How would you improve the EAB?

[Peanutuk]

We all know that the EAB is pretty much perfect as it is but there is always room for improvement. In this thread I would like anybody and everybody who has something to say, to state how they would like to see the EAB improved.

If you are a new member maybe you can discuss what is was like to join the forums and how the forum could make it easier for new members? Or if you're a seasoned looney maybe you could crayon in a message about how the EAB could cater for specific needs?

I'd just thought it would be nice for everyone to have their say. As such it would be nice if members allowed each other to voice their opinions openly, by all means state if you think an idea is good or bad - that's part of any discussion, but do not start personal arguments or attacks; anyone (and I mean anyone) doing this will have their post removed.

So, go on.....

[bippym]

I think newbies should be given more slack and not treated like shit regardless of how 'lame' they appear to be.. We were all newbies once!!

[Jan]

Way too many subforums!

[Akira]

Originally Posted by bippym

I think newbies should be given more slack and not treated like shit regardless of how 'lame' they appear to be.. We were all newbies once!!

Regarding this subject I have one thing to say:

newbie != lame

The latest "unregistered" antics have proved this correctly.

We were all newbies but sorry, I never posted stupid shit like that, and most of the ones here haven't.

[Peanutuk]

I think the general consensus is that new users aren't treated fairly and that steps should be taken to change this, this has been an issue for a long time

What actions would you take to make this better Bippy?

New users are treated fairly. New losers are not.

I don't see a problem with the board the way it is, in fact I think some are too nice sometimes

[alexh]

It might be cool if names of games that are used in messages automatically became links to HoL? I've seen a lot of websites have keyword links inserted automatically

[Marcuz]

well actually i think that just a couple of users treat roughly newcomers, but if you think about it, well in any forum you go asking lame stuff without doing any researh or read the faqs you are treated or threated even worse.
i'm more or less ok with the "Akira trademarked welcome to newbies"; look at this too: unregistered ppl asking for stuff get answered with no problem mostly; this is very polite of the board, their choice to get back and register or not. consider also that many people that have registered in the past year still can't use the search function properly and spread the same threads all over again... i'm more than fine then with the kind of welcome we have here: it's a right mediation to me.

on the other hand, i think that a air mail service of chocolate pudding towards my table may improve greatly the tone of this board.

[bippym]

Originally Posted by Peanutuk

I think the general consensus is that new users aren't treated fairly and that steps should be taken to change this, this has been an issue for a long time

What actions would you take to make this better Bippy?

Firstly guest posting should NOT be allowed, all users must register to post.

All new users are automatically taken to the FAQ on registration which they cannot bypass for say 1 minute (if possible) and the first line must read READ THESE RULES OR BE BANNED INSTANTLY

and then it should just outline some basic guidelines before shunting them into the forum.

New users are treated fairly. New losers are not.

I don't see a problem with the board the way it is, in fact I think some are too nice sometimes

Thats exactly the attitude I was talking about!

You cannot judge someone as a loser just because their first post seems lame to you or me or whoever!

What if the newbie never owned an Amiga?? they are gonna be baffled with the plethora of options winuae offers, what if all they ever did was own an a500 and only played games, there is a good chance they won't know the differences beween kick 1.3-kick3.1 or memory configs, never mind chipsets etc..

I think we should give users a chance to prove they are indeed lame over a few posts rather than jump on their case immediately!

well actually i think that just a couple of users treat roughly newcomers, but if you think about it, well in any forum you go asking lame stuff without doing any researh or read the faqs you are treated or threated even worse.

So its fine to be rude/harsh/nasty because other forums do it and are generally worse!

I'm sorry but thats plain wrong, maybe I am getting eaten up over nothing, but I don't see a lot of new users here.

consider also that many people that have registered in the past year still can't use the search function properly and spread the same threads all over again

Yes thats true, which is where moderators come in, and they explain politely that they should try the search function first, if then the user still can't find it then a moderator (or whoever) does the search, posts a link and then chastises them!

Imagine if you walked into an audio shop to buy a new stereo. Each stereo has a description of exactly what it can do next to the stereo but still you choose to ask a member of staff for assistance. The said member of staff proceeds to call you lame and he clearly states that the display explains exactly what the stereo can do.

