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Old 26 August 2001, 01:43   #1
Bombjacker
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Eek Why 3D is good!

Some of you geezers seem to knock 3D, but 3D is good. 3D gave us Elite, Starglider 1 and 2, Stunt Car Racer, the original Star Wars arcade game - all retro classics. Just remember games are just games and they are either good or bad, whether 2D or 3D.

Another thing is the bashing of PC's. I do not love them but does anyone know a better machine for playing Star Wars related games on? I don't and guess what? They are all in 3D!:eek

Can anyone remember any more classic 3D games on the Amiga?
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Old 26 August 2001, 02:03   #2
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First of all, Star Wars ANYTHING sucks ass.
Second, you make an excellent point. The 3D and 2D worlds have their good and bad...but I think PC bashing here means the pitiful OS we have to put up with. Windoze stinks. and if we want to play our fave PC games, we need Wondoze. Thats BAD!

The 3D bashing is becuse lately, all we see is the shit 3D view..EVERY FUCKIN game I look at, it seems, has some FUCKIN gun pointing at someone, from the players point of sight.
I say ENOUGH!!
Why must one particular genre push all others to the sideline???
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Old 26 August 2001, 02:25   #3
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3D is fine, but when it becomes the norm, it gets boring.

Since the original Quake (which first introduced a true 3D enviroment, as opposed to 3D mapping by 2d characters) very little has changed. Visual effects have got better, but that can be put down to better hardware, and the MS DX API more than innovative coding.
 
Old 26 August 2001, 02:35   #4
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Well I must agree that you do have a point here. Difference between most new 3D games and the ones you mentioned is the quality of play. The games were innovative and not just some product following other games in a neat straight line (Well not most of them now).

There are some new 3D games which I have enjoyed myself, but they lose their charm too quickly for my taste. Instead of concentrating on making a great game the team instead concentrates on the graphics with 3D engine and effects. Of course I know most gamers will probably hate the game if it isn't able to give out good graphics, but all this attention to the graphics and effects make them forget that they should make games which aren't just spinoffs of other games. Doom was a copy of Wolfenstein and since then it's been going that way mostly. Usually it's shoot anything that moves. Then some bright guy thought of adding people whom you should not shoot (Well whom you don't NEED to shoot) and there have also been other new effects, but essentially the 3D shooters are basically still the same game with slightly improved effects and usually a disturbing lack of quality and creativity.

The same for most other games which use 3D like some RTS games. Of course it might look great that you have all the control of the view, but still if they had proper graphics artists the games would look much better than some of their attempts at making 3D rendered figures.

Some people tend to think that all game categories possible have been invented. I think they're wrong. All it takes is a guy with a good idea to create a new gametype. This could be 3D or good old 2D graphics, but to be able to market the game you'd need to have good graphics and to many people good graphics mean 3D acceleration. 3D acceleration can save a lot of work if you just have a talented artist to make 3D models and skins, but if you were able to do it 2D you'd have more control of what it looks like in the game and it would be a lot less demanding on the system leaving more resources to the actual gameplay in the case that it's demanding.

I don't hate 3D as such, I just think it's sad to see everyone hop on the 3D bandwagon and think that if they can just produce enough eyecandy gameplay and inventiveness doesn't matter a bit. It's even worse that the majority of consumers don't really mind as long as it looks good.
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Old 26 August 2001, 02:47   #5
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I love 3D, with Quake being one of my all time favourite games (not my favourite though).

Quote:
First of all, Star Wars ANYTHING sucks ass.
I beg to differ. Alot of these Star Wars games suck! But, Star Wars: Pod Racer was really cool. The Star Wars game on the C64/Amiga/Arcade was very fun too (probably the most playable of the lot). Dark Forces and Jedi Knight were also very fun (looking forward to number 3)

Just felt like saying that
 
Old 26 August 2001, 02:52   #6
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http://gamespot.com/gamespot/stories...807816,00.html

According to that link, now anyone with a computer can create a 3D game....That could kill the industry with a flood of shitty 3D games....if you ask me
 
Old 26 August 2001, 03:04   #7
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AmigaBoy. I stand corrected. I , being a retrogamer, DO love StarWars and ESB on the NES. They were very high quality.
I just hated the Tie Fighter games for the PC, back when it and Descent were all people played:P
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Old 26 August 2001, 03:16   #8
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Quote:
Originally posted by fredtgreat

I just hated the Tie Fighter games for the PC, back when it and Descent were all people played:P
You make me cry, FTG... I was a nationally rated Descent 2 player. I travelled the country playing in tournaments, and occasionally won prizes (Ah, the ol' bachelor life). I even Emcee'd a few, too.

As far as X-Wing/Tie Fighter, they were excellent in their day, on par with the legendary Wing Commander. The NEW crop of Star Wars games are terrible, though, Episode One games outcrappifying them all.
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Old 26 August 2001, 06:16   #9
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Quote:
Originally posted by Amigaboy
That could kill the industry with a flood of shitty 3D games....if you ask me
Excuse me, that happened already, without Joe Bloggs getting involved

My stance is NOT against 3D games. There are exceptions. As Drake says, today, they make 3D just for the fucking eyecandy, forget about the gameplay, and end up with shite. MOst 3D games are done BADLY. I haven't seen any other 3D roamabouter as good as Mario 64. The rest are arse.

And 3D remakes of old 2D games are the worse disease to happen. They always destroy the gameplay for adding a third dimension in the wrong way.

