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Old 02 August 2006, 13:07   #1
Doc Mindie
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What are we allowed to download?

With this, I mean commercial software.

For example, I have the coverdisk of some magazine which included the CygnusED, but this disk is now rotten, I keep it to "prove" I have it legally, just in case and such.

Still.... Are we actually alowed to download this kind of software, or should we (in the sense of strict copyright laws and such) buy the software all over again?

With this, I do NOT mean to say "download wahtever you want" or somesuch, I just want a healthy and nice discussion of our morale when it comesdown to these things, which in some cases might actually be a copyright infringement.

I recognize the fact that computers are computers, and for as long as they exist there WILL be piracy. But I would like to see what others think of the morality/legal aspect of the issue.
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Old 02 August 2006, 13:20   #2
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It isn't so much just morals here!

There is a fine line with regarding what we can cannot download and basically if it is still sold or supported then we can't share it.

If I think that a certain piece of software is going to be a threat to EAB then I am going to remove it..

As for Cygnused you might want to contact AndreasM with the proof and he might let you download a copy of the exact same coverdisk, but tbh I cannot say for certain!
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Old 02 August 2006, 17:47   #3
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Rule of thumb: Hardly anything that's very new, that's for sure!
Games from 2000+ are usually sold and must not be uploaded anywhere! This also applies for download URLs. Also some games from 1995+ are -- regardless of their age -- even still sold by active companies like APC&TCP.

HOL will help here a lot. Thanks to AndreasM's cooperation, we have now catalogized everything commercially sold by this publisher/distributor.
In cases of doubt, FIRST take a look there, and do not make the mistake of uploading first then going like "Oh, I didn't know...".

Last edited by andreas; 02 August 2006 at 17:53.
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Old 02 August 2006, 18:07   #4
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Maybe a list of still sold software could be set up in EAB's FAQ?
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Old 02 August 2006, 18:38   #5
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As I see it, there's NO morality in selling a 10 years ago software no more developed. But, nevertheless, speculators are part of the system.
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Old 02 August 2006, 20:55   #6
DrBong
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doc Mindie
For example, I have the coverdisk of some magazine which included the CygnusED, but this disk is now rotten, I keep it to "prove" I have it legally, just in case and such.

Still.... Are we actually alowed to download this kind of software, or should we (in the sense of strict copyright laws and such) buy the software all over again?
This is kind of an interesting example for a few reasons. After not being actively developed for several years, CygnusEd is suddenly being developed again now that APC&TCP have bought the rights to the software. This makes the issue of downloading old versions of CygnusEd that were previously released on magazine coverdisks suddenly contentious (at least for APC&TCP).

Most people mistakenly believe that old Ami magazine coverdisks (now and back in the day) are PD/freeware and may be freely copied. If you go back to the original magazines you will find that this is not the case. They usually had licenses which read along the lines that the coverdisks had to be bought with the magazine and could not be sold separately and could not be offered for resale secondhand. Obviously the last bit wasn't enforced by the mags as the logistics of doing so would have cost them more money than it was worth because usually it was private individuals who were reselling the coverdisks for pocket money.

Quote:
I recognize the fact that computers are computers, and for as long as they exist there WILL be piracy. But I would like to see what others think of the morality/legal aspect of the issue.
Unfortunately what is morally right plays little or no part in the bottom line of businesses these days (i.e. profit and losses).......and for small business this is understandable to an extent. Morality also doesn't play a part on EAB, only the legal aspect does.........and rightly so because it will only take one commercial license holder to prosecute RCK (or even threaten it) for EAB to close for good. Risking EAB's closure is not really worth the paltry sums that new Amiga commercial software is being sold for nowadays......and that's why mods like Bippy and Retroman make a good fist of a thankless & difficult job in policing this aspect. That's my 2c....

Anyway, I reckon this topic has been done to death on all the forums including EAB. Does the FAQ need more info. or clarity on this aspect for newbies or something?
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Old 07 August 2006, 18:32   #7
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I don't consider meself a "n00b" when it comes to the Amiga..... and hardly to EAB even nowadays

CygnusEd... I believe it was an CUAmiga Coverdisk, with v3.5 on it? Anyways, DiskRot(c) has claimed it My point here wasn't just CED, though, it was software in general, and the morality of downloading disks to replace rotten originals.

