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Old 16 March 2006, 19:11   #1
cebulba
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Angry The latest form of FRAUD!

Hello folks,

well, I thought this practice has already been abandoned but yet I have been outbid "out of Ebay" on an ULTRA RARE AMIGA game I would like to question this again and hopefully we got a good discussion here.

What disapointed me the most is, that the guy who did it,is part of this board and a 400+ poster.

In short: An item on Ebay has been cancelled due a private offer by one other Ebay member. All other bids had been cancelled to saying "item no longer available".

I will quote a friend here so you will notice what I'm talking about. I need to hear your thoughts on that - mostly from the collector's like me around here.

Quote:
The Latest Form of Fraud


Okay, everyone please bear with me. I'm about to rant for a bit about something that has been boiling my blood for a few weeks now, and I'm probably going to make some people mad.

As you've probably noticed, this spring has seen a disproportionately large number of rare items showing up on eBay and closing at high prices. That's good, it means our hobby is alive and healthy. But I've also noticed a disproportionately large number of rare items showing up on eBay... and then suddenly going away. The auctions close early, any bids are cancelled, and there was either an "error in the listing" or the item is "no longer for sale".

We all know what's really going on here. People are contacting the sellers, trying to get them to sell the rare items privately, knowing they'll likely be outbid if they try to win the auction using the normal method. So they offer the seller a price that sounds high to them, but to most other collectors would be a bargain, to convince the seller to close the auction early and eliminate the competition. The eBay term for this is "auction interference". The buyer gets the item at a discount price without having to bid for it, the seller gets what he considers a premium, everybody wins. Right?

Well, except for the honest bidders who still try to win the old-fashioned way.

No doubt some of you who engage in this practice are reading this, thinking, "Ah, this has happened to Forman, so now he's having another hissy-fit because he hates to lose." Which I suppose is true to some extent. I mean, nobody likes losing auctions, but it's a fact of life. Nobody wins every single time, so we learn to deal with it. I lose items every week because people who are willing to pay more outbid me fair and square. But what's worse than losing is never getting the opportunity to win. When someone sneaks around working deals behind the scenes, it robs every honest collector of that chance. It is a form of cheating.

To the SELLERS who engage in this practice:

You are being TRICKED. The only reason someone would want you to end an auction early, the ONLY REASON, is because they think they can get the item for LESS than they or other people are really willing to pay. Think about it: If their maximum was really an "outrageous" price, they could just bid that amount normally and they'd win for sure. It's the ones who think they CAN'T win any other way who are trying to con you into accepting a lesser amount.

Don't fall for it! Leave the auction up, no matter how many off-eBay offers you get. Those bidders aren't going to ignore your item just because you declined to sell it to them privately. They want that game, and they're going to snipe their TRUE MAX for it (which is almost certainly going to be more than the "high" offer they make to you). How do you know some other bidder isn't lurking in the shadows, just waiting to go even higher in the last 10 seconds? If you end your auctions early, YOU ARE THROWING AWAY MONEY. Look at "hopey" and "swmoretp", two sellers who have listed a large number of highly desirable games lately. They never end early, and they're making an absolute killing!

And don't listen to the argument about "avoiding high eBay fees". The truth is, for big-ticket items, eBay fees are not that expensive. A $150 close only costs you $4.75 in final value fees. The level of exposure eBay brings and the extra money you'll get from snipers are almost certainly worth that. Further, eBay offers some small recourse if the winner doesn't follow through, allowing you to leave a negative comment and get those FVF's back. And when you sell on eBay you know when your auction ends. When the clock runs out, it's over. Whereas if you're negotiating privately with several people, you can get counter-offers dragging out for weeks, and people not responding, and now the second-highest doesn't want it anymore... Save yourself the trouble. (God, I never thought I'd hear myself advocate selling on eBay, but there you have it.)

