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Old 06 September 2006, 11:02   #141
Zetr0
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@GODS: bah.... gods..... bah!

lion heart was in so many ways its superior... the only thing gods had was a catchy intro tune....

as far as platform games go GODS was a step in the reverse direction...

@Super Frog: depsite the fact i hate platformers this one hooked me.

a lot of peeps say that a lot of team17 games had no soul or over comercialised in some cases both... however this little gem of a game had all the right ingredients of an arcade platformer... its simple interaction with good moving melodies, well drawn aga graphics and some fantastic level design... simple classic.

@Giana Sisters: i spanked this game on the C64.

a complete mario brothers rip, even down to the bugs... bored the pants off me so i played Archon instead ... without pants......

@Sword of Sodan: when i first saw this, I had to pick my jaw up.

I couldn`t believe the graphics when i saw this bolted upto the TV... i rember i had just finnished LED on the C64 and went round my uncles whom had an A500.... i can tell you now.. i was over wowed! and 3 months later.... our house had an A500
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Old 06 September 2006, 11:17   #142
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Originally Posted by Zetr0
@Sword of Sodan: when i first saw this, I had to pick my jaw up.

I couldn`t believe the graphics when i saw this bolted upto the TV...
When I saw it the first Time I had to laugh out loud because of its terrible soundeffekts ( "Ugh, UGH, Ugh")
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Old 06 September 2006, 12:44   #143
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dastardly
I quite like the fact it has no in game music. I think if it had then it would make the gameplay quite different as part of the game is listening out for distant trapdoors, aliens spawning, objects falling etc as a result of level switches etc. Im not sure how this would work with music.

Im sure if it did have music it would have been excellent.
I don't mean music playing through-out the game, that would have spoilt the atmosphere. I meant that music was used to good effect in certain situations and the music would need to be quite and moody, sort background noise etc..


Quote:
Originally Posted by Zetr0

@Super Frog: depsite the fact i hate platformers this one hooked me.

a lot of peeps say that a lot of team17 games had no soul or over comercialised in some cases both... however this little gem of a game had all the right ingredients of an arcade platformer... its simple interaction with good moving melodies, well drawn aga graphics and some fantastic level design... simple classic.
What version of Superfrog did you play?

I have never seen an aga version
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Old 06 September 2006, 13:14   #144
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zetr0
@GODS: bah.... gods..... bah!

lion heart was in so many ways its superior... the only thing gods had was a catchy intro tune....

as far as platform games go GODS was a step in the reverse direction...

@Super Frog: depsite the fact i hate platformers this one hooked me.

a lot of peeps say that a lot of team17 games had no soul or over comercialised in some cases both...
I couldn`t believe the graphics when i saw this bolted upto the TV... i rember i had just finnished LED on the C64 and went round my uncles whom had an A500.... i can tell you now.. i was over wowed! and 3 months later.... our house had an A500
Totally disagree about Lionheart. I dont even like the graphics, which seems in most peoples eyes to be its main strength. Ugly overly complicated sprites finished in equally ugly colours. Also, from what Ive played, it seems quite linear. Get from point A to point B with not a lot in between. Maybe this was just the early levels. Definitely NOT superior to Gods - in my opinion of course

Im actually one of those people that find Team 17 games soulless. Theres something about them that makes them very bland. They look nice, they sound nice and are technically very impressive but theres more to a good game than just these elements.
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Old 06 September 2006, 15:14   #145
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Originally Posted by Jope
Ouch!

Lotus 2 has nullmodem for a total of four racers, if you can stand the slowdown.

Twas great fun. :-)
It was great wasn't it, and as I recall it ran quite a bit faster in NTSC.
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Old 06 September 2006, 18:55   #146
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Originally Posted by Dastardly
Im actually one of those people that find Team 17 games soulless. Theres something about them that makes them very bland. They look nice, they sound nice and are technically very impressive but theres more to a good game than just these elements.
I don't entirely share that view, I will say however that I loved Alien Breed series in 2 player

Full Contact was a bit bland, Project X was very good and I enjoyed assassin for a short while!

I enjoy robocod far more than any other platformer for its simplicity and cutesy gameplay and gfx..
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Old 06 September 2006, 20:54   #147
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Its something thats hard to quantify.

