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Old 23 April 2006, 13:51   #21
BippyM
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I think boxes/cases should be reduced in size.. so I can get more on my shelf.. The only time a big box should be used is when the manual is HUGE... etc..

PSP is heading the right way.. but the case is still too big..
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Old 23 April 2006, 15:50   #22
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The new DRM mechanisms will more likely created some kind of 'gated community' for expensive, over-marketed softwares. Then we can watch them die slowly, thats what they do in these settlements.

If games were priced according to their target audience - at schoolboy pocket money levels - they could have been selling maybe 10x as much, already in the old days.
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Old 23 April 2006, 15:58   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bippym
I think boxes/cases should be reduced in size.. so I can get more on my shelf.. The only time a big box should be used is when the manual is HUGE... etc..

PSP is heading the right way.. but the case is still too big..
I could never understand the need to make the boxes for the games so big. The Amiga boxes were one of the worst.
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Old 23 April 2006, 18:40   #24
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Originally Posted by Macca
With regards to AlexH's suggestion even propriatory hardware can be modified
Not economically. If the Xbox360 DVD had not been standard SATA, if it had not used a known microprocessor who's firmware could be disassembled and understood, then we wouldnt have people reflashing their boxes at home with a regular PC.

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you can't have full control over everything because that would mean only you are developing over it.
What does that mean? The sentance doesnt make sense

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Everything is crackable, be it handheld firmware, satbox firmware, satbox protection....
You are quite correct. However if the console manufacturers make it difficult to the point it costs a LOT of money for the equipment required to perform the crack, you massively reduce the chances of it happening.

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If there are enough people who will benefit from the free s/w, it will be broken, simple as
Where is the UK NDS (Sky Satellite) conditional access crack then? NDS used such a great propriatory interface, made it reconfigurable so that if anyone ever worked it out they would just change it, they never released ANY information what so ever. The result is 9 years with no successful workaround.
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Old 23 April 2006, 19:25   #25
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Originally Posted by StarEye
I wouldn't. Removing boxes and manuals would remove the main incentive to own the original, and there would be no point in collecting originals anymore. Thus going back to piracy because there really is no point in buying the originals anymore.
Have to agree with that, for games that came with big flashy boxes, mock magazines, newspapers, big story books, comics, well written manuals etc. I was only too pleased to part with 30 quid for!!
Skimping on the packaging and cool little extras would just make me think that 15 pounds was too expensive for what I was getting!
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Old 24 April 2006, 00:16   #26
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Also, the box + manual + cd/dvd manufacture cost is *tiny* compared to the content and distribution costs. Having crappy packaging would only save you pennies.
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Old 24 April 2006, 02:35   #27
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With PS3 the Blue Ray format will be hard to copy cause the blue ray blanks will be like $50+ and then also a modchip..

And from what i hear they wont be selling blu ray data burners for many years.

you can buy a HDTV blue ray movie burner for $4000 aussie dollars and the blanks are $50+ but only for movies.Sony have made sure that no company can make and sell blueray data burners for many years,well this is what i read.
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Old 24 April 2006, 05:48   #28
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yeah... but remember dvd burners and media was that expensive not so long ago... it will happen
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Old 24 April 2006, 10:27   #29
Macca
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Quote:
Originally Posted by -=SPY=-
With PS3 the Blue Ray format will be hard to copy cause the blue ray blanks will be like $50+ and then also a modchip..

