonky as they get so I wouldn't pay much attention to what he says.

>It doesn't exactly say that it is "completely legal" ("Copyright law may not allow..."), but it should be clear enough that it does not apply to making a copy of one piece of software for use on another machine. Plus the copyright exemption, if any, would apply only to libraries and similar institutions.

So every emulater author and user is a criminal then. I don't think so and the page you referred to doesn't say that.

>An Amiga ROM chip is an original part. I don't see a problem combining different original parts (not duplicating them) for repair purposes. Do you?

No, but what has this got to do with anything?

>Copying unmodified copyrighted ROM and other software files without a license is a different thing. It involves no work, and it is very simple to define: it is theft.

Dumping a ROM is theft then? Why don't you go complain to the MAME developer and dumping teams about it then, I'm sure they will laugh at you.

You can learn more about emulation on this very nice site:

>I have, and that's why Hyperion was not able to use the 3.9 code to make 4.0 (they had to revert to 3.1), remember?

That's not the reason. It was nothing to do with patents, they didn't have the source code for OS3.9. Why don't you use Google before posting?

>Plus, it is well known that Cloanto will give the source code to any developer who asks for it to try to port it. Several people got it already. Their stated goal is to make it build on at least one of AmigaOS 4, AROS or MorphOS before releasing it to the public at large. There were recent discussions about this on amiga-news.de.

OS4 has been around for over half a decade and the others for even longer and they have only now decided to open source it, it's probably too late for it to do much good.
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Old 11 January 2012, 11:41   #278
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Questions !!

Since the Amiga's Demise

1 ...How many people have been taken to court and put in prison or fined for using an illegal kickstart rom ?

2...How many people have been taken to court and put in prison or fined for using an amiga game they dont own ?

The very most contact anyone has ever got is " please can you remove my game from your site " as far as that goes. And we all would respect that.

Unless your selling a product no one seems to care and if you say cloanto is a dodgy product then the law does not appear to care about that either...so whats the point in arguing about it.

Minouos if you got your way and cloanto got closed down and roms, amiga games etc were made highly illegal then bye bye amiga community. Just be thankfull no one really cares.
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Old 11 January 2012, 13:54   #279
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@synchro I agree with most of what you just wrote with the exception of the last part :-

Quote:
Minouos if you got your way and cloanto got closed down and roms, amiga games etc were made highly illegal then bye bye amiga community. Just be thankfull no one really cares.
There would always be ways and means for the "Amiga Community" to survive, if it wasn't for the work done by crackers and the easy means of getting hold of games or software when the Amiga computers were still being sold back then, the Community wouldn't have been as big as it was. If there wasn't any PD, Piracy and people making their own games etc, the Commodore line of home computers wouldn't have been as popular as they were and still are.


Non of which had anything to do with anyone like Cloanto except maybe Amiga Explorer and Transrom etc but if you take away the likes of Amiga Forever, there will always be something to fill the gap and probably an equal or much better effort. There have been a few CDs for the Amiga in the past which to be honest made Cloanto's effort look pretty lame especially at the price, I suspect many of the older CDs were Pirate in as much as they didn't have a licence for any ROMS but as I say, there is always an alternative and once again a real Amiga or WinUAE and WHDLoad is a far superior product to own, regardless of where the ROMS are sourced.


Nowadays with CF transfer and hard drive methods, the important piece of software is WinUAE, it does just about everything and that includes setting up a hard drive for a real Amiga. Without WinUAE, the Amiga Forever CD would be pretty much useless other than an option for altered ROMS and workbench disks or maybe a coaster to put your coffee cup on.

In other words, I think its way past its expiry date especially for anyone who has used WinUAE and managed to set it up with hardfiles etc. For a beginner, well maybe its a start but I have said all that already.

The best I can say for it, is that its a gap filler till you learn something better that will cost you nothing and then you realise that the money you spent could have bought a CF Transfer setup or WHDLoad key etc .
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Old 11 January 2012, 16:44   #280
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For beginners, non amiga owners and collectors its a pretty good package...mines 2005 version but i wouldnt buy another...Anyone can download a Game...a film....or music. but some people want DVD and the packaging as well....If i buy a program online i want the works so i could sell it on again once im done and people would buy because its boxed.

If i put my cloanto on ebay i could probably still get 20 boxed as new....what would i get for a download ? So if you really want it its the best way.

Yes its a gap filler agreed but so is a cheap paint program until you master it and want more....ya gotta start somewhere..
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