Would you shop there?

Me neither!!!!!!

unregistered ppl asking for stuff get answered with no problem mostly; this is very polite of the board, their choice to get back and register or not.

This is true and is one of the finer points of this forum and should continue..

Its abvious there is a divide when it comes to this, but how I see it is simple..

Moderators are STAFF here, and should treat all customers with respect and fairness. The ONLY time mods should get nasty is if a user steps out of line to a degree where a caution / warning or banning is required and that's it.

Users should treat each other with respect and also fairness and if they have a problem with a user should report it to a moderator via PM and then the moderating team handles it from there.

[Peanutuk]

I stated a long time ago that new users should be redirected to the FAQ when registering. Even more I think that the main FAQ points should be emailed to them along with their registration information.

I remember when I first tried to emulate the Amiga and having a lot of trouble getting to grips with it even though I had been using the real thing for nearly a decade. FAQ's are useful but it isn't always obvious whether they address a particular concern especailly if you don't know what the problem is in the first place.

The use of a buddy system where a new user can be given the PM details of an experienced member of 'staff' to ask any obvious or potentially irratating questions might be useful. I wouldnt mind helping out in this way if it means that new users are treated more fairly in the eyes of the wider community, for without them there won't be a community for very much longer.

[bippym]

Well Mr P Nut we seem to be on the same page here

Bippy. You seem to be confused about my opinion.

When I say a stupid person I am not talking about their Amiga skills. I don't even care if they don't know what an Amiga is. But you'd expect anyone with half a brain to at least read some of the FAQ, work out in what sections to post requests and provide as much details as possible in the event of a problem. It's common sense, not PC skills, Windows skills or Amiga skills.

I think the only real solution is to lockdown the board so nobody new can register

[Peanutuk]

Originally Posted by Jim

I think the only real solution is to lockdown the board so nobody new can register

That, in effect, is already happening isn't it?

If the actions I mention above are taken then yes, a person would have to be 'stupid' or just deliberately making no effort to violate those rules. However, as it seems that just about every new user crosses some kind of line it would be responsible of us to make it as easy as possible to get along.

I also think that poor use of English can make a user seem rude or overly demanding (I think this may have been what has happended recently), again some tolerance here wouldn't go amiss. Maybe a point in the FAQ that the EAB uses normal English and not 5pa5t1c language.

[Freckle]

Well, as a relative newcomer compared to some of the old-timers here I can relate to the rather overbearing way in which some members are quick to jump on you at the slightest mistake. For the few that stick it out and dare to return you soon learn that some people just have this way of communicating as part of their natural temperament, and hopefully it is not personal to you, but this is hardly apparent at the very beginning, and I think this would be a much bigger and more successful forum if people didn’t feel they needed to prove themselves quite so thoroughly – this is not a Masonic lodge.



Also, it seems to be a rule that you can have and express your personal opinion, but you have to be prepared to be called all sorts of names for having that opinion, or get told that your opinions are a load of f****** ***** *** ******* ****** if they differ in anyway from some of the more vocal users. Basically, sometimes there is often little or no need for the rude and insulting way that some people post. If I say that I like something, I don’t expect people to necessarily agree with me, but having someone tell me why they don’t particularly like that same thing is better than being told nothing more constructive than that they think it is a ‘f***king piece of s**t’ – If I wanted to talk to someone who can only express themselves with no-point profanities I’d go and shout ‘burberry is crap’ at the bunch of 14 year olds outside the Spa…

[bippym]

@Jim: Just because somebody types or writes like they are stupid doesn't give you or any other user the right to criticise them!

Not everbody has the same intellect or education!

I have a cousin who is as thick as pig shit, he can't read very well, his writing, spelling, grammar and punctuation not to mention his sentence structure and his use of certain words is extremely poor and limited. I wouldn't ridicule him because of it, it's not his fault and try as he might it isn't something he can easily fix!