And to that point, I personally believe that I bought the software, paid my money, and if I can't use the original disk (for any number or reasons, DiskRot(c), misplaced, and so on (if you've thrown the disk away, you're screwed, IMO, and should buy the software again)) am I morally obliged to buy a new one? That will (in the case of boxed things at least) leave me with two manuals, but only one useable disk.

Though some might have a use for my "extra" manual, I don't want my bookshelf to be cluttered with two three four five manuals for the same software, does that make any sense?

And just to make sure, what we call "abandonware" isn't, in the technical sense really abandonware, is it? I mean, none of it is over 50 years old and thus truly free of the copyright rules, especially since the Amiga is only 21 yo this year
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Old 07 August 2006, 19:04   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doc Mindie
CygnusEd... I believe it was an CUAmiga Coverdisk, with v3.5 on it? Anyways, DiskRot(c) has claimed it My point here wasn't just CED, though, it was software in general, and the morality of downloading disks to replace rotten originals.
Yeh I know you were talking about software in general. I was just pointing out why CED is an interesting case that muddies the waters for what you're wanting to discuss.

Quote:
And to that point, I personally believe that I bought the software, paid my money, and if I can't use the original disk (for any number or reasons, DiskRot(c), misplaced, and so on (if you've thrown the disk away, you're screwed, IMO, and should buy the software again)) am I morally obliged to buy a new one? That will (in the case of boxed things at least) leave me with two manuals, but only one useable disk.

Though some might have a use for my "extra" manual, I don't want my bookshelf to be cluttered with two three four five manuals for the same software, does that make any sense?
Are you morally obliged to buy a new one? I guess that's between you and your priest/maker and depends on availability of the software from alternative sources! It's pretty much horses for courses as to what I would do, but that's me. Are you legally obliged to buy a new one.......for sure.

Quote:
And just to make sure, what we call "abandonware" isn't, in the technical sense really abandonware, is it? I mean, none of it is over 50 years old and thus truly free of the copyright rules, especially since the Amiga is only 21 yo this year
Yep, no such thing as "abandonware" for the reasons you state.
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Old 11 August 2006, 23:49   #9
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there wont be any amigas left in 50 years
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Old 12 August 2006, 00:05   #10
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there wont be any amigas left in 50 years
Probably most of us won't be here either.
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Old 12 August 2006, 00:12   #11
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Old 12 August 2006, 01:07   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doc Mindie
And to that point, I personally believe that I bought the software, paid my money, and if I can't use the original disk (for any number or reasons, DiskRot(c), misplaced, and so on (if you've thrown the disk away, you're screwed, IMO, and should buy the software again)) am I morally obliged to buy a new one? That will (in the case of boxed things at least) leave me with two manuals, but only one useable disk.
the concept of property and possess and their application are human constructs, call their applications instruments to do a job; they are constantly revised and rethinked, most of all in face of abstract objects as information and pieces of informations, data.
an ancillar concept to them is the one of usufruct/utilise of said tangible and intangible objects. in art for instance, who's to say where a piece, with all the context of significance it may have along itself, become property of the community? or an idea? law is by no mean perfect, it's just a tool, an approximation: to it morale, while founded it too on concorded values, is a far relative. you feel your right and wrong but you act on law' licit and illicit.
sometimes, in law's wrinkles, like here you feel law to act stupidly.
but you have to accept it (relatively) because at least a majority of rights are (relatively) safeguarded. however i kinda miss the more free days of my youth, on that respect.
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Old 12 August 2006, 06:02   #13
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and we would like to thank brother padrana, for spending his time with us, his would be children, in our hour of moral crisis..

the baskets will be passed arround, all donations are gladly received.

*lol awsome stuff there my friend, and i totaly agree and ascribe to it.*
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Old 12 August 2006, 11:20   #14
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lol! you don't have to take SO seriously my ramblings mate
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Old 13 August 2006, 09:37   #15
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My rule of thumb is that if it is no longer supported or sold (the revision or platform you need it for) then pirate it or find a used copy if you want a printed manual. I don't see an ethical problem trading ADF images for a dead platform when the company that produced the app is no longer around to support it or sell you a new copy.

