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Old 13 May 2004, 23:48   #41
Antiriad
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Nice pic of the Zodiac and the PSP together
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Old 13 May 2004, 23:51   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ian
You seem to having a go at several people there Akira.
Ahh you twatter Ian This was a reply to manicx only! You said perfectly " this is a tad smaller than a lynx II" so why are you jumping on me? :P

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Old 14 May 2004, 01:29   #43
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If I could find it I would
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Old 14 May 2004, 10:16   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Antiriad
And unlike the foulmouthed Nintendo fanboy ,

You like to assign labels Antiriad, don't you? Wasn't you that you clearly stated that you dislike Nintendo first? A 'Anti Nintendo fanboy' maybe? I personally only bought a Gameboy. I have nothing else from Nintendo and I generally buy products that I feel they are better than others, not products that are in the opposition of the products I hate.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Akira
THIS IS HANDHELD.

And dunno where you get your facts from mate, but this is SMALLER than a Lynx. I take it that you never owned one? I have the second version (which was smaller) and it's bigger than this.
Well, a handheld that needs a special carrying case? I am not hanging this thing in my neck. I don't want to look like a cow with a bell in my neck. This thing is huge. Although they call it habdheld, I think that it is huge. I am not sure how nice will it be to have a little case with it wherever you go...

As for the Lynx, you should know that back then I was developing for Atari Hellas. I made the Greek version of TOS as well as a text editor for them. I had access to all Atari hardware including the Atari Lynx. The analogy of the Lynx Vs Gameboy are the same as the PSP vs DS.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Akira
No way I am comparing the NintendoDS to this, they are completely different machines IMO. Let's wait and see what Nintendo will pull because the PSP looks like the only device that is more catering to the current market. N64-like specs won't do it against this monster if you are selling it to Joe 3Dkiddy

I also think that this is more for an adult.
Technology-wise or design-wise? Technology wise nintendo's hardware is revolutionary for a handheld game console. Sony's is evolutionary. The touch screen, wi-fi, voice recognition of DS are unique. This is the closest thing to a PDA as opposed to the PSP. Nintendo people said that you can have access to the internet on a wireless LAN and with the touch screen on it, browsing can be extremely easy. The touch screen also means that we can finally have games not seen in handhelds before. Think of a RTG where you have the map on one screen and you play the game on the other using the touch-screen functionality. The limits of PSP are on the hardware. The limits of the DS are on the people's mind that design the software for it. Nintrendo Europe also has under development voice recognition software. Another unique feauture that will enchance gameplay.
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Old 14 May 2004, 11:07   #45
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Originally Posted by Methanoid
This COULD be a real killer handheld... wonder what battery life is like!??
According to the London Metro, it is 10 hours.

Since the Metro said it, it really must be true, it is the all-knowing newspaper, m'kay?
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Old 14 May 2004, 11:41   #46
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Metro is a POS.... but its free.... U can use it to keep rain off your head!
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Old 14 May 2004, 11:49   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by manicx
Well, a handheld that needs a special carrying case? I am not hanging this thing in my neck. I don't want to look like a cow with a bell in my neck. This thing is huge. Although they call it habdheld, I think that it is huge.
Let me repeat myself

Handheld
HAND HELD
HANDHELD
Quote:
Technology-wise or design-wise? Technology wise nintendo's hardware is revolutionary for a handheld game console. Sony's is evolutionary.
My my mate, you are confusing the terms yourself put forth. The Nintendo DS is revolutionary DESIGN-WISE, not technology-wise. The design is innovative. Design is not just the stupid case it comes in, this is a product, an OBJECT, a system. The concept of dual screens, touch screen, voice recogniotion and wireless are design, not technology. CONCEPT. The technology to achieve these tasks is far from revolutionary. Actually the PSP's hardware isn't revolutionary either, since it's almost a PS2. Compared to previous handhelds, both machines have pushed the hardware up a bit. Evolutionary if you want to say so. But all the stuff you mention is PURE DESIGN.

And if we're picky, this design is not even revolutionary. Dual screens? Nintendo themselves used them in the 80s! Touchscreen? Every PDA has it. Voice Recognition? we all know it's arse. Wireless connectivity? I think my mom's microwave has bluetooth :P all this stuck into one machine... Clever, but not revolutionary in my opinion. The only strange or new thing will be teh inclusion of a second screen on a game system of this type. It worked well with Game & watchs (to an extent, I never got used to dual screeners), but who knows about this. Somebody mentioned teh attention issue here, it could be a problem!
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Old 14 May 2004, 12:03   #48
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What I'd want is a pocketPc with decent gamepad and designed for games.

