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Old 01 September 2007, 12:48   #61
Marcuz
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i think you are right saying about the expectancies for the new games, other then them being prolly inferior as for their capacity to excite your own imagination, it's also true that a person who played these games years ago now has grown (for better or worse)...

if i'd play for the first time Perihelio now, i would find it surely more difficult to get into it, than once upon a time, and Perihelion was probably the most easy game to fit in with gameplay than any rpg i played as a kid... what about the goldbox now would be! i know that the last month i tryed to play Champions of Krynn from scratch but i lost patience half way through the character creation! and i loved those games!
time changed my aspectations about interfaces and games prolly...
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Old 02 September 2007, 04:18   #62
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Yeah, so the gamers' expectations extend/expand but the industry suffers from retardation. Anyway, this was addressed in another thread...

As good as Dungeon Master and Eye of the Beholder were for their time, a present playthrough of them would knock my sanity for six. They would seem old, ugly and slow. I believe Fallout and Baldur's Gate really evolved RPGs (in their respective settings), but that in turn they were not evolved, shrug.

So... what I'm saying is, the new RPGs might have better graphics, but mechanically they are much less advanced, whereas Baldur's Gate is _in every way_ more advanced than, say, Champions of Krynn. That might be why your attempted replay of that game failed in character creation...

Yet, you could replay Baldur's Gate easily, even after Neverwinter Nights 2, yes? I certainly could (and did), and that gaping gap = one decade in game development.
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Old 02 September 2007, 12:08   #63
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I cant ever name just one favourite so here are a few in no particular order.

1: Captive
2: Might & Magic 3
3: Evils Doom
4: Dungeon Master 2
5: Ambermoon
6: Perihelion

Well maybe it wasnt a few it was 6
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Old 02 September 2007, 13:34   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oneshotdead View Post
Yeah, so the gamers' expectations extend/expand but the industry suffers from retardation. Anyway, this was addressed in another thread...

As good as Dungeon Master and Eye of the Beholder were for their time, a present playthrough of them would knock my sanity for six. They would seem old, ugly and slow. I believe Fallout and Baldur's Gate really evolved RPGs (in their respective settings), but that in turn they were not evolved, shrug.

So... what I'm saying is, the new RPGs might have better graphics, but mechanically they are much less advanced, whereas Baldur's Gate is _in every way_ more advanced than, say, Champions of Krynn. That might be why your attempted replay of that game failed in character creation...

Yet, you could replay Baldur's Gate easily, even after Neverwinter Nights 2, yes? I certainly could (and did), and that gaping gap = one decade in game development.
i believe that the barriers in any game, no matter the age are of 3 kinds: interfaces, game mechanics and "feeling of effective interaction" factor.

1) while the first, interfaces, are the sacred Graal of current designing, and there are exemples of current solutions as different as they can be, with various degree of success, in the days of the gold box serie they were often improvised.

even if sometimes there was the odd great solution, that happened more easily in a different game genre, like arcade: rpg and strategy games struggled in that aspect.

what was in opposition more immediate than now was the computer interface: there was then less obstacle between the user and a session of let's say Death Knights of Krynn in comparison to the curent user and a session of Neverwinter Nights; the amiga was as easier as a console on that aspect.

this is important because it made easier to build up the will and courage to engage an already difficult interface to embrace the goal of a satisfactory game experience.


2) game mechanics instead can be very sophisticated now as they were even 20 years ago, but as part of it stay behind the screen, usually the less interesting mathematical part, and part of it is what charmes the player, that was never a barrier for the person who wanted be introduced in that game: a player interested in rpg will take and enjoy his time browsing through the manual of neverwinter nights or fallout as he was with the manual of eye of teh beholder!

what the designer must do is make the read as enjoyable and comprehensible as possible.
the same game mechanic is an unpassable barrier for the player not interested in the genre!