And from what i hear they wont be selling blu ray data burners for many years.

you can buy a HDTV blue ray movie burner for $4000 aussie dollars and the blanks are $50+ but only for movies.Sony have made sure that no company can make and sell blueray data burners for many years,well this is what i read.
As Djay said - besides theres no reason why you can't rip the game to DVD format (apparantly they're going to be able to read DVDs) okay you'll loose some of the quality of the movies (or in some cases loose all the movies completley)

Then again if it has the ability to have a hard-drive attached to it... well the possibilities are endless.
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Old 24 April 2006, 21:40   #30
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The blu-ray discs are meant to fit a lot on them, but most of the stuff will be better quality movies. Their not going to be making a 50gb game for it anytime soon. I can't see the graphics on the ps3 being any better than the 360. Blu ray will probably go the same way as UMD, I can't see anyone replacing all their DVD movies with Blu ray ones.
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Old 24 April 2006, 23:01   #31
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Hmm

Well Biometrics are the latest security technique that I'm sure would phase most crackers.

Suppose your video games console comes with built in fingerprint reader, when you go to a store you buy your copy, but your fingerprint is taken when you purchase a game, it is sent to the official database of owners of that game (no names are taken, just a pool of fingerprints for each game).

When you go home, your console must connect online to unlock the game (like Half Life 2), but you need to use the same fingerprint that you purchased the game with or it will not unlock.

If the rom of this fingerprint software were built into the cpu in fixed state, (of the console), the chances of mod chips would be minute as the cpu itself would need to be atered and the chances of doing this safely are near impossible.

Obviously this security will not work with digital distribution, but most piracy still stems from copied media rather than digital distribution.
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Old 25 April 2006, 00:11   #32
Galahad/FLT
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Quote:
Originally Posted by russraine
Well Biometrics are the latest security technique that I'm sure would phase most crackers.

Suppose your video games console comes with built in fingerprint reader, when you go to a store you buy your copy, but your fingerprint is taken when you purchase a game, it is sent to the official database of owners of that game (no names are taken, just a pool of fingerprints for each game).

When you go home, your console must connect online to unlock the game (like Half Life 2), but you need to use the same fingerprint that you purchased the game with or it will not unlock.

If the rom of this fingerprint software were built into the cpu in fixed state, (of the console), the chances of mod chips would be minute as the cpu itself would need to be atered and the chances of doing this safely are near impossible.

Obviously this security will not work with digital distribution, but most piracy still stems from copied media rather than digital distribution.
...which means that you can never sell your console because the new user won't ever be able to load anything, not having the same finger prints!
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Old 25 April 2006, 00:18   #33
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It doesn't matter what copy protection system is employed, whatever someone is clever enough to design, someone else is clever enough to work it out.

Copylock, Safedisc, Macrovision.... all beaten, and in the case of Macrovision for DVD, that was beaten in the first three weeks of the first rollout of DVD movie releases.

Bluray is expensive now, but with the perfect introduction of PS3, millions of people will own a Blu Ray player, therefore the cost of the discs will come down dramatically. DVD's used to be expensive, thats why in the early days, pirate movies on DVD were usually of a high quality, because mr.pirate couldn't afford people to return the DVD's saying they were shit.

And why bother with Skys NDS system, when you simply install Telewest which shows Sky content, and thats been cracked A LONG time now.

The problem is, they get people to design these copy protection systems that have NO experience of cracking them.

On the Amiga, lets just think of three names. Gaston, Eurosoft and Ringo Starr.... throw them all in a room and tell them to copy protect an Amiga title amongst themselves..... you'd expect it to be a good one, because they all have plenty of cracking experience.

Microsofts 'protection' experience is a joke, look how quickly EVERY release of Windows gets beaten, and virus infested at every turn. XBox 360 will be cracked just like everything else.

PSP, well, if your saving money on the games, some people will put up with any hassle so they don't have to pay.

Also the note about piracy being too expensive on these new machines... not so!

Just add up the cost of what it would be to buy all the new XBox 360 games that are released right now, and I'll bet it would triple/quadruple the costs of any hardware that would need to be purchased to enable you to use copies.
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Old 25 April 2006, 01:21   #34
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Yea Piracy is too easy. I dont pirate PS2 games because of the risk of damaging the hardware with soldering and its hastle with swap magic.