And NO I dont want a Zodiac. Its got a 200Mhz CPU and PPCs have 400Mhz which is darn sight more useful for emulators.
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Old 14 May 2004, 12:12   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Akira
My my mate, you are confusing the terms yourself put forth. The Nintendo DS is revolutionary DESIGN-WISE, not technology-wise. The design is innovative. Design is not just the stupid case it comes in, this is a product, an OBJECT, a system. The concept of dual screens, touch screen, voice recogniotion and wireless are design, not technology. CONCEPT. The technology to achieve these tasks is far from revolutionary. Actually the PSP's hardware isn't revolutionary either, since it's almost a PS2. Compared to previous handhelds, both machines have pushed the hardware up a bit. Evolutionary if you want to say so. But all the stuff you mention is PURE DESIGN.
Well I can probably say the same to you. You said that PSP looks more adult oriented. Based on what? The design or the hardware? Can you please answer this question?

The technology used in DS is a touch screen, voice recognition, wi-fi and so on These are technology! The design puts these technological bits together. Design is how to use these in one piece of hardware. You have the hardware ie chips, LCD screens etc and you make a design to incorporate all these together.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Akira
And if we're picky, this design is not even revolutionary. Dual screens? Nintendo themselves used them in the 80s! Touchscreen? Every PDA has it. Voice Recognition? we all know it's arse. Wireless connectivity? I think my mom's microwave has bluetooth :P all this stuck into one machine... Clever, but not revolutionary in my opinion. The only strange or new thing will be teh inclusion of a second screen on a game system of this type. It worked well with Game & watchs (to an extent, I never got used to dual screeners), but who knows about this. Somebody mentioned teh attention issue here, it could be a problem!
Every PDA has it but this is a GAME CONSOLE. Adding a touch screen on a game console is a first. Voice Recognition an arse? Can you use arguments to explain this to me better? I think this is great. Can you imagine handicapped people playing games on it? Sweet. As I said, the Nintendo Europe spokesman already said that the software is ready and goes under tests at the moment. Also don't confuse Bluetooth with Wi-Fi. They are different notions.
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Old 14 May 2004, 12:41   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by manicx
Well I can probably say the same to you. You said that PSP looks more adult oriented. Based on what? The design or the hardware? Can you please answer this question?
The physical design. Can you define "looks"? would I define looks based on hardware specs? does a woman look pretty only because you heard she's good at maths?

Quote:
The technology used in DS is a touch screen, voice recognition, wi-fi and so on These are technology! The design puts these technological bits together. Design is how to use these in one piece of hardware. You have the hardware ie chips, LCD screens etc and you make a design to incorporate all these together.
Oh my, now you will teach me about design. No thanks. You even said it yourself, those things are technology, not design. Therefore this is a "revolutionary" concept design-wise. The technology bits on its own are just technology, unless you analize their design. Whatever. Design is NOT the case these things are put on, if you think so, you better stop talking about design and getting on with something else. Or if you are interested, learn something about design.
Quote:
Every PDA has it but this is a ...
Concept. Clever one as I said. But not revolutionary.
Quote:
Voice Recognition an arse? Can you use arguments to explain this to me better? I think this is great. Can you imagine handicapped people playing games on it? Sweet.
You have obviously never used a speech recognition system, ever. Otherwise you would know what I'm talking about. Speech recognition is a mighty fine idea but its application is so bad that it's useless. My mac's voice recognition system is arse, are you expecting a handheld console aimed for kids to have a system better than those that cost shitloads of money and are not even perfect? Voice recognition is an area of computing that is not very evolutioned, because it's hard to do.

And I don't give a shit if it's bluetooth, wifi or ham radio. wireless connectivity it is and it's not novel. My NeoGeo Pocket had wireless capabilities (connect to another unit to play wireless)
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Old 14 May 2004, 13:05   #51
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Touch screens have been around for years and years.... maybe the reason Nintendo have added it is because they feel there's nothing else they can do to fight off Sony’s PSP other than add loads of "technological" crap that they themselves have been discounting for years to fool people into thinking it's a good idea.

The DS smacks of desperation. Nintendo are running scared and rightly so, the PSP has got them and their portable version of a early 90's console beat and beat good.

The gameboy was around for years before Nintendo replaced it, now they've got serious competition they are forcing through something that they should of released instead of the GBA.

I hope Nintendo are finished, they have screwed people for years with the arrogant "the handheld market is ours" attitude and now, they are going to get their comeuppance.

And it couldn't happen to a nicer company.

Sony maybe a big evil corporation, but they at least upgrade their products when the technology becomes available, rather than only selling black and white TVs 15 years after every other TV manufacturer has switched to colour.

At the end of the day, the end user muist decide, do they want a portable Playstation 2, or a handheld N64 with lots of added crap that they'll never use.

Call me silly if you like, but I'll take the portable PS2.