To the BIDDERS who engage in this practice:

You may get a game or two at a bargain price now, but in the long run, you are just going to end up hurting yourselves, and the hobby overall. Don't think for a second that you're the only one who's thought of doing this. Someone else is bound to have seen that auction too, and when it ends unexpectedly they are going to realize what happened, and they will contact the seller and make their own offer. You've got to understand that the people who sell their rare stuff are "normal". They aren't used to the swarm mentality of us collectors. When they get ten or twenty e-mails offering amounts they never would have dreamed of, it freaks them out. They wonder just what they have that's so valuable, and how high it might go, which only leads to wiser sellers and higher prices: "This guy is offerring $100 for one game? Wow, that's great! I think I'll check completeds, ask around, research prices in a lot more detail now that I know old games can be worth this much!" Before we know it, we've got twenty rare items up, every one of them with a reserve so high nobody wants to meet it, because the sellers have got it in their head that the game is always worth that much, and they won't settle for less.
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Old 16 March 2006, 19:31   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cebulba
What disapointed me the most is, that the guy who did it,is part of this board and a 400+ poster.
Errrr... and how do you know this and that that really happened? I know you're angry but blaiming people for something without proof is also not a nice gesture
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Old 16 March 2006, 19:55   #3
cebulba
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jrom
Errrr... and how do you know this and that that really happened? I know you're angry but blaiming people for something without proof is also not a nice gesture
I have proof. Seller's E-mail and he also send me the Ebay ID of the one he sold to - now that he realized he has been fooled.
We'll see if the guy is keen enough to say his thoughts...which I doubt.
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Old 16 March 2006, 20:09   #4
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Ah ok... tough luck then eh?
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Old 16 March 2006, 20:53   #5
spiff
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Quote:
Before we know it, we've got twenty rare items up, every one of them with a reserve so high nobody wants to meet it
So basically no matter how you do it the games will eventually sell for their market value, and sellers will benefit from it.

If no one wants to meet the reserve, games won’t sell.
If ppl do "auction interference" the seller will learn the true value, and not get f***d by collectors sniping.
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Old 16 March 2006, 21:09   #6
Bamiga2002
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I've seen this "auction interference" in action too, and it's not funny. People should respect the idea of auction in general so that the auctions go as-they-should-be. No cheatin' or playin'.
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Old 16 March 2006, 22:10   #7
Galahad/FLT
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bamiga2002
I've seen this "auction interference" in action too, and it's not funny. People should respect the idea of auction in general so that the auctions go as-they-should-be. No cheatin' or playin'.

thats all well and good, but I get fed up with auction snipers. My auctions typically run for three days, and mostly I don't get any action on them until the last 4 hours. I can't be doing with that kind of aggro.

I have done auction interference because I am not prepared to let something get away from me for the sake of a couple of pounds, you may not like it, but its a fact that it goes on, so if you want something bad enough, go do it yourself.

This is the real world, not Ebays 'fluffy' auction world. People are also getting sick and tired of Ebays rip off prices and their Final Value Fee, its no wonder people will accept offers from people when Ebay persists with their con pricing structure.
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Old 16 March 2006, 22:20   #8
Bamiga2002
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Galahad/FLT
This is the real world, not Ebays 'fluffy' auction world. People are also getting sick and tired of Ebays rip off prices and their Final Value Fee, its no wonder people will accept offers from people when Ebay persists with their con pricing structure.
I'm not familiar with Ebay, but the most known auction site in Finland is free of any charge . Maybe Ebay is not a fair comparison to it, and so i understand your opinion then.
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Old 16 March 2006, 22:35   #9
Mick_AKA
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I get so many people asking to end auctions early, it really pisses me off
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Old 16 March 2006, 22:50   #10
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Yep, imagine going to a real-life auction: you bid, then another one rises the bid etc. then the auctionist suddenly ends the auction before you counterbid. Hey, it wasn't supposed to go like that .
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Old 16 March 2006, 22:54   #11
BippyM
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Guys

It happens, you can't do anything about it.. get used to it. Pointless discussing it!
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Old 17 March 2006, 00:29   #12
cebulba
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Galahad/FLT
thats all well and good, but I get fed up with auction snipers. My auctions typically run for three days, and mostly I don't get any action on them until the last 4 hours. I can't be doing with that kind of aggro.
so where's the problem? You list your games for sale. And they sell - at least in the last 10 seconds. I don't see the problem...
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Old 17 March 2006, 12:20   #13
Galahad/FLT
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cebulba
so where's the problem? You list your games for sale. And they sell - at least in the last 10 seconds. I don't see the problem...

I sell cars, and I don't want them going for pennies/cents.

Of course I can put on a reserve, but thats counter productive, it doesn't encourage bidding.

Sniping is getting worse and worse and worse, which is why people are contacting the seller to see if they will sell if off ebay before auction end.
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Old 17 March 2006, 12:53   #14
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EBay should do what TradeMe does then - any bid adds 2 minutes to the final auction time.
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Old 17 March 2006, 12:57   #15
whiteb
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Codetapper
EBay should do what TradeMe does then - any bid adds 2 minutes to the final auction time.
Then the Snipe programs appear with Final Snipe time +2.