He can also be offensive, rude and damn nasty if you offend him or take the piss, he uses a lot of foul language in his arguments.. why? because thats how he was brought up, he never had the education or upbringing most normal kids have, all he knows is what he learnt as a kid. This guy is 25 now and he is a really nice person..

What gives you the right to judge somebody you know nothing about other than how they have managed to put a few sentences together?

[Akira]

Originally Posted by bippym

Firstly guest posting should NOT be allowed, all users must register to post.

Right on, poeple talk about not being elitist and shit, and you think it's better close the PROBLEMS section (the ONLY one open to guest posting besides News, which is moderated). I don't think so. I don't see any fault in guest opsting in the Problems section, I also have seen many cases of unregged posters getting their problems solved and registering because they were happy with the reaction. This is a GOOD board, I don't understand all this whining

READ THESE RULES OR BE BANNED INSTANTLY

How do you think you can recognize if they read it or not?
If someone posts a message like this:
http://eab.abime.net/showthread.php?t=16817
Should I ban him imemdiately? I can notice he read fuck all.
Then we talk about giving newbies a chance? We do this with instant banning?

I'm sorry but thats plain wrong, maybe I am getting eaten up over nothing, but I don't see a lot of new users here.

Lots of people like to register just to lurk. Wanna force them to post? Go to Lameon64, how many of the registered post regularly? Not more than here, comparatively, I bet. This is the same in every forum.

if then the user still can't find it then a moderator (or whoever) does the search, posts a link and then chastises them!

I'm afraid I can't agree with this. My duty here does not include doing the work for some idiot who can't press a couple of buttons and initiate a search query. Feel free to do so but I don't thikn this does any good but encourage people's laziness and lack of interest in getting their own answers and education. Feed them in the mouth.

Imagine if you walked into an audio shop to buy a new stereo. Each stereo has a description of exactly what it can do next to the stereo but still you choose to ask a member of staff for assistance. The said member of staff proceeds to call you lame and he clearly states that the display explains exactly what the stereo can do.

Sory bipps, but if the stereo is clearly described in a sign next to them, what sort of assistance are you asking for? I can see two possibilities here:
If you say to the guy "I read all the specs but I'm yet undecided as to which one to pick, can you recommend me some? I'll be using it for 'X' purpose" the guy will be more than willing to help. Maybe you ask him "I read the specs but I have no clue what PMPO is, can you tell me?" This, again, would be a good question that is right-on newbie but more than acceptable.

However if you ask the guy "Excuse me, can you tell me what are the specs for this stereo?" he is in all his right to think you are lame , because you are, since the stereo is -thoroughly- described besides it (according to your example description). However he can't tell you to fuck off because that is his JOB and he needs the money to feed him and his family maybe, so he's not going to risk getting sacked for a moron. He probably tells you you are a lamer in a polite way, or maybe he's too indulgent to do so. His reaction would not be the same as the one of a mod in a forum. This ain't no shop and these ain't our jobs

Originally Posted by Peanutuk

I also think that poor use of English can make a user seem rude or overly demanding (I think this may have been what has happended recently)

No, there are people who just don't have a good grasp of the english language because they probably are not native english speakers or whatever, however I still see them trying to post politely and get their point across as much as possible within their limited english possibilities

This post (again):
http://eab.abime.net/showthread.php?t=16817
Is NOT an example of this.

Originally Posted by bippym

I wouldn't ridicule him because of it, it's not his fault and try as he might it isn't something he can easily fix!

I beg to strongly disagree here, if the guy does not have the will to improve on this or any other area, it is -his own damn fault-, moreso when you say he's 25! Just because you didn't get the correct education when young, doesn't mean you can't pursue a much better education when growing up. Lots of people are an example of this.

[Peanutuk]

So Akira, in a sentence, do you think there is a problem or not?


Perhaps it would be useful if RCK or Cody could comment? Or anyone else who has a relevant opinion - make your voices heard!

Regardless, enough people have stated that they think there is a problem which is making them unhappy, their unhappiness is therefore a problem. So how is this going to be dealt with?

Or isn't it?!