However with PC games, its a case of finding the game on usenet, download in3 or 4 hours. Mount the image with full emulation and play.

Tomb Raider legend was put on usenet only a few days after its release. I didnt download it though....looks shit.

But now there is less need for cracking, I can bypass the protection without a NOCD crack using deamon tools and starfuck etc.

I only buy games for consoles and online games that need a valid cd key.

Steam is the way forward, they charge relatively little for their games and they have unlimited replay value. £15 for a great online game that you can play for a few years..
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Old 25 April 2006, 01:32   #35
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Steam is a royal pain in the arse, I develop using the source engine at the moment and every time steam updates it fucks up my work
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Old 25 April 2006, 11:52   #36
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Tomb Raider legend was put on usenet only a few days after its release. I didnt download it though....looks shit.
I just have to ask. What looks shit about Tomb Raider Legend? It's got fantastic graphics, great atmosphere, got great reviews and good controls. Also hailed as the best Tomb Raider since Tomb Raider 2.

What are your standards if this is.. "shit"?
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Old 25 April 2006, 12:42   #37
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Tomb Raider legend was put on usenet only a few days after its release.
it was actually released on the scene a week orso before the official release.. but then again usenet is always lagging behind

and btw TB Legend rocks
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Old 25 April 2006, 13:55   #38
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Originally Posted by Galahad/FLT
It doesn't matter what copy protection system is employed, whatever someone is clever enough to design, someone else is clever enough to work it out.
Very true.

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Copylock, Safedisc, Macrovision.... all beaten, and in the case of Macrovision for DVD, that was beaten in the first three weeks of the first rollout of DVD movie releases.
Using your example, Macrovision 7 for VHS cassettes all but wiped out home "Rent then Video to Video" copying of movies. The hardware to remove the AGC interference at about £90 was just outside the price range of ordinary home users.

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And why bother with Skys NDS system, when you simply install Telewest which shows Sky content, and thats been cracked A LONG time now.
True, True. Even though lots of people are not in cabled areas, cable TV hacking probably reduced the number of hackers interested in working on Sky.

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The problem is, they get people to design these copy protection systems that have NO experience of cracking them.
You think so? I would have thought that it would be a pre-requisite on your CV for most security companies?

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XBox 360 will be cracked just like everything else.
It already is.

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Also the note about piracy being too expensive on these new machines... not so! Just add up the cost of what it would be to buy all the new XBox 360 games that are released right now, and I'll bet it would triple/quadruple the costs of any hardware that would need to be purchased to enable you to use copies.
Yeah, but the XBOX doesnt use propriatory interfaces or media. That is why it is relatively cheap to hack. If they had not used CD or DVD technology and plumped for their own... which COULDNT ever read CD or DVD... and they licensed it so no-one could ever produce a burner. That would have seriously hampered cracking. If M$ had coupled that with having a propriatory interface between the optical drive and the CPU so you cannot just swap in a modified PC dvd drive.

We would still see hacks in the future... but they would be very expensive and would put off the average Joe Bloggs on the street.
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Old 25 April 2006, 14:08   #39
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Blu ray will probably go the same way as UMD, I can't see anyone replacing all their DVD movies with Blu ray ones.
UMD was a step down in quality AND usabillity, no good video out on PSP, and just use the memcard instead of UMD. Blueray/Hd dvd will both be a step up in quality, a good step from the demos i've seen.

With that in mind I'm not suprised that UMD fails, but I can't see blueray going the same way.

Another good "copy protection" is the MMORPG subscription model. Still that only works for as long as playability is based on user interaction.. something I usally hate when all I need is 30 min of arcade gaming. It's no suprise that MS pushes xboxlive, and locks chipped boxes.

Last edited by spiff; 25 April 2006 at 14:13.
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Old 25 April 2006, 20:56   #40
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"The problem is, they get people to design these copy protection systems that have NO experience of cracking them."

I'd disagree with that. Can't comment further.
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