The way to stop that would be to make the Final Close time RANDOM.
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Old 17 March 2006, 13:00   #16
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My missus has contacted sellers to buy furniture items etc off e-bay in order to get under what that the buyer will accept.......But NON of you would complain about that.

Because this thread is over "Things you want" for a collection

BUT you don't NEED these items,they don't have purpose beyond filling an empty space on your list, when it becomes such an obsession that you object to the principle of "haggling over a price" it's time to take a step back.

Sure your really pissed at losing something....but polite auctions are geniunely a myth..I know in my earlier days I have many times witnessed "LOT xxxx" being withdrawn from an auction because a seller struck a private deal before bidding was due to open

I am quite sure Gallahad/FLT has had his fair share of car auction double dealing to know, you cannot play fair in trade

I do NOT believe you are naieve in these matters Cebulba but are angry & sad because these unsporting tactics have invaded 2nd hand Amiga games sales.

Now that I understand but as Bippym stated theres no point arguing over it.
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Old 17 March 2006, 13:02   #17
Anubis
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cebulba
I have proof. Seller's E-mail and he also send me the Ebay ID of the one he sold to - now that he realized he has been fooled.
We'll see if the guy is keen enough to say his thoughts...which I doubt.

*Goes and checks list of everyone with 400+ posts. You girls are nasty!


I always wondered why some amiga stuff desapierd after couple of hours. Thanks for explanation.
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Old 17 March 2006, 13:34   #18
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I'm sorry but this is yet another thread that follows the following:

1). It's completely pointless as you can't do anything about it
2). It's aimed at a forum member but cebulba hasn't said who (but siad forum member knows who they are and has/will bite) and cebulba knows this..
3). It is only a matter of time before it deteriorates into anothe slag-fest farce
4). Life's too short, Amiga is dead, Ebay is lame .. get over it or find another online auction site!

Thread closed before it turns nasty!
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Old 17 March 2006, 22:50   #19
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Thread re-opened at the request of the seller in question (wanting to defend his actions)

I will leave it open for the time being.. as soon as I see any more evidence of this going down the pan either myself or another mod will re-close it.
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Old 17 March 2006, 23:17   #20
dlfrsilver
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Hello, i'm sad about answer such a thread, which doesn't have anything to do on this
board. I have to clarify many points about this auction.

1) I'm fully against and i fight DAMN hard again peoples (mainly collectors), that artificially bump up the bids on ebay, plays speculators / money makers like Celbulba or some other German collectors do. I never saw french or english people act like this.
Every people deserve to win, even if they can't push 150-500 euros on 1 or 2 rare game. Just imagine that for 200 euros, i can have 43 games NEW and SEALED.
And in the lot, some VERY RARE. When speculators, because that's the name we give them, just come, snipe out at 10 sec from the end because themselves know that the bid is going really high, a way to stop the furious bidding scheme. Most sellers i know
are not driven by MONEY. CEBULBA, money can't buy everything.

2) Paying video games even very rare one more than 150 euros is a shame with human misery. No single video games are valued that high. We are not buying Louis XVI furnitures or anything like that. Finding Moonstone at more than 100 euros is what i call human stupidity. This game has sold normally in France and england, so what about the fucking price ?

3) Amiga is dead now as Bippym stated above, and i prefer losing ten games than losing my lovely girlfriend or my job. Stay in the real world.

4) The artificial prices stated above doesn't allow amiga fan people to bid.

5) Cebulba can't read french, i have kept the best for the end, he has been complaining for not having .... an ATARI ST game !!!!! on an AMIGA FORUM
the auction clearfully stated it's an atari ST version of Wizard WARZ.

6) Insulting the seller by telling him how dumb and stupid and well... he is, is certainly not the
best year's idea. To say the thruth Olivier is not motived by money, he is a F**cking bigger collector than you are, and he knows very well which game is rare or very rare, considering his own collection. I have met him in 2003, he has sold me the A1200 i own actually. I have seen in his home things incredible. Not every people share you 'money' ideas.... live with it !

7) Preservation ABOVE everything. I have a collector friend, who has more than +7000 games, who now is working hand in hand with me to preserve games. He never thought about this idea before....

Conclusion, friendship and human relations are more appreciated than pushing money alone.

Last edited by dlfrsilver; 17 March 2006 at 23:35.
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