[Codetapper]

My 2c: Too many newbies come on here, don't read the FAQ, don't register, then ask really stupid questions answered in the FAQ's. I think EAB members are far too kind to these people by uploading games and replying to them wastes everyones time. It just fills up the EAB with useless threads.

- I think people should be forced to register to post.

- On the "Do you want to register" page you could have a "how to find games" link at the top which goes to the FAQ - that might eliminate these pests from even needing to join when they will just ask for games and never come back.

- All posts where the person has requested a game without some kind of "I've tried these places from the FAQ and can't find it/it's down/my IP is blocked" etc should just be deleted. Save RCK's disk space!

[Peanutuk]

It makes sense to make people register, this isn't an elitist issues, it is simply polite; you wouldn't start a conversation with someone without introducing yourself. Secondly it would force them to read the FAQ if the FAQ was provided for them as above. There's nothing wrong with going out of your way to help people if they make the effort to ask in an informed way; the FAQ will inform them.

Originally Posted by bippym

@Jim: Just because somebody types or writes like they are stupid doesn't give you or any other user the right to criticise them!

Not everbody has the same intellect or education!

I have a cousin who is as thick as pig shit, he can't read very well, his writing, spelling, grammar and punctuation not to mention his sentence structure and his use of certain words is extremely poor and limited. I wouldn't ridicule him because of it, it's not his fault and try as he might it isn't something he can easily fix!

He can also be offensive, rude and damn nasty if you offend him or take the piss, he uses a lot of foul language in his arguments.. why? because thats how he was brought up, he never had the education or upbringing most normal kids have, all he knows is what he learnt as a kid. This guy is 25 now and he is a really nice person..

What gives you the right to judge somebody you know nothing about other than how they have managed to put a few sentences together?

Stupidity is not an excuse for laziness.

I don't care how f**king stupid someone is - they should have at least had a look at the FAQ or realised simply posting "Dizzy don't work. Help." was not adequate.

It's not all about the spelling as much as it's not all about the knowledge they have.

It's about laziness. Combine this with bad spelling and you possibly have the root cause of the bad spelling.

But then this is getting like society now. Nobody is responsible for the way they are these days. Always blame somebody else. If that fails just blame the system.

I like CodeTapper's delete post idea, which is why I did originally write about a (f)lame section for where posts get moved to.

If you just delete a post you know the person is going to write another one saying "Oi what happen my post". Move it to the (f)lame section and at least everyone see's what's happened.

[Akira]

Fact is, GUEST posting is only allowed in the PROBLEMS section. This place is NOT for requesting games. From time to time some sod comes and requests a game and leaves his email address in the problems forum, just to see if he can get away with it. These people never come back, obv. I always delete these posts.

Second, deleting the lame request posts straight away might not be the solution since it will bring a hoard of whiners into the subject. I know it would be simpler (god knows we've got to clean up the requests section, for it's full of shit. But it's not that easy! once a request thread has developed into something else!), but there's always someone you will piss off with such an action, so what to do?


I don't see there is a problem, except for the whining of a few people about how supposedly rude we are, which I strongly disagree with. As Codetapper says, I think the EAB people is way too good to all people, even those making lame requests, demands or problem posts.

Before the Fantastic Dizzy thread, when was the last time you saw a reply like jim's ?

[Akira]

Originally Posted by Jim

I like CodeTapper's delete post idea, which is why I did originally write about a (f)lame section for where posts get moved to.

If you just delete a post you know the person is going to write another one saying "Oi what happen my post". Move it to the (f)lame section and at least everyone see's what's happened.

It just doesn't work either. People will say "why did you move the post? It is unfair!"

How I see it, me as a mod, can't have a go at this sort of things. I mean there's always someone who will complain about my judgement, disagree with it. What I think has to happen is self regulation of the content in the place, and polite and angry replies to a post are what construct the way the content appears, I think. In the aforementioned Fantastic Dizzy thread, after the replies, the guy registerd and showed his true colors. We know how to act from now on regarding him. This happened naturally, and I'm glad a rotting fruit has been foun so we don't eat it. It's auto-policing, this needs no mods.