Last edited by Ian; 14 May 2004 at 13:34.
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Old 14 May 2004, 13:10   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Akira
Oh my, now you will teach me about design. No thanks. You even said it yourself, those things are technology, not design. Therefore this is a "revolutionary" concept design-wise. The technology bits on its own are just technology, unless you analize their design. Whatever. Design is NOT the case these things are put on, if you think so, you better stop talking about design and getting on with something else. Or if you are interested, learn something about design.
So technology cannot not revolutionary with what you say up there. I know very well what technology and design is since this is my job.

Quote:
You have obviously never used a speech recognition system, ever. Otherwise you would know what I'm talking about. Speech recognition is a mighty fine idea but its application is so bad that it's useless. My mac's voice recognition system is arse, are you expecting a handheld console aimed for kids to have a system better than those that cost shitloads of money and are not even perfect? Voice recognition is an area of computing that is not very evolutioned, because it's hard to do.

And I don't give a shit if it's bluetooth, wifi or ham radio. wireless connectivity it is and it's not novel. My NeoGeo Pocket had wireless capabilities (connect to another unit to play wireless)
Akira's post are like that:

a) OBVIOUSLY you never used it before

b) I don't give a shit if it is this or that.

These are not strong arguments in there I have to say. Game consoles are not for kids. I am not sure how many kids are in these forums or whether the people in E3 are kids. This is entertainment and it applies to all. Does this mean that all my 30-year old friends who own a game console (hand-held or not) are kids? I suggest you to visit http://www.wi-fi.org/ for more about wi-fi.
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Old 14 May 2004, 13:22   #53
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It remind me some AtariST vs Amiga threads

The only truth here is that hardcore gamers will have to buy all hardware in order to play all best games on every platform.
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Old 14 May 2004, 13:23   #54
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Since it is my territory...
To be honest, voice recognition is pure software, unless you have a dedicated (and very expensive) board with tons of DSPs, for multi-port (channel if you like) operation on e1/t1 trunks sc or ct media bus, like Antares.
In that case it is the firmware that contains basically a very similar software that you'd write on your pc anyway, just smp running on say 30 chips at the very same time...
The point is you can quite simply add voice recognition to any system, including PSP, so long it has a mic and sufficient processing power. Therefore it is pointless to list that as a feature, especially since the ARMs in DS are bleeding slow compared to the PSP cpu. There are many software technologies that you could quote for every single product that can run software, yet some companies are listing those (N), some are not even bothered (Sony), as software being versatile is self-explanatory.
Actually you can buy games like Socom or LifeLine for ps2, that use voice recognition, EyeToy stuff that uses heavy image processing and the like, yet you wouldn't see any of these features listed on your ps2 box, since they are software.
Dual-screens can be novel, but N's very own dual-screen LCDs clearly shows how this is not a very new idea, just rebadged. Not to mention Matrox video cards driving 2/3 monitors for many years by now (dubbed multi-head), other pc vendors following the suit, yet you'd be hard pressed to see anything good coming from that technology regarding games.
Even my universal remote control has touch screen, which is very convenient I must add and is a Sony product.
CPUs at certain speed can render polygons there is nothing new about that either, it is likely pure SW like in GBA, with adding some Mode 7/rotate-zoom effect if you like.

For the record I do have a gba and a ps2

These things are not worth arguing over, PSP is an exceptional hardware for a portable system (practically a ps2) and the clear winner hardware wise, it is not even comparable to DS, completely different league. So is the price tag
However DS will be cheap (hopefully), aimed at kids, at a kiddy price, with kiddie games and the usual N goodies. PSP is targeted to an almost completely different audience, those adults or youngsters who already have a ps2, or likely to buy one, with more adult oriented titles, hyped multi-media support, like movies etc. Basically a new kind of walkman. Whether Sony can pull it off is a different matter, e.g Minidisc was a major flop.

Last edited by IFW; 14 May 2004 at 13:44.
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Old 14 May 2004, 13:32   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by manicx
I know very well what technology and design is since this is my job.
Doesn't look like. Design is my career and what you say obviously shows you don't know what design is. I cannot help but remind myself about your misconception of freelance working.
Quote:
These are not strong arguments in there I have to say. Game consoles are not for kids.
Your arguments are strong? Someone who has not used a speech recognition system has strong arguments to support a voice recognition system? Give me a break. If you want me to learn about wiFi, you go and learn about Voice Recognition and design.

By the way, who said GAME CONSOLES ARE FOR KIDS? I said the DS is aimed at a young market. Like any previous Gameboy product. That doesn't mean adults can't use/buy it. Your fanboyism is creeping in and I don't like arguing with fanboys. I'll repeat myself in this thread, as I said both machines I like and I would want, since they are so different you can have both. But you have to say " DIZ ONE ROOLZ THE OTHER ONE SUX"

Just read IFW's post.