Copyright is something that has changed quite a bit over the years, which is why Disney can still lay claim to the little rodent named Mickey Mouse (if you pay the correct people Copyrights will last forever).

Just for the hell of it I picked a box off the shelf from a well known company (Rise of the Dragon by Sierra) to see what it says about bad disks. For the first 90 days they will replace your program (if you have a dated recept), after that it costs $5 per 5.25" Disk and $10 per 3.5" disk that needs replaced. So if I needed all 10 of my 3.5" disks replaced 91 days after I purchased it it would be $100, more then the program cost new. Asuming the people who own seirra are still around, do you think they would honor what was printed in their manual if one of my disks went bad tomorrow and I wanted a replacement?
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Old 13 August 2006, 11:40   #16
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Just for the hell of it I picked a box off the shelf from a well known company (Rise of the Dragon by Sierra) to see what it says about bad disks. For the first 90 days they will replace your program (if you have a dated recept), after that it costs $5 per 5.25" Disk and $10 per 3.5" disk that needs replaced. So if I needed all 10 of my 3.5" disks replaced 91 days after I purchased it it would be $100, more then the program cost new. Asuming the people who own seirra are still around, do you think they would honor what was printed in their manual if one of my disks went bad tomorrow and I wanted a replacement?
no. maybe that could be defined an aspect of entrophy.
that's a very fine point you make, Unknown_K
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Old 14 August 2006, 07:33   #17
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realistically a copywright has only been relinquished if the said works have in part or whole been available through any public domain. by doing so the license is released by the licensor.

thats pretty much the law.

but as brother padrana states, law only exists to add a legal form to an abstract concept.

again with the argument of Unknown_K, entropy all though morally valid is technically illegal, as simply it may retain somthing that could be sold on and hence worth value.

but inrespects to modifying software here is the legal definition (act 1999 dpa)

one can disassemble, in part or whole, any software to which a lisence has been granted for the use of said software. as long as.
1. to provide desired functionality wereby
1.a desired funtionality is not readly available
1.b where the lisencesor cannot make available said functionality.

a lot of software try to infringe on ones rights by declaring a license as read is an agreement with (no decompilation or such can be undertaken of software for and said purpose).

so where does it leave us.

I that find morally duplicating your own software for your own needs is infact your own business, and in truth you are legaly allowed to do so (with limmitation)

insofar as decompiling software, well i believe that by denying our right grants to much propriety power to the licensors.

But the biggest gripe if have is the fact is that:

I am leaglly allowed to duplicate for backup purposes any software i own.
copy protection is infringing on my LEGAL right. so morally if they infringe on my right is it not fair that i should infringe on thiers?

two wrongs may not make any right.. but by and large i am sure the make a good even
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Old 14 August 2006, 07:43   #18
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When it comes down to it every person on the planet is breaking some law or another on a daily basis just by living.

It all boils down to not what the laws are (good luck digging through moldy books going back to the dark ages finding out exactly what each law is in your area), but what you would be expected to get prosecuted for if somebody found out about it and what the penalties would be. Around here putting fairly recent copyrighted materials online for others to download, making exact copies of current software for sale to others, and reverse engineering some protected encryption standards will get you into real trouble while copying a music cd for a friend will not.
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Old 14 August 2006, 11:52   #19
Doc Mindie
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With respect to Retr0'ęs post... does that mean, I can make Windows actually WORK? (Since MicroSoft seems comepletely unable todo so :P)
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Old 16 September 2006, 01:15   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andreas
Rule of thumb: Hardly anything that's very new, that's for sure!
Games from 2000+ are usually sold and must not be uploaded anywhere! This also applies for download URLs. Also some games from 1995+ are -- regardless of their age -- even still sold by active companies like APC&TCP.
That brings up quite a practical question:

What about well-known online Amiga stores, e.g. Amiga Deals which is featured in the HOL links? By these grounds, if a title appears on their catalog it is not ok to redistribute it, but I might be wrong. For instance, several ClickBoom titles are featured, and support for them from ClickBoom itself has been more or less dropped if I'm correct.

Not to say that ClickBoom was renowned for their technical support anyway...
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