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Old 01 November 2004, 12:17   #1
synchro
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My Amiga Rant !!!

Ok guys just something i want to get off my chest.

This is aimed at Amiga train spotters as i call them ( totally against homebrew stuff for the community )

Heres my theory

A long time ago in a galaxy far far away the Amiga was born and it was the best thing since sliced bread. For years we invested our hard earned cash into this machine and supported it through thick and thin.

Then one day the Amiga died not through evolution like the C64 but through the internal workings of its own company. We were left with hundreds of pounds worth of equipment with a new value of about 40 to 50.

All was not lost!!! As the PC grew from a 4 colour word processor to the games machine it is today ( again probably thanks to the Amiga's downfall ) UAE was created and Emulation gave us new hopes as we thought..... Ha!! Ha!!.....Amiga isnt dead....I can play all my old games again and do so much more
Thankfully Pirates ( yes Pirates ) converted games to ADF and uploaded them to the internet in fact its pretty fair to say they saved the Amiga and kept the interest going making it into the community it is today.

NOW!!!! I love the Amiga in fact i still have two A500's and a A1200 which i use on a regular basis but ask yourself this !!! What happens when they finally die ???

1...Who can i contact
2...Where can i get amiga hardware support
3...Where can i buy a new one
4...Who is producing new games

My theory is in 10 to 15 years emulation will be all thats left. Roms will be legal and People will look back and think thank god some people kept it all alive. One thing is for sure and that is this community will be ten times the size !!!
So when some ANORACK says to me ...." You can use your DVD as long as your Amiga is turned off at the time ".... FFS !!! How sad does that sound and of course we all do that when emulating dont we......QUICK TURN OFF WINUAE......FOR GODS SAKE TURN IT OFF MY AMIGAS STILL ON .....PHEW THAT WAS CLOSE !!!

So thats where i stand im afraid which is Preservation at ANY cost. Now dont get me wrong. I have bought Amiga forever and fully support any efforts of real Amiga revival but just in case.........Tribute 2 will be there

Thanks for letting me Rant guys !!!!!
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Old 01 November 2004, 15:50   #2
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What are you talking about? You may have some good points but I am really struggling to understand what you are saying towards the end.

Obviously as time goes by hardware will fail but there isn't exactly a shortage of A500s and A1200s and they can easily be obtained for the right money. As for the support, well there is the user support that this and other forums offer, often a lot better than most official support structures and there are several companies that still sell Amiga hardware , such as power computing, who will offer support.

As for the 'scene' in the future, your suggestion (if I am reading it right) that the death of the real hardware will increase the emphasis upon emulation is fairly obvious but I cannot see how this will necesserily increase the amount of users "ten" fold. If anything surely the fact that people may not be witnessing the Amiga first hand will result it slipping out of the popular memory of a new generation?

If emulation increases then ROM owners (and I presume you mean the kickstart ROMS and not 'ROMZ') will be far less willing to drop their copyright as they will be making more money.

I really don't understand what you mean when you talk about turning off your DVD.
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Old 01 November 2004, 16:22   #3
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OK.....In short

The Amigas (real ones ) will eventually die for one reason or another.
The less Amigas around the less support will survive.

Retro gaming will get bigger ( already is getting that way) Look at MAME for instance. How many of us owned an arcade machine but the community is huge !!!

Legally you cannot emulate and use your 1.3.rom...3.1.rom etc whilst your Amiga is switched on according to the train spotters ( ye pathetic i know )

My point was....i was fed up with people ( not on this forum ) saying how homebrew preservation cd's or DVD's are killing the Amiga...........Commodore did that already and a full production of new Amiga's and games is unlikely

End of part 2
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Old 01 November 2004, 16:31   #4
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Piracy killed the Amiga, with a lot of help from assholes in suits at Commodore. There's no point arguing about it or blaming people now cause it's too late, thankfully something good did come out of the piracy (preservation of virtually every floppy), but even better CAPS is putting things right by preserving the games as they should be preserved.

Some guy downloading every TOSEC file and making his own DVD's is OK, maybe he has a bit of a rom-whore problem but he's not hurting anyone. The same guy can even distribute the DVD's to his friends who don't have the time/connection to download what they want.