To me its like Team 17 games are made by men in suits who have discovered the formula of how to create games.

They have everything going for them except charisma or soul or that certain something that makes truly great games more than just the sum of their parts.

I also find their main characters to be extremely dull:

Superfrog - a Super Frog? the only reason this character has any personality at all is down to Eric Schwartz
Alien Breed - are these identically cloned characters even named?
Assasin - who?
Body Blows - painfully unoriginal and instantly forgettable
Full Contact - again painfully unoriginal
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Old 06 September 2006, 21:11   #148
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me too i always thought that Team17 games, while being important to my gamer days, were subtly flawed. either it was the graphics whose feeling i did not get, like they were made by someone whose taste unconsciously i really dislike, like elements of it you could see repeatedly so to catch it, but nevertheless it was uncoherent, unispired.
or the gameplay that had some "i don't underatand why ever they did that" here and there. i played them a lot though and they are not bad either. i liked and disliked a lot Project X and the Alien Breeds for instance. btw: i still think that while the gameplay is at the same level between Xenon 2 and Project X, Xenon 2 beat the craps out the opponent for the graphic: the fun is kinda alike, they both have originality touches and flaws, the design is solid for both, but the graphic of Project X while, being advanced and well utilizing the capabilities of the Amiga, pales to the power of the Nautilus and the Trilobytes! AHAHHHAHHAHHAHA... ehm
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Old 07 September 2006, 00:11   #149
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me too i always thought that Team17 games, while being important to my gamer days, were subtly flawed. either it was the graphics whose feeling i did not get, like they were made by someone whose taste unconsciously i really dislike, like elements of it you could see repeatedly so to catch it, but nevertheless it was uncoherent, unispired.
or the gameplay that had some "i don't underatand why ever they did that" here and there. i played them a lot though and they are not bad either.
I do tend to agree to a certain extent concerning what was said earlier about some Team17 games lacking soul... but still I don't think of many of their games as 'bad'... rather, just not necessarily original and inspiring...

This is what I wrote elsewhere concerning Superfrog for the CD32:

"A good example of a game not realised the way it should have been realised. At first it bothered me that the levels were maze like and that one had to collect X items to be able to enter the exit (how often have we not seen this in Amiga games where it has been rather obvious that the collecting part have been nothing but a way to extend the playtime and try to disguise bad level designs), but with time I came to appreciate this very aspect of the game; the levels really are well and intriguingly designed. Other good aspects of the game is the charming intro (and so is the ending although rather sexist, but whatever), really nice music with well memorable tunes and finally beautiful graphics although way too static for my taste; at times it feels like jumping arund on one big picture since pretty much nothing is moving besides the enemies. However, I do think that the challenge is somewhat uneven, since some of the later stages are way easier than the first ones, and also we have this hellish gap of spikes at the final stage that most people never will be able to fly over. Way to go, developers! Besides that, it also bother me that the enemies move at a constant 25 FPS while the game in itself run in perfect 50Hz; the scrolling is simply perfect while the movement of the enemies isn't. But, the two things that bothers me the most is the catastrophal password system which renders obtaining the passwords nearly impossible aswell as the way too easy final boss. I'm not satisfied."

To sum it all up... I think Superfrog is a decent game which had more potential than deliverance. With just a little more soul and editing out the flaws I think it could have been, to me, more or less perfect.

...and this I wrote on Super Stardust AGA:

"Some people might be put off by this game when they realize how hard it is to master. But, I find it being nothing but a worthy challange, and with time one WILL get better and better at controlling the ship. It just takes some pratice and a lot of patience. Normally I would be put off by this kind of thoughness, but the game feels so fair that I possibly can't blame them for making it this hard. Add to this some marvellous graphics (which haven't dated the slighest), some excellent music (it is really addictive) and the lack of making use of a second button (which leads us to the only thing I dislike about the AGA version of this game: I hate the fact that one has to use 'space' to access the menu, especially when pressing button number two on the joypad/joystick should suffice) and you have one hell of a game. Unlike Shadow of the Beast there is more to this game than just looks and technical splendor; I wholeheartedly thank Bloodhouse and Team 17 for that. This is simply one of the most impressive and addictive games on the Amiga, ever, and, no, it is not too hard; it is just YOU and YOU and YOU that can't call yourselves proper power players. But, off the record... I haven't managed to beat this game either."