3) "feeling of interaction" is the most subtle and yet the most important problem to solve.

there are games that, no matter the application of the gamer, simply give little to none feeling of being factual, cause action and receive a reaction during the play. it's mighty frustrating, yet it happens.
also a unnerving difficulty of the overall game, such as being killed by the first monster you encounter almost instantly and everytime falls under this aspect.

i had this feeling in Abandoned Places, due also to a bad (for me) interface, that leaded me to abandon the game, as it suits its name.
Profezia was another game as such: beautiful visually and with an easy interface, but the whole story turns are undifferent one from another, so that most of decisions are based on chance, you could play the game by flip a coin at every turn!

partly also the wonderful game Journey suffers the same wound.
This aspect is more cured in current games, when the budget is so that the company can spend a lot of production time on designer, but that's not needed everytime.
It should be easier to blame bad designin when this important parameter is not meet.
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Old 03 September 2007, 03:47   #65
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Apart from the so-called "golden age", there was definitely a sweet spot in computer RPGs from like 1997-02. Very advanced concepts, storylines, dialogue... hard-boiled, as I expressed before.

Now it seems like interface, mechanics and interaction have degenerated. I can cite innumerable examples of this phenomena in numerous games... but it annoys me to elaborate. I think you understand, anyway...

The biggest barrier for me in present RPGs is their reduction in complexity on all levels, except visually. All these "lawful good, busy-body princess" games with no choices, no consequences, are just pathetic. This is the reason I returned to PBeM gaming... But to my dismay, even traditional tabletop RP systems like D&D (4e is coming soon...) seem to be pandering to the broadest of demographics, resulting in almost meaningless, flavourless gaming.

This is called alienation.

The solution? Remain with the older systems and houserule them, since they are inherently superior, conceptually/thematically. It is impossible to hand over hard earnings for complete crap on a stick, and crap is no longer the exception, but the rule...
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Old 03 September 2007, 04:09   #66
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Taking this a little side step a moment. I used to paper-play Vampire the Masquerade (VtM) and then I found on the PC (quite an old game now) VtM: Redemtion... its not to bad an interface... very true the PPD system. the campaign was a little sided to only go one way but the REAL thing that interested me was the Very VERY Powerfull Campaign Creator...


The Campaign Creator allowed allowed for upto 8 players... and you can have the GM setup and actualy ACT as an NPC during any time of the game even create your own sound dialouge for them and have players down-load them... its quite powerfull... it can limmit player abilities at certain times as the GM wished.... Infact i was more impressed with the creator than i was with the original campaign..

the only short fall was the fact there was NO map editor, not that it was an over all problem there were so many maps, items and artifacts from medevil times to present day... from swords to shotguns to choose from it was quite impressive, but that was missing a personall touch me thinks.

There was a bit of a cult following of the game in the end and some group ended up releasing a map and item editor for the game... if i remember correctly it as pretty good!

if you guys love the ROLE in ROLE playing then VtM: The Masqurade i felt was a damn good one, i would hazzard to say that its the best system I have seen translated on a PC atleast.... (not the campaign though... thats limmited)
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Old 03 September 2007, 11:09   #67
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Zetr0... I never played Redemption .. but can the campaign creator allow what NWN Aurora cannot? ... (see below)

I only ever played "Vampire: The Masquerade Bloodlines" which, incidentally, was developed by the same people who developed Fallout. Unfortunately, the emphasis placed on one kind of undead is just too limiting... In D&D vampires are just one of many undead archetypes, undead just one of many evil powers, and they are rare... yes, this isn't D&D, but still... too much "goth" for me, shrug..

Likewise, their "Arcanum: Of Steamworks and Magick Obscura" was quite advanced (from swords to shotguns as well, also had editor). It was steampunk, like industrial revolution vs. ancient magic, dwarves vs. elves cliche, but overall the conception was full of light. It has all the hallmarks of Fallout, except combat which was disappointing to say the least, no tactics at all:: when you can amass boatloads of experience by killing things, and are rewarded with minor experience gain when solving involved dialogue quests, most players become meatgrinders... (i.e., randomly travel map awaiting inevitable confrontation, carve up creatures and loot corpses, rinse /repeat). And infliction of damage/healing/buffs etc., is represented in feedback as vague "energy bars", not _equations and their results_(very important to traditional RPGs). This game is like the gorgeous girl with a slashing scar straight across her face.