But as soon as someone starts selling DVD's on ebay then they are an asshole. If anyone should be making money from "obsolete" games then it should be the original authors.

If you really want to preserve your Amiga hardware you'd be best not to use it and store it in a temperature controlled fire-proof room in the dark. It might just survive longer than you ready for your grandkids to break it or sell it on ebay.

If you want to have fun with your Amiga then use it, let it turn yellow and get cigarette ash on the keyboard - you're not preserving a piece of vanilla white/yellow plastic - you're preserving memories, best to use them before you become obsolete.

And along with all of the above there's always WinUAE.
 
Old 01 November 2004, 16:49   #5
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Hmmm !!!
Its only a rant guys But ok im searching for the Infamous interview where Commodore stated Piracy sells Amigas !!!

Lets not forget Commodore made very little games...Piracy didnt kill the Amiga it was as you say assholes in suits at Commodore that finally did the trick. Commodore UK was thriving at the time

I also agree im talking freely distributable stuff not selling it on Ebay !!!!

Last edited by synchro; 01 November 2004 at 16:55.
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Old 01 November 2004, 21:22   #6
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I'm totally in agreement with you Synchro.

There will come a time when emulation is the only viable means of playing/using the old classics. I wonder if those with the (perhaps) elitest view that Amiga should only be played on Amiga will be saying the same thing in 20 years time?

It's akin to saying that old 16mm home movies people made before video camera's were around should only be played back on a 16mm projector. It's more convenient and obviously it preserves the film if it's transferred over to VHS or DVD. Likewise with Amiga. It's more convenient for some to play Amiga software on a PC and less use of the real Amiga results in a higher preservation rate.

The Dreamcast, piracy wise, is in a similar situation. Again it was mis-management at Sega the resulted in the true demise of the DC yet it's popularity was increasing mainly due to the fact that people realised there wasn't much protection on the system. It's also homebrew stuff and it's relatively easy to get hold of back catalogue that still keeps the DC popular to this day. Being a much harder machine to emulate though, people are still reliant on ever dwindling numbers of real hardware (Although Chankcast works surprisingly well for some titles!)

It's also been whispered that Microsoft knew it would be pretty easy to 'mod' the xbox but were quite 'happy' about this because it allowed the system to achieve critical mass in a short space of time. They have only made token efforts to make modding more difficult and were quite prepared to make a major loss on the system. Get the product out there in large numbers, get the name known and the next system will sell like hot cakes due to the (and I don't understand it) product allegience console consumers usually enter into.

XBox2 security will be a hell of a lot more difficult to circumvent though!

Ignore the train spotters Synchro - I do!

In saying that though, the people who should be benefitting from the massive retro-gaming scene are the software authors themselves so perhaps the answer isn't to make all software freely available after a certain amount of time but to employ some kind of iTunes model to the availability with people being able to download titles legally knowing that the author will be receiving a share of the small cost.

This won't happen though!

(Dunno if the above text makes any sense people! It's just that I can see where Synchro is coming from and agree 110% with him!)
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Old 02 November 2004, 00:34   #7
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Originally Posted by andyr
It's also been whispered that Microsoft knew it would be pretty easy to 'mod' the xbox but were quite 'happy' about this because it allowed the system to achieve critical mass in a short space of time. They have only made token efforts to make modding more difficult and were quite prepared to make a major loss on the system. Get the product out there in large numbers, get the name known and the next system will sell like hot cakes due to the (and I don't understand it) product allegience console consumers usually enter into.

XBox2 security will be a hell of a lot more difficult to circumvent though!
Yeah.....we'll probably have to solder more points than before
 
Old 02 November 2004, 02:55   #8
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LOL!!!
Nice one C16

Andyr Thanks for that constructive and amazing support on my rant

I would like to just clear one thing up though. If i thought for one minute that NOT making my DVD would save the Amiga i would abort it instantly but in reality at this stage of the Amiga's life it just wouldnt happen even if everyone stopped. In fact i think it would die even faster than anyone of us could imagine. I think Piracy on the Amiga is old and in the past. Its preservation that now holds the key. Perhaps someone that emulates may decide to buy a real Amiga it doesnt have to be all negative.

Changing the subject slightly ( you will love this )......As Andyr stated about XBOX i have followed this story since the 1.2 version and this is how it worked.

