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Old 27 December 2011, 03:50   #101
ufo
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Originally Posted by Galahad/FLT View Post
Tell that to Apple!

Fact is, if Commodore gave the Amiga the technological upgrade it needed, i.e. ignore AGA and go straight to AAA, chances are, the Amiga would have continued for quite a bit longer.

Development on Amiga for the smaller developers was cheap, a decent game got good sales, all it needed was for Commodore to not rest on their laurels and bring the Amiga up to date.

They didn't, and the rest is history. That the Amiga was an all in one solution in one box is irrelevant, because thats exactly what the PS3 and 360 are today.
I don't think games/piracy were the only single factor.

The Amiga was a beast of a machine when it came to other tasks as well and it's a massive shame that they did not capitalize on/in the business market in a big way.

Yes some business users had an Amiga, but it seemed that most Amiga business users were still using it in the home. When they went to work, they would be using a 386 or 486 (PC).

If Amigas could have been encouraged into the workplace in place of 386 and 486's it probably could have enjoyed a longer lifespan, as for such tasks it was also miles ahead of the competition at the time.
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Old 27 December 2011, 08:00   #102
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I think another problem which caused ppl to buy PCs was that everyone thought that the Amiga was only made for playing games.

I still remember a situation dunno exactly when it was, maybe early 90 were my father asked me (I owned an Amiga 2000 these days) not to buy a "more serious" computer. Well I asked him, wtf, what do you mean by this? I love this machine also it can do much more than all of this PC/AT (black/white) bullsh*t.

Well my father said that everyone that owned an Amiga is only playing, since today my father does not know that well in fact I did not play too much games on it but learned how to program, made my homework with its etc..

Even today: In my company I told ppl that I owned an Amiga. If I say that I even had a HardDrive everyone thinks I am an idiot: "What? a harddrive on the Amiga? - haha.. did a game support this?". What? Game? :-)

Macintosh had a "serious" image and "PC" well it was made by IBM, is black and white it actually *IS* for hardcore serious work only, don't you think?
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Old 27 December 2011, 13:35   #103
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Originally Posted by Galahad/FLT View Post
Er, mate, it is on topic!

Someone mentioned piracy/cracked games as being the problem of the Amigas demise, others pointed out that it was more than that.

Struggling to see how this isn't on topic
Thats what i figured as well

Anyway Piracy has been on just about everything and anything ...My mate used to pop something in his snes port and copy the games to floppy...then load them back in the same way and although software houses do thier best to protect thier warez ...Lets face it the console and PC industry do not do to much to help because the pirate industry sells units !!

For Example....Xbox old black version....On the originals to fit a chip you had to blow out solder holes to fit the plug on the board...it was a bit awkward..

On the next release did microsoft remove the holes to stop the plug being fitted....No worse....They unblocked the holes for us

Microsoft give us CD and DVD copying capabilities ( especially included on XP ) ...Thanks very much again !!

Now we can copy blu-rays..movies, music anything ....because the industry give us the tools to do it...In the old days we copied games because we were ripped off left right and center by amazing packaging etc....These days the games are what we dreamed they would be like so the majority would like to own the original....play it then maybe trade it and sell iton ebay or something....or wait a few months and get an xbox game for £9:99 ...And as for the Nintendo DS.....gimmie a break.....they make that so easy its frightning..

CD.s DVD, sold in batches of 100 and very cheap....What you think we need 100 DVD's to copy are pics and word documents on ....As long as we are given the means to do it we probably will.....



Sorry i rambled on a bit

Last edited by synchro; 27 December 2011 at 13:45.
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Old 27 December 2011, 23:12   #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by synchro View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Galahad/FLT View Post
Er, mate, it is on topic!

Someone mentioned piracy/cracked games as being the problem of the Amigas demise, others pointed out that it was more than that.

Struggling to see how this isn't on topic
Thats what i figured as well
Quote:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Galahad/FLT View Post
others pointed out that it was more than that.
That's where it gets borderline. It goes off-topic when this starts to become the focus.
@syncro,

Which part of my reply is incomprehensible?

This thread is not for discussing matters other than Piracy/Cracked games which may have been responsible for Commodore's demise nor how they might have been better dealt with.

Any more off-topic posts of that kind will be deleted without further warning.
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Old 28 December 2011, 01:07   #105
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Prowler !!

This was mentioned log before Galahad and myself mentioned the demise of the amiga ....