[fisken uno]

I've NEVER found the people of EAB to be rude! Not when I was a n00b, and not now (though I'm not here as often anymore and rarely post). There have been a few people that I've found rude now and then (I've been one of them at times ), but all in all I'd rather say that especially the mods are too nice at times. I mean, seriously if people don't read the FAQ and/or use common sense there's no reason why you should put up with their stupid shit. I don't find EAB even remotely as elitist as most of the boards I've been to.

[Peanutuk]

Originally Posted by Akira

..the guy registerd and showed his true colors. We know how to act from now on regarding him. This happened naturally, and I'm glad a rotting fruit has been foun so we don't eat it. It's auto-policing, this needs no mods.

Did he really show his true colours or did he react to an extremely rude and unhelpful response? If so, that reaction is at least partly responsible for his future response, or would you condemn someone who hits back when he is attacked a violent person? Showing his true colours and all!

As Freckle seems to be the newest member to post in this thread maybe she can say why there was such a delay inbetween her first and future posts?

The question - it seems we need reminding - is whether the EAB could make it easier for new users to enter the fold, it isn't about elitism or moderation.


Does anybody have any other concerns? Let's hear them.

[Marcuz]

BippyM i understand your points but i don't agree, i think you are forcing exemples and stretching metaphores a bit too much. i mean, not a problem if it is useful for you to explain a broad casistic, but i don't agree that the behaviour on newcomers is bad, when i mean that it's better than many other forums, i mean it, it's largely ok. it doesnt need to be better, why? internet is just a meeting place for ideas it is not the place where The Truth is nicely and politely provided. i like it rough. in no point of what i've said i've suggested elitism or the like, but i'm strongly against guide lept by lept ppl (anywhere), where would it be the feat of manage and arrange what does surround you if everything would be so easily provided? obviously i digress.

so in a sentence: the behaviour on newbies is ok to me.

[Marcuz]

Originally Posted by Peanutuk

As Freckle seems to be the newest member to post in this thread maybe she can say why there was such a delay inbetween her first and future posts?

because she shut the freck up? no no i'm kiddin

[CodyJarrett]

I also agree that there is a lack of tolerance towards some new users. A recent request for some for hard-to-find/uncommon games also got a standard read-the-FAQ response as the mod replying didn't even bother to read the request properly.

There are of course new members that have an appalling grasp of grammar and spelling or that haven't bothered to read FAQs. Nothing is going to stop this! Being rude to one doesn't help and just leaves an unfriendly thread on the EAB.

[Freckle]

Originally Posted by Peanutuk

As Freckle seems to be the newest member to post in this thread maybe she can say why there was such a delay inbetween her first and future posts?

OK.

When I first started I, like many new people, asked a couple of questions. They weren't obvious questions, so you can't accuse me of not reading the FAQs. I read all of the posting rules, introduced myself and made my posts and I found people to be very helpful and welcoming, but it was automatically assumed that once I had found the information that I was looking for that I would disappear, never to be heard of again. Some people were unnecessarilyrude, naming me a 'noob' who was just there for help and then would f*** off and never be heard of again. Unfortunately this turns into a self-fulfilling prophecy - why exactly would I want to come back after that?!

Generally I think it is a great place here, though I do feel like it is just easier to withold my actual opinions sometimes when I shouldn't have to, because sometimes peoples' responses can be unnecessarily rude (and I am not "whining" about this, just doing what I should be entitled to do, and expressing my opinion, which I appear to be able to do without name calling and a string of expletives).

Easy solution (TM)

This applies to the following threads when a member creates a new post:

prb.WinUAE
prb.OtherUAE
prb.WinFellow
prb.Hardware
prb.Games
prb.Demos
prb.Apps

req.Old Rare Games
req.Demos
req.Apps
req.Modules

The below only applies if the members post count is < 50 (to stop it annoying people who have been here long enough not to have any excuses).

When creating a new prb. post the member is first presented with the following which they have to tick to agree to:

"Have you read the FAQ? Have you searched the board for a solution? Are you going to provide full details?"

When creating a new req. post the member is presented with this instead:

"Have you read the FAQ? Are you sure this is a valid request?"