...and notice the irony at the end. It is simply what I have been slapped in the face with over and over again while claiming Shadow of the Beast and it's sequel to be unreasonably hard. Super Stardust AGA, however, is just hard... according to me... never unfair or, like in SotB2, offering 1 minute gameplay and 10 minutes loading times the first 50 times playing it. Hehe. Oh, well, whatever.

Concerning Project X vs. Xenon 2... Xenon 2 is one of those games I without hestitation will throw in the garbage bin if given to me. It might be just like with Gods, that Xenon 2 is offering some kind of good gameplay that I can't see that lies hidden beneath what I find a hysterically tragic technological presentation (non smooth scroll, the most repetative soundtrack ever, graphicswise repetative level design, slow controls... well, you know me by now, I have gone through all this before with Gods). Compared to other contemporary shooters, especially classic Japanese ones; Gradius, Salamander, R-Type and so on, I have always felt that Xenon 2 seriously lacked pretty much everything that made a good game. Project X, while being a tad too hard for the masses (and even some schmup veterans) at least, to me, managed to be visually impressive (I think the graphics are gorgeous, most of the time)... and offered at least a few songs compared to Xenon 2's one song... and while I can't say that I think it is a bad shooter, because I think it a pretty nice shooter, I still think it suffered from too long levels that felt more repetative than dynamic. I think this is what often makes me turned off on shooters developed outside of japan, although there is quite some variety to the levels in Project X, so I can't really blame this game suffering THAT much from repetativeness... and I love the bonus stages which even had someone program its own little PD game called Hyperwarp based on them.

Oh, well...

Here we go again...


Last edited by Legerdemain; 07 September 2006 at 00:17.
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Old 07 September 2006, 01:52   #150
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Legerdemain, i understand your pointsm, i, more and more, just think that, real flaws aside, the like of those you find in unexperienced producers' games or simply badly done, and i cannot think of many of those, well, the rest it's juast a matter of application: a game catches you early on, you try and try to get it better. that happened WAY more often when i was a kiddo, if ever, and i think it's fairly common.
i prolly love Xenon 2 because it was my first game and i had not any before beside Pong. but i do think it was cool and designed with actual goals in mind:
for instance, i think it was made to catch the feeling of arcade games, those i would have liked to play at the bar and my parents were saying no! to.
heh
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Old 07 September 2006, 16:41   #151
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Legerdemain
Oooooh, I forgot... one of the most over praised games ever. Shadow of the Beast. Utter crap. Technical masterpiece, yes, but game play wise? Crap.
Well, there has been controversy over SOTB's "poor gameplay vs. stunning technique" since it was released back in '89 so I wouldn't call that an overrated title. I mean, everyone's been bashing it since day one

Then it's another issue that it got skyrocket ratings despite its unplayability... they were probably being wilfully ignorant.

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Old 15 November 2008, 20:55   #152
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I was looking for something on EAB and found this thread. I must admit that there are many controversial point of views here. I am not going to elaborate on some because the thread might go on forever but recently I got interested with Celica GT Rally. In magazines it had splendid reviews but the game is total crap. Sometimes when I was reading the review I thought that they reviewed one game and rated another.
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Old 15 November 2008, 21:05   #153
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I think it was different, but not bad.
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Old 16 November 2008, 00:43   #154
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I think it's just to subjective... what makes a game 'overrated' or 'crap' could be different things to different people. And I'll bet when half the games listed in this thread were released, the same people on this thread were thinking "Wow, that's fantastic..."

Look at the restrictions (compared to today) that the Amiga was faced with. For a start, most popular games were released on 720K disks. Today's blockbusters need DVD capacity just to install and even then many need you to keep the disk in just to play.

The great thing about almost EVERY Amiga game was just how far the programmers could push the capability of the machine at the time. The intro to IK+ for example - how cinematic did that look? And System 3 managed to fit that and the entire game onto 1 floppy.

On the flip side of that look at Beneath A Steel Sky. Fantastic game, very exciting, moody, background music all the way through (again very cinema-like)... but 15 FLOPPIES? I never had a HD for my Miggy until 1992, but still insisted on swapping the disks over because the game was great in my opinion...