Last edited by Akira; 14 May 2004 at 13:39.
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Old 14 May 2004, 14:04   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by manicx
You like to assign labels Antiriad, don't you? Wasn't you that you clearly stated that you dislike Nintendo first? A 'Anti Nintendo fanboy' maybe? I personally only bought a Gameboy. I have nothing else from Nintendo and I generally buy products that I feel they are better than others, not products that are in the opposition of the products I hate.
No, I merely said the screens looks small. I never said it was crap or that it was doomed to failure.

And I cant be arsed to have another argument with you, be it over Amiga Power, the Atari ST or Sensible Soccer.
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Old 14 May 2004, 16:25   #57
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For a start, I agree with IFW that voice recognition is pure software. A month ago, I developed a voice mail system for my company. This is based in voice recognition and so far the tests have been going well. It's all about proper programming actually and I won't use the voice recognition of Mac or MS or whatever as an example about Voice Recognition being crap.

A correction to IFW though. The DS has TWO CPUs, an Arm7 and an Arm9. You can easily dedicate the Arm9 to the gaming and the Arm7 on other tasks. Considering that Nintendo has been good in providing the necessary APIs to developers, 'playing' with the two CPUs can be a joy. Although the PSP has powerful hardware, I am not sure whether it matters that the DS will have less polygons than the PS when you view a screen so small that you can hardly see the difference.

My perception about handhelds is not to provide the best hardware but the best support. This is where Nintendo has an advantage in my opinion. Also, Nintendo has always designing hardware with the rest of their systems in mind. The DS will also play GBA games which is great.

Regarding the target audience, they both target to the same market. Even if the case is for Nintendo to target the kids' market and the Sony the adult market, this is a pure suicide for Sony. I am not sure how many 18+ year old people would like a huge device just to play games in the bus, the train and so on. People are more interested in other things after a point, unless you expect a 40 year old man taking out a PSP and playing games while sitting beside his wife and kids (who apparently will have a DS ). If Sony targets this market, the PSP is dead already but I doubt the target market is this. They both are targeting the same market. If they were not, they wouldn't feel so antagonistic already. After all, I see nothing that makes the PS2 more adult than the Gamecube or the N64. I've see both kids and adults using them.
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Old 14 May 2004, 16:41   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Akira
Let me repeat myself

Handheld
HAND HELD
HANDHELD
If I describe a Boeing 747 as a "handheld", does this somehow make it true? It may be called a "handheld", but if the PSP eats batteries and is similar in size to a Lynx, I can't really see anyone using it as they would a GBA (ie. on a bus, or more than 30 seconds from an electrical outlet).
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Old 14 May 2004, 16:41   #59
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I agree, but the price point is the selector for the target audience.
$350 vs $150. I would buy a handheld that may be broken in a few months for my kid for $150, the same thing cannot be said about a $350 machine... I would snap that for myself instead
Loads of adult people are communting or would like to play a quick game in a tea break, or lunch time etc.
They are the ones getting the PSP. Count me in.
It is pretty evident that there is zero profit, if not loss is on the $350 price, while the DS device uses existing technology, that has become very cheap due to mass market manufacturing of the GBA, so the device itself will be profitable, or at least leave Nintendo enough freedom to give substantial margin to retailers, while Sony may be at loss for some time - if the customer won't buy a few games at least every week.
It is certainly not just piracy that made the decision to only Sony manufacturing UMD disks, and don't let even develpers to have access to them.
I am fairly sure the DS is specced the way it is to re-use existing manufacturing potential, while in the case of PSP that is doubtful to say the least, unless to phase ps2 production completely out in favour of PSP, and push PS3 ahead.

Sony has pretty much hijacked adult, mainstream gaming from previous players in the field, the N, Sega, Amiga folks are grown up now. While some may stick with a N product many chose what was the best for their more mature interest in gaming, that's why PS2 has a massive target audience, and that's why PSP could ever get a green light.

ps: consider what you need for even semi-decent voice processing and the 66mhz cpu is already occupied
The same thing cannot be said on the 330 mhz one.

Last edited by IFW; 14 May 2004 at 16:47.
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Old 14 May 2004, 19:00   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ian
Thought they increased the vram size after the developers told them "not to be so silly"?
Maybe FromWithin could confirm this,but AFAIK, I was sure they did too.
Given the likely possible multifunctions of the PSP,(if you can believe the speculation, eg:MP4 music/video releases in the UMD format, along with games etc.),& therefore the higher pricepoint it'll obviously be aimed at the older market initially.

One thing to remember Manicx. Sony made a rather large success of the 18+ market with the PS1, which Nintendo & Sega both badly underestimated at the time.

I'll just be curious from a gameplay viewpoint if the DS can make a winner of itself-the potential is there for it to be a gaming irritant as much as it being handy.
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