1...Xbox 1.2 released...A place for a chip is already there ???..... It neednt be....But it is ????
2...People complain modding is awkward as the holes for the plug are filled with solder.
3...Xbox 1.3 is released and to the amazement of the modders not only are the holes still there but they kindly removed the solder

3...Xbox 1.4 released........yup!!! holes still there
4...Xbox 1.5 released........you guessed it
5...Xbox 1.6 released........Slightly different wiring...holes still there more reliable for modding than ever ( is this crazy or what )

The fact is by removing the holes they could make EVERY chip on the net useless in 24 hours. The loss of stock alone would bankrupt most. So why are Microsoft so Generous ???? Well someone stated once before i think.....Who wants a console you cant Mod !!!

My point is its not like they are REALLY trying is it

Last edited by synchro; 02 November 2004 at 16:12.
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Old 02 November 2004, 11:36   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by synchro
Well someone stated once before i think.....Who wants a console you cant Mod !!!
The Gamecube?
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Old 02 November 2004, 16:06   #10
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The Gamecube?
Well it kind of can be done through your PC but ok
This does prove a point though. Xbox and PS2 sell better than gamecube

In fact last i heard the low sales are stopping software houses making games for it which IRONOICLY looks like they would rather risk the piracy and still make more money than produce games for a safe machine that isnt the most popular ??
I think it was discussed on "Gamesville" a few weeks ago if anyone watches that.

Last edited by synchro; 02 November 2004 at 16:23.
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Old 02 November 2004, 16:53   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by synchro
Well it kind of can be done through your PC but ok
This does prove a point though. Xbox and PS2 sell better than gamecube

In fact last i heard the low sales are stopping software houses making games for it which IRONOICLY looks like they would rather risk the piracy and still make more money than produce games for a safe machine that isnt the most popular ??
I think it was discussed on "Gamesville" a few weeks ago if anyone watches that.
i don't think that's quite true. the gamecube is far more popular in japan than the xbox, and it's nothing to do with how mod-able it is or isn't - it's because the games available appeal more to the japanese market than all the sports sims and the like on the xbox. the business model console manufacturers employ means that the losses on hardware are so great that every pirated game is a huge problem for them. i'm quite sure that if MS et al could kill off piracy once and for all they would.

Last edited by Matfink; 02 November 2004 at 16:55. Reason: typo
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Old 02 November 2004, 17:55   #12
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that thing could be modded even if they remove the holes
more difficult yes but not impossible
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Old 02 November 2004, 18:21   #13
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Microsoft would never kill off Piracy.

They became what they are because of Piracy. It's so obvious. They know the best way to become the dominant player is to flood the market with their software and make it easy to get. They knew a lot of their home market could not afford to shell out the money for a windows OS. Make it easily accessible then when 95% percent of the market has Windows on their computer they can recoup their losses from Piracy by charging the wealthy (companies) insane licensing fees. MS knows there is no money in the home market. But what better way to get the OS in businesses than to get installed on their machines at home. People will get comfortable using it at home and will want the same at work.

Piracy did not kill the Amiga either. In fact in sold more amiga machines. That's a fact.
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Old 02 November 2004, 18:36   #14
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Piracy did not kill the Amiga either. In fact in sold more amiga machines. That's a fact.
I agree. I bought my Amiga because the games could be copied and Im sure Im not the only one.
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Old 02 November 2004, 18:38   #15
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no, i quite agree. i was talking about the console market, which is based on an entirely different approach to making profit. in terms of the OS and PC software market, what you say is quite right. however, it is simply not in their interest to let people pirate xbox games when they are the sole revenue stream for the brand - there are no corporate licences for halo 2, after all.
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Old 02 November 2004, 19:04   #16
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I think you'll find the Xbox2 may be different as far as the modding goes.
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Old 02 November 2004, 19:09   #17
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The Gamecube?
Nintendo have a unique position. Ever since the release of the NES they have always promoted themselves as being family friendly - in fact if you know of the Mortal Kombat debacle, you'll know that the colour of the blood had to be changed from red to green before Nintendo would license it for sale.

Parents have been 'brainwashed' into thinking that by buying a Nintendo console, their kids won't be 'subjected' to the more mature themes that titles on other consoles may offer. It's a safe option.