This way any member who ticks these boxes and then proceeds to make a lame request is a legitimate target for "member correction" (flaming).

After ticking the box and hitting OK they are then able to write a post as usual.

[Shoonay]

Yeah... i know... my very first post was a "having all those rights as a Amiga user, i dare you to gimme, gimme those phuckin' games " request...

But i never felt like anyone even literally named me a 'noob'.
Yeah, i know it's either 'they' had a "god bless those stupid/dumm/ignorant/phuckeen noobs" day, or i didn't understand what they were saing (yuoo talkeen too mee? ) since my lack of english... knowledge about english... ...geez here it goes again ...

[Dastardly]

Im with Bippy, Peanut, Freckle and Cody here.

Almost everything I have to say on the subject has already been said.

Its time we had more tolerance and less arrogance here at EAB. Some 'members' have become far too comfortable and seem to consider it their right to attack newbies just because they have been here for a while.

Its pathetic.

We need less trolling for sure.

[Akira]

Originally Posted by Peanutuk

Did he really show his true colours or did he react to an extremely rude and unhelpful response?

Come on, with this in mind one could justify anyone, even Adolf Hitler.

Originally Posted by CodyJarrett

A recent request for some for hard-to-find/uncommon games also got a standard read-the-FAQ response as the mod replying didn't even bother to read the request properly.

Why don't you post a link to the thread and say I did it? Be direct.
I don't see a standard "read the FAQ" response to be rude. Why is this? I never understood it, it's over-reaction from your part. The thread you mention about did not get a standard "read the FAQ" response by the way, it was a bit tongue-in-cheek.

Originally Posted by Jim

Easy solution (TM)
[...]
After ticking the box and hitting OK they are then able to write a post as usual.

Not really easy. I wouldn't define as "easy" to mess up wih the vBulletin code to add this functionality, and I can't see RCK being arsed to do so snce he's got other things he's working on ATM.

[CodyJarrett]

Originally Posted by Akira

Why don't you post a link to the thread and say I did it? Be direct.
I don't see a standard "read the FAQ" response to be rude. Why is this? I never understood it, it's over-reaction from your part. The thread you mention about did not get a standard "read the FAQ" response by the way, it was a bit tongue-in-cheek.

As I was using it as an example of a general problem rather than trying to point fingers. I'd need a whole separate thread to cover you, Akira!

[Akira]

Originally Posted by CodyJarrett

As I was using it as an example of a general problem rather than trying to point fingers. I'd need a whole separate thread to cover you, Akira!

Thanks for a second attack, I apreciate it. By the way you STILL do not explain how a standard "read the FAQ" reply is offensive, agressive or whatever other amusing adjecive is in your mind regarding it.

[CodyJarrett]

I guess the adjective "careless" would suit the example I gave.

[Akira]

To me, not feeding people in the mouth with a normal answer is caring about them. We're not talking about explaining Einstein's relativity laws, we're talking about something one can easily find and utilize with two grams of effort. You like to encourage laziness. Your call.

By the way we're talking about a normal "read the faq reply", not the one you pointed at which, as I said, was not normal.

[bippym]

Why not when a user registers and the first email is sent that they reply to is sent, why not include the URL to the sites with adf's on them BEFORE the link for site activation.

@Akira & CodyJarret.

That's it. You 2 mods show us lesser members how to get along

Now on another note:

I'm getting just as sick of all of Bippy's hold the newbies cock while he takes a piss answers as I am with the newbies who don't read the FAQs themselves. Don't people realise the more you make things too easy for a newbie the more likely they are to ignore rules, common sense and not think for themselves? Thus more likely to post something lame.

Dastardly is only in here having a dig at me because he hasn't got Parallax Scroll to fight with.

I suggest Bippy, Peanut, Datardly, Cody and whoever else has their own eab.kindergarden section where they moderate and look after all the newbie babes. They can go off to other threads making requests on behalf of them etc... etc...

[Fred the Fop]

EAB has become to damn bloated. RCk, it really is the best gaming forum around, or amoungst the best.
But it is too unweildly and unintuitive. Far too many sub forums.
Pare it down.
Sleek Mac style, less big PC style.