"Temple of Elemental Evil" is yet another of their games, based on the original, legendary Gygax module. Such... potential...Excellent implementation of core rules, but broken combat and non-replayable storyline... Almost every battle was resolved in the same manner, and controversial parts were removed due to minority sensitivities, whatever. Hugely, hugely disappointing like a ballet dancer confined to a wheelchair...

Like Redemption, all these games are cult-level and have various mods, making them more playable. The problem with modding is that it can only go so far. There is only so much you can do with an engine before you see things are hardcoded, then it becomes easier to simply make your own game... (attempts at full overhauls of games get dumped all the time.)

It's even the same with Neverwinter Nights, which offers the Aurora toolset... very powerful. But unless you're so dedicated and have so much spare time as to craft and animate your own models, paint your own textures, edit the interface, create unique items from scratch, code decent scripts, record unique sounds etc., regardless of how engaging your storyline is, the game is just going to look and feel almost identical to the detestable original campaign by the developers... and that engine is sooo limiting compared to pen-n-paper as to be disgraceful. Rogue cannot climb in a 3D game? Cemented to floor/ground w/ wings? No swimming, no jumping? Archer cannot aim for aerial target? Oh, there are none! _Result of equation too low, so just repeat mechanic until success_? Behold, the offensive caricature of D&D...

Such things remind one instantly this is an unintuitive, crippled, mentally retarded computer game, sorely lacking the genuine abstract/escapist experience pen-n-paper tidily provides, causing the reflexive reach for the bookshelf upon which the _real_ RPGs are stacked...
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Old 03 September 2007, 11:26   #68
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Dungeon Master and Eye of the Beholder for me.
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Old 03 September 2007, 12:01   #69
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@oneshotdead

realistically we are attempting to pindown all possible creation and imagination in one area for a computer to handle... personally i dont think its possible... you might get a fleeting aproximation at best but true hard-core PPD experience i seriously doubt!.

I see computers more so can provide TOOLS from asiting with environments for battles and perhaps heloing with complicated rolls but keeping the ROLE out of it.... I used to use my miggy as a role-play assistent, had sounds to play on a keypress with a companion dark sounding audio CD in the back ground when it was my turn to GM... atmosphere is everything!

I would use my miggy to build character sheets and write scenarios / plots etc... but this is really where for me... the computer reaches it apitimy for use die-hard ROLE-PLAYERS!

VtM:Bloodlined was an ABSOLUTE bag of SHITE and should never EVER of been relased.... absolute bollocks in my mind...

just an idea...
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Old 03 September 2007, 12:03   #70
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Oneshotdead: thank you for remind me Temple of Elemental Evil; having not played it on pen and paper before, i have to admit that that game was the single best role game experience i had in the last 10 years probably.

it had many shortcomings: experience advancing system, all was very maybe a little too much fixed with too few interesting random encounters and the end comes too fast, the Elemental Nodes are not really interesting... but the start of the game, the plot (the rendition on pc of the original plot) and the scripted combats were great!
i remember still the first time i encountered the giant frogs that leaped out of a quiet stream when i was approaching the moathouse! and the character animations when grappled! too cool that only...

that game, even flawed, is what it could have been the horribly maimed Pool of Radiance (the PC 2000' game)

speaking of plot and chooices also The Bard's Tale (dubbed by Cary Elwes) was quite good, just not exactly an rpg...
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Old 03 September 2007, 18:38   #71
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Zetr0 wrote:

Quote:
realistically we are attempting to pindown all possible creation and imagination in one area for a computer to handle... personally i dont think its possible... you might get a fleeting aproximation at best but true hard-core PPD experience i seriously doubt!.
I agree, computers use pre-scripted scenarios and for that reason cannot compete with human GMs. I was just expressing that, as far as approximations go, Fallout comes closest to simulating the hardcore pen-n-paper game. Arcanum is a strange mix of, well, everything! but it succeeds overall. Until indies start dominating, these two RPGs will never be exceeded in nuance, IMO.