To help protect this image, Nintendo implemented extremely good security - not least of which was the proprietary disc format. They know that parents will know that it is the most secure system so Mr and/or Mrs average will most likely decide on to surprise little Johnny with a Nintendo console for Christmas.

The Gamecube isn't as secure as Nintendo have led people to believe BUT it is a pain to get around the security. (PSO exploit anyone?!)

BTW, this family friendly image is slowly disappearing though because those same kids who grew up with the NES and SNES now have children of their own. They may well want to protect their children from the more violent of titles but can also remember when would have rather had played mortal kombat on the Sega rather than the Nintendo.

And what I've written above isn't the be-all-and-end-all. As someone pointed out, the Gamecube is huge in the Japanese market and so the high security does protect Nintendo's assets somewhat.

In reply to Synchro, you are correct about the LPC header. The removal of this would have resulted in the collapse of the XBOX mod business as it is now. AFAIK, it isn't needed for diagnosis or repair of the boards so why leave it there - especially considering there are 6 revisions of motherboard!

As Hal said, it wouldn't mean the xbox was now un-hackable but would make it a lot more difficult or even only software exploitable (like the gamecube)

Linux legally running on Gamecube - http://www.gc-linux.org/docs/screenshots.html
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Old 02 November 2004, 20:08   #18
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The main positive aspect about the Gamecube is that it takes risks. Could you really imagine Super Monkey Ball or Animal Crossing being so popular on the X-Box? (I know that a version of SMB is being translated across but it looks pretty terrible)

I know the Gamecube can be hacked via the BBA but it is impossible to make a disc based copy of a game. The reason in England anyway, that the Gamecube isn't as popular is due to poor or non-existant advertising, a life time for games to be released in this market (AC anyone? Mario Tennis?) and the fact that males between 15-30 don't want to risk their masculinity by bying something 'cute'. The adverts depicting tanned 6ft models playing on their X-boxes is pure crap, game shops are still full of the trainspotting types that were associated with gaming 10-15 years ago.

Maybe Nintendo were on to loser by trying to involve the female market.

"If it don't involve guns, bitches and cars it ain't for me! Homey!"

Anyway, we are getting off-topic................
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Old 05 November 2004, 03:11   #19
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i don't think that's quite true. the gamecube is far more popular in japan than the xbox, and it's nothing to do with how mod-able it is or isn't - it's because the games available appeal more to the japanese market than all the sports sims and the like on the xbox. the business model console manufacturers employ means that the losses on hardware are so great that every pirated game is a huge problem for them. i'm quite sure that if MS et al could kill off piracy once and for all they would.
You may well be right in Japan
There are a lot of games produced there that we dont see most being a kind of Anime i think. and they do love nifty little square things dont they

As my post shows above MS could prevent there xbox being modded easily but they dont ....Why they dont is the real question.

XBOX2 ???? Who knows.....Still on paper i think but the last i heard MS stated it wouldnt be backward compatable for games and there was UPROAR on the forums......The next day a statement was put out by MS that nothing was definate yet !!!
Just because you have a modded XBOX doesnt mean you must be a pirate you can emulate just about anything its so cool. Had the mod been fitted as standard MS could have wiped the console market off the floor.....Hmmm Perhaps thats their secret intention which is why they have been so helpfull to modders ......Worth a thought

But the Gamecube does have Rogue Squadron II Lucky sods

Last edited by synchro; 05 November 2004 at 03:20.
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Old 05 November 2004, 03:37   #20
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Just one other thing and that is i think piracy will always be with us....on anything. If it can be copied someone will try.
BUT !!!
Games now are far better value than what they once were. We play games we dreamed of in the Amiga Days so i think if you really like or want a game you buy it anyway...Demos for instance.....if you dont like the demo you wont buy the game...I think as games get cheaper then piracy will slow down a bit.
OR.....If blank DVD's were 15 pounds each it wouldnt be worth the hassle so theres a lot of people to blame......They give you the means to do it then moan when you do

Gamecube drives i belive rotate backwards making games near impossible to copy and thats an expensive procedure but if they all tried it no doubt there would be DVD writers available within 6 months with forward and reverse

All this kind of makes putting a few ADF's that are 20 years old on a DVD seem pretty trivial doesnt it

Last edited by synchro; 05 November 2004 at 03:54.
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