And the market flood is what makes me sick of 3D. And teh attitude of the people towards 2D games, even worse. They automatically regard something as crap if the GFX are not 3D. That's what I really hate.
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Old 26 August 2001, 16:16   #10
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To all those that ars upset with the current games market -

DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT!

Stop whinging, do a course in game design. Yes, they do exist and change the way games are going by coming up with an original idea!.

RE: Star Wars

Some of the best Star War games happen to be on the PC as far as I am concerned. Dark Forces and X-Wing Alliance are probably the best examples. There have been some 2D Star Wars games on the SNES, but they were merely ok, short-lived experiences. Although I must agree about the Episode One games, they are virtually all pretty bad. Pod Racer being about as good as it gets and that wasn't upto much!

I also must agree with the comments made about too many FPS and RTS games on the PC. But then look at most 2D shmups. Don't get me wrong I do enjoy them, but there is little difference between a lot of them. Shoot lots of space ships or whatever, collect extra weapons, kill end of level boss.

3D updates are not necessaily a bad idea, as long as the developers put thought into the gameplay and don't just think that making it 3D will mean its a better game. Zelda and Mario on the N64 are excellent examples of what can be done. They are very playable and are two of the best games ever created. They have much more depth than most 2D games you are ever likely to play.


God I wish I never started this thread! Remember games are just games and shouldn't be taken too seriously. Just play what you like and ignore what you don't!

There are enough games out there already to keep most people satisfied!

True game addicts will play any type of game and appreciate it as long as it good (i.e. it plays well). Fact is many of these FPS games do play well. So I play them. I like to play some of the old 2D games, especially of the arcade and console variety, so I play them. I like to play some of my old Amiga favourites, so I play them!

Stop the dissing and I only diss when something truely is crap!
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Old 26 August 2001, 23:47   #11
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Quote:
Originally posted by Bombjacker
To all those that ars upset with the current games market -

DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT!

Stop whining, do a course in game design. Yes, they do exist and change the way games are going by coming up with an original idea!.

I don;t agree with the last bit of this. I think something needs to be done, but I think it should start from a games buyer standpoint. BOYCOTT the softcos for developing crap, son't buy their shit, don't buy the umpteenth FPS game that gets churned out for the PC. That's what should need to happen for them to realize you are sick of'em. This happened with the Genesis/Megadrive. They released so many friging shmups, that people got sick of them. They stopped buying them, the flow decreased.

even if you do take a course in game design, and you do come up with an original idea, what softco will buy it? None, because they stick only to succesful formulas. No great softco is going to risk the cash in yoru crazy new idea, no matter how good it might sound. At least not here in the west.

Quote:
I also must agree with the comments made about too many FPS and RTS games on the PC. But then look at most 2D shmups. Don't get me wrong I do enjoy them, but there is little difference between a lot of them. Shoot lots of space ships or whatever, collect extra weapons, kill end of level boss.
We agree that a game type has its basics that tend to stick, like you say, however, game after game after game of same old, same old, gets boring. most FPS games are just like teh previous one but with neater graphics. They all use the same fucking engine, fer pete's sake! There are TOO MANY FPS games out there, and that needs to stop. And they are all in the same stupid platform. It's like the Megadrive shmup flood, ten times worse.

Quote:
3D updates are not necessaily a bad idea, as long as the developers put thought into the gameplay and don't just think that making it 3D will mean its a better game. Zelda and Mario on the N64 are excellent examples of what can be done. They are very playable and are two of the best games ever created. They have much more depth than most 2D games you are ever likely to play.
Well, as I said, Mario 64 is the only 3D roamabouter done right. The rest is pish.

Konami made Contra 3D... they killed it.
Konami made Castlevania 3D... they killed it (luckily they made it right now on the GBA)
Galaga in 3D... need I say more?

Most games get screwed up. Adding another 'dimension' to the gameplay is not such a trivial task, a LOT of thought needs to be done to not screw up the original's idea. R-Type Delta is done right, BUT they stuck with 2D gameplay, while using 3D graphics. What I like to call 2.5D. 2.5D is cool with me. (again, if done right)


End of rant, for now
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Old 27 August 2001, 01:12   #12
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Well Akira, you now make your point perfectly clear and I agree to some point about the boycotting! But game styles have always come and gone. There will be a time when the softcos have to be a bit more original, coz the market will get so drenched that they wont get enuf sales. However, if one works for a softco it would be a lot easier to sell an idea.

Your rant on 3D is bad tho. Zelda on the N64 is a very good game and its in



3D


I have just thought of another good 3D game and its retro - Sentinel. I loved that game. One may laugh but I think its good. A bit slow on the Amiga though, and even slower on the Spectrum! The PSone version wasn't bad due to the better speed.


Anyway most of you have missed the point of the thread! Its point really was to discuss when 3D was good (ie in the Amiga days - read my first original post, I am too lazy to quote!), which it is, its just got a bit boring lately, except for Crazy Taxi, Tony Hawkes, Mario 64, Daytona 2001, Goldeneye, Blast Corps, MSR, Driver, Jet Set Radio and a few more!

Long live Sega and Nintendo - 'you are our only hope'
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Old 27 August 2001, 01:29   #13
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All the games you mention

Apart from Mario 64 and Crazy Taxi are shit IMO.

Anyway back to the subject matter, how in the hell could you forget F1 GP (World Circuit in America I think) by Microprose an offence punishable with death in some countries you know.
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Old 27 August 2001, 01:37   #14
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I somehow believe that you are talking out of your posterier. If all those games are shit, well, we can't all have taste. Maybe you should ask the brain surgeon for a refund!

Sorry for forgetting to mention Microprose Grand