Ultron..." Problem with all the people that pirated then, and don't today:
All the Amiga game producers are already bankrupt and the Amiga is dead. "

SilentBob...." But that's a bad excuse, I know.So if the main cause of the downfall of the Amiga was piracy, of course I regret what I did.

DDNI " Did the Amiga suffer due to piracy? I dont think so "

Jope " When I hear the statement "Piracy killed the Amiga" I just roll my eyes and shrug my shoulders. Piracy made the C-64 "

Djay " as for killing the Amiga... well... "

Girv " Did piracy kill the Amiga? No. "

dirkies " are we now criminals who killed Amiga? "

ungi " Still, the reason why the Amiga died was ONLY due to Commodore getting bancrupt "

Guru64 " THAT didn't kill the Amiga. "

Jonsick " Piracy didn't kill the amiga. "


I think an apology is in order !!
Its quite clear the thread had already been discussing what killed the Amiga !!

Last edited by synchro; 28 December 2011 at 01:15.
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Old 28 December 2011, 01:25   #106
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Originally Posted by synchro View Post
Prowler !!

Its quite clear the thread had already been discussing what killed the Amiga !!
Quite so. I am not disputing that. However, a tendency was beginning to develop for the discussion to focus on that exclusively, with no regard to the original subject matter of the thread, and that is what was threatening to drag it off-topic.

Last edited by prowler; 28 December 2011 at 01:43.
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Old 28 December 2011, 16:19   #107
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Quite so. I am not disputing that. However, a tendency was beginning to develop for the discussion to focus on that exclusively, with no regard to the original subject matter of the thread, and that is what was threatening to drag it off-topic.
Ahh right thats fair enough !!

I understand now fully where your coming from. It was the one liner you originally put in that threw me...I really thought i was just following the thread and building on it....Glad thats sorted sorry it got out of hand.

Bringing things back to the theme ....

As far as PS3 & 360 go i for one cannot be bothered to mod anymore... so console games i buy but usually when there on offer or budget.
PC games i will still try.....But if i like them as soon as thier on budget i will buy ...For instance bought force unleashed a fiver at Morrisons the other day....My DSI has an R4i....Cant deny that.
I think games are now better value for money...I used to say " wouldnt it be good if the game gfx were as good as the intros " Now of course they are.

So software houses do actually make money from me now even at full price if i really want it..I think they make a lot more money now than they did back then.. I wonder How many of us Vetrans out there who pirated games still think its worthwhile with todays quality...Also noting a game considered crap now would have been mind blowing back then

PS !! Kickstart roms...Hey i spent a fortune on the Amiga and bought loads of originals....Ok maybe to crack ....but i did pay out and without the amiga community the roms are not worth anything to anyone....So ye i will use them without any guilt what so ever. They really belong to us as far as im concerned.

Last edited by synchro; 28 December 2011 at 16:43.
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Old 02 January 2012, 15:27   #108
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Just seen this post while lurking on GAF: Mr. Worms himself speaking about this very topic and also paying tribute to the Amiga!
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Old 21 February 2012, 05:47   #109
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I remember having to fight my dad about even *having* a computer let alone any software for it...

and continually had to deal with walking away and coming back to the machine being unplugged from the wall and whatever I was working on completely wiped.

the situation only got better once I moved out,
as for piracy?... Id get a game copied... and if I liked it try and track down and buy any original...

I still ended up losing the entire collection to a stupid flatmate being into sick shit and
having to call the cops to get him busted for it (they had to check all the disks)

The officers in question just were incapable due to Amiga being so different to check
all the disks, so it all ended up trashed.

Tried my hand at programming on Linux and Windows for a while and I am coming back
to program on the Amiga, just trying what I want on Windows or Linux would actually
need me to apply the equivalent to a rootkit just to get basic stuff done anything like
what I consider to be "proper".

As for anything I write being pirated? I'd welcome people to try it out and then donate
towards updates or changes they want to see, I'm going to be open-sourcing at least
the core sections of code for other developers to learn from as well.

[EDIT:Added Machine Comment]I'm choosing to develop the new material for the NG series,
as I am buying into Amiga OS 4.x and will hopefully get 2-3 machines working together.
[/EDIT]

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Old 21 February 2012, 09:46   #110
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Back when I had the Amiga, I was fairly young. The thing is, I wasn't even aware that you were supposed to pay for games because, honestly, I never saw a shop that had Amiga games.
There was a specialized Amiga store next town and that didn't even have games just hardware and some office software.

I only realized that you were supposed to buy games when I began reading Amiga magazines.
But, and this is the truth, my parents didn't want me to pay money for games. They reasoned that, why should you pay money if you could get them for free.