The other games are essentially parodies of pen-n-paper, since they shatter my suspension of disbelief in one way or another.

Quote:
I see computers more so can provide TOOLS from asiting with environments for battles and perhaps heloing with complicated rolls but keeping the ROLE out of it.... I used to use my miggy as a role-play assistent, had sounds to play on a keypress with a companion dark sounding audio CD in the back ground when it was my turn to GM... atmosphere is everything!

I would use my miggy to build character sheets and write scenarios / plots etc... but this is really where for me... the computer reaches it apitimy for use die-hard ROLE-PLAYERS!
Same here. As DM, I used my Amiga to draw up maps and to write up plots, character backgrounds etc. for my campaign. Yeah, it was a great aid to roleplaying! Our _old_ DM never allowed visual aids (like miniatures) or any music/sound effects..and being a mathematician, he never needed a computer. Rocksolid gaming sessions...

marco pedrana wrote:

Quote:
thank you for remind me Temple of Elemental Evil; having not played it on pen and paper before, i have to admit that that game was the single best role game experience i had in the last 10 years probably.
I liked that combat was not realtime, but turnbased like pen-n-paper. But I was really amped up for it, so it was a major letdown.

Quote:
the horribly maimed Pool of Radiance (the PC 2000' game)
You mean "Ruins of Myth Drannor"? Oh, dear... that game was sooo dead to me. I wish you didn't mention it...

Quote:
speaking of plot and chooices also The Bard's Tale (dubbed by Cary Elwes) was quite good, just not exactly an rpg...
If you want great plot, try "Planescape: Torment". Combat is shallow, but characters/storyline = deeeeeep. I played this game for 15 hours non-stop... people who say their jRPGs have great stories, generally have not played this.
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Old 03 September 2007, 18:59   #72
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I hate these games... but I'll pick The Faery Tale Adventure.
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Old 03 September 2007, 19:00   #73
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guys was Blade any good?
and i forgot to mention Elvira: that was a great adventure...
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Old 03 September 2007, 19:20   #74
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I love Ishar serie. I don't know why. I just love it. I am also fond of Perihelion but it is too linear and the gameplay after some time is just too easy. Nevertheless, you just play to see the graphics, hear the music and feel the atmosphere. Black Crypt also drew my attention more than any other RPG game.

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Old 03 September 2007, 19:28   #75
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Black Crypt
Dungeon Master
Eye of the Beholder II
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Old 03 September 2007, 19:53   #76
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Legend & World of Legend

EOTB 1+2

Quest for glory

Bloodwych

Knightmare
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Old 03 September 2007, 20:12   #77
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i was never even able to understand Knightmare...

i would like to retry it and Bloodwych, that i put down after few try and start Quest for Glory, Dragon Wars and Legend.

Dungeon Master i do not like;

like Mailman i love the Ishar serie, Perihelion and Black Crypt.
Eye of the Beholder i could even play without look at the screen...
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Old 03 September 2007, 20:17   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dizzy View Post
Legend & World of Legend

EOTB 1+2

Quest for glory

Bloodwych

Knightmare
I even got original Legend and World of Legend .. but for PC, i remember that Legend for Amiga what i got was always faulty version, years ago was just for me impossible to find working copy, i just go inside some dungeon and gfx was borked, stuff displaced
Besides Legend music is similar to one from Conan or my memory is faulty :P
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Old 03 September 2007, 20:18   #79
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I agree with you on Dungeon master never like it (or chaos strikes back )

Ishar is nice but not among my favourite.

I remember playing knightmare with my brother. One controlled the walking the other controlled the fighting

Bloodwych is so cool
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Old 03 September 2007, 20:20   #80
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I even got original Legend and World of Legend .. but for PC, i remember that Legend for Amiga what i got was always faulty version, years ago was just for me impossible to find working copy, i just go inside some dungeon and gfx was borked, stuff displaced
Besides Legend music is similar to one from Conan or my memory is faulty :P
I only got Legend as original (for Amiga) and it work fine (well last time I used it a few years ago)
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