And that's all these replies will ever be. Opinion. Great games will stand on their own always, but even with the benefit of hindsight, let's not forget that 'hype' is how advertisers work. People buy steam mops and long-handled dusters from TV ads because they hype them into a 'must have', which I'm sure was also used (and still is) for games. Has anyone played the Need for Speed series - IT'S ALL CAR-RACING although the later they get the better they look, has the game improved? Isn't that what the hype is about? It's almost propaganda (in the literal sense, information which must be diseminated) to the point of overcoming the player's objection to poor gameplay/repetitiveness (which a lot of games suffer) because the hype starts 'the LATEST in the ever growing...' In other words "Don't miss this or you won't have the complete series/latest graphics/newest blah blah."

Anyway that's my rant, I'm going to pour mysef another molotov cocktail...
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Old 16 November 2008, 00:45   #155
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Look at the restrictions (compared to today) that the Amiga was faced with. For a start, most popular games were released on 720K disks. Today's blockbusters need DVD capacity just to install and even then many need you to keep the disk in just to play.
You do mean 880kb disks don't you. THough this was pushed too 0900kb+ with custom formats
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Old 16 November 2008, 00:48   #156
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You do mean 880kb disks don't you. THough this was pushed too 0900kb+ with custom formats
D'oh!
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Old 16 November 2008, 01:03   #157
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Old 16 November 2008, 09:20   #158
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It's the ST fault :)

Had the Atari ST 32 colors instead of 16 the Bros would have made games in 32 colors instead of 16.
Xenon2, Gods, Cadaver, Magic Pockets, Chaos Engine ECS use only 16 colors (and even then the graphics are impressive).

Team17/Psygnosis made the effort of creating games with 32 colors and then downscale them to 16 colors for the ST (check youtube for SOTB Amiga vs ST you'll see for yourself)

Same thing for the scrolling. It's not smooth because they use standard programming methods and not Amiga-specific scrolling routines.

Another reason is that Gods & MP use walking characters who move 2 by 2 pixels: to follow the character you cannot scroll 1 by 1 pixel (I had the same problem when remaking Gods). Team 17 Superfrog character seems to "fly" so does Assassin guy so it's easier to make a smoother scrolling that follows the main character and does not make you puke

Shame on the Bros for the color stuff. When they created PC versions they even had 256 colors to their disposal and still stuck to 16 colors (but without the copper effects so it's even worse).

Shame on the others for the (relative) boredom of their games. I still prefer Bitmap Bros games, even if I played & enjoy a lot of Team 17 & Psygnosis games (Lemmings, Alien Breed series, Body Blows series, Superfrog, SOTB 3). I still love all of their games (except Chaos Engine 2 which sucked!!)

BTW Gods had decent in-game music in all versions but ST/Amiga. PC version plays in-game music through the Roland MT32 soundcard. Try with DosBox you'll see (I could not believe it) while Sega & SNES versions have the same John Foxx tunes in the background.

Last edited by jotd; 16 November 2008 at 09:44.
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Old 16 November 2008, 09:41   #159
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woohhww
i'm discovering this thread
wooww,

saying that speedball 2 sucks is an heresy !!!
this game is so fun and so playable, speedball 2 have nice graphics and a good sound design. The playability is perfect, and nervous.
And playing this game with a friend was terrific !!!!! i play with again at this time

I can't say that any team17 or psygnosis games sucks. no, i can't
i'm an amiga user since 1991 and i remember that psygnosis, bitmap bros, & team17 where the magical words in my young brain.

okay, some games (shadow of the beast especially) where just beautiful with bad playability, but i was so happy to see that the a 500 was superior than the others

For me, superfrog is perfect, i don't understand why this game sucks !!

i love agony, his graphics and sounds, i love playing with,
much respect for the great teams who gave us those great games

16 32 or 256 colors were not the most important point of a good game
for me, a game is good when my eyes, my ears and my brains says together :

"rhhaaa lovely"

PS: indeed, chaos engine 2 is a bad game, a bad sequel !

sorry for my bad english

Last edited by s4m; 16 November 2008 at 09:42. Reason: little precision
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Old 16 November 2008, 10:21   #160
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Nice thread, looks like every released Amiga game is highly overrated.
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