Only when I started to earn my own money, I could start buying games. My first one being Monkey Island 1 - so you can see how long it took me.

Today, I'm trying to get every game I ever had (and liked) legally and kind of make up for my mistakes.
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Old 28 February 2012, 11:17   #111
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Games

Of course not mentioning the other stuff.. Piracy may, and be, the only way now people can continuing using their Amiga (this isn't relating to physical computers they people still own, but more so, people like me, who no longer have their physical hardware machine/devices which no hardware is available readily anymore. etc)

Yes.. Piracy is bad, from one standpoint, but on the other side, where would the Amiga be without it ? Hate to say it, but its true.For one, I would only have a few handful of legal stuff from sites like BTTR, and AF slim collection they have bundled.

So really, on my view, Piracy actually helps everything keep rolling.


*edit, I never thought i'd hear myself say that.
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Old 28 February 2012, 14:13   #112
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Majority of my games were original, until the later days when I noticed them being sold one sunny day at a Car Boot Sale! If I couldn't afford it, I'd play the demo over and over until I was bored of not wanting the game! I have to say, the only advantage I saw over originals is the Trainers! I even bought cracked versions of games I had just for this reason - is that legal if I owned the game anyways?...
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Old 29 February 2012, 22:17   #113
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Lets face it....if the gaming and console market did away with all their security efforts and used the money saved to drop the price of consoles and halved the price of the games then piracy would drop like a brick....Most would be happy to pay £15 for a full released game and not even bother trying to mod their consoles or machines.

And to add to that if they took some of the pirates idea's it could be a good thing for instance..

The original xbox modded was a far better machine with its evox menu;s...emulators...movie players....bought from the shop like that it would have wiped the console market in its day.

Even a DS with an R4 is better than how its sold in the shops...Even without the ability to play downloaded games !!
--------------------------------------------------------------------

If i was Bill Gates my next XBOX would have all the capabilities of the original...ie...a clone of evox with all the emulation features etc ....
The Ability to play ALL the xbox games old and new ( without patching and hassle )

No security hassle cuz i would drop the price of the console and games so there would be no point in copying and allow the community to create and add thier own applications like ViceX and SnesX etc.
A bit like buying Half-Life and making Mods for it ..
Sit back and get rich again

Better to sell all my games for £15 than not many at £45

----------------------------------------------------------------------

I know you can play retro on xbox live etc but im talking out of the box not paying online

Last edited by synchro; 01 March 2012 at 01:23.
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Old 01 March 2012, 16:01   #114
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I copied friends games, and don't feel guilty about it. But one thing that kept me honest, and buying original games as well was the existence of honest magazines with honest reviews; my disposable income was never great, and the idea that I could lower the risk on a purchase by getting an informed second opinion was a considerable positive influence. Obviously first hand information by playing a pirated copy helped, there were one or two games I purchased after playing them directly, but this just changed where money I would have already spent on games went... for blind purchases however magazines were essential. And for pleasant surprises, budget games were a worthy lucky dip... I too remember £1.99 Firebird/Mastertronic cassettes!

But I know full well there's a difference between the programmers and creative types and the Industry; the link to a post by the author of Worms is a good example of that. He may deserve to be compensated for his work, but Team 17 the publishers were shits. Remember their long running campaign against Amiga Power because they didn't rate every game fantastically?
Which is why I don't feel guilty today, because if the games industry was honest, and didn't try then and now to nobble reviewing media, and create an artificially unfair market place for the consumer, it wouldn't have been so easy to justify pulling so hard in the other, selfish direction. And it wasn't just games of course, the music industry got away with charging the CD format "premium" for decades after production cost became just pennies.

No, it wasn't piracy, but high prices, low quality control, and a shocking disregard and disrespect of the consumer that ultimately doomed the Amiga; The industry was itching to make the leap over to embracing all of those, by racing over to consoles instead, where they thought the locked into propriety system, with in-house reviewing, would generate more profits without needing to worry about quality product...

This isn't hypothetical; I've seen the change in my own buying patterns since. I'll often buy games on a whim from Steam when on sale for a low price (Plants V Zombies last week for £1 or so, that's cheaper in absolute terms, let alone 3 decades of inflation, than £1.99 tapes); the combination of low price, widespread awareness of quality, and availability of demos and youtube display means you can stay informed and happy to be involved in the market. But you can't trust a lot of the gaming media anymore; the last boxed PC game I think I bought at release was SPORE, 4 odd years ago now... and that was horribly bugged, something not caught by much of the media, and I've not done it since. I can't remember the last speculative PC purchase I made, to be honest I'm not even sure there ever was one. And that's the natural result of the path the industry has committed itself too.

The response? Now they are trying to destroy the second hand games market with online, one time use verification even for consoles. Were I to own one, you can bet your ass I'd be a pirate again. £40 games where I can't trust the reviews and may turn out to be a lemon with no online community and no way to sell it on? What part of that makes any sense at all from my point of view?

But back in the Amiga days, yes I'd have a physical copy of some lemon of a game. You'd have never got my money for it though because I knew it was a lemon. And I was actually playing Knights of the Sky and Ultima V instead, games I bought originals of... and then pirated back up discs of. Oh, and lots of games which actually were fun and I'd never paid for too, let's be 100% accurate. I only had so much money though... but it wasn't enough to have an honest take of that then. And they've only grown more rapacious since; those that haven't, like Steam, have a great reputation and flourish. Those that embraced greed, like Commodore who argued with Amiga Power that including crap games with the Amiga bundle "was a great incentive to go out and buy more games" went under. Or, like Team 17, just keep releasing Worms again and again and again (and never, ever fixing online matching making in any version of it).
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Old 20 April 2012, 05:45   #115
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Greed. Greed from Commodore killed the Amiga. Piracy is an ongoing problem to this day. XBox survives. Playstation survives and DVD/Blueray survives.
All of these are raped on USenet. NZB's are full of current day offerings.
Commodore failed to invest back into the Amiga. Dumping machines with no real improvements and nothing new. I have over 10 real Amigas still operating. I bought 10-20 Originals, most of my stuff is from my BBS uploads.
My BBS hurt the sales and all involved in that food chain. For that I am sorry. However Commodore with greedy bastards like Medhi Ali, a worthless managing director with no direction except to run the company into the ground while making a profit, killed the Amiga.
 
Old 20 April 2012, 09:54   #116
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Piracy is bad, be it on the Amiga, or on what ever other system.

People did work hard to make their creation !

Oh, i'm not a white sheep either, i did it too in the past. It is of course very temptating if we can just copy some game and have it for us without paying anything. I think copy protections need to become smarter, like with online checks. Yes i know, some people do not like that idea, but if it can help the game industry to survive better, i'm all for it. Actually everything tends to be more and more online. I know some still cannot always play a game , or just stay connected online, but in the futur everyone will be able.. or close to everyone.
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Old 20 April 2012, 19:31   #117
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People did work hard to make their creation !
This is true but only when it was to late....They also worked very hard in the early days to rip us off with fancy packaging and wonderful descriptions on the box.....eight to ten pounds a game. 20 years ago was a lot of cash to find out you bought a load of crap and back then you couldnt just take it back.

The market got flooded with games in the begining even before there were mags to give us reviews of 1 or 2 games worthy of buying.
Thats really when the companys got their act together to produce quality games but it was to late by then piracy was all over and its the Vic20, C64 age im talking about never mind the Amiga etc.

However on a good note.....films for a fiver....music CD.s for a couple of quid and retail games for a fiver !! you can thank piracy for the low prices you pay today.

You cant blame piracy for everything some of it was self inflicted by legal companys ripping us off.
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Old 20 April 2012, 19:44   #118
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This is true but only when it was to late....They also worked very hard in the early days to rip us off with fancy packaging and wonderful descriptions on the box.....eight to ten pounds a game. 20 years ago was a lot of cash to find out you bought a load of crap and back then you couldnt just take it back.
Hey, you were not obliged to buy them.
When magazines with reviews began to sell, we could have some hints about the games quality, but before that they were "closed chocolate boxes".
Many things in life are like that.
Fair? Not fair? All goes and went as it goes/went...
Personally, I never bought a game without having seen it reviewed or showed on a monitor/tv in a game shop etc.
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Old 20 April 2012, 20:01   #119
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Hey, you were not obliged to buy them
No but we had nothing else to go by back then except what was on the box.
Thats why they got away with it...As i said once the mags came out the quality of games got better and you could find out more about a game before buying it...

You say many things in life are like that.....Not so much now....you can google anything..watch TV....Media reviews....its a lot harder to sell crap games these days or anything for that matter...Ok a second hand car maybe

Il bet the forum is full of people who bought games back then based on what was on the box

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Old 20 April 2012, 20:03   #120
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Saw an interview with a FLT member today. Pretty interesting stuff.

http://computersweden.idg.se/2.2683/...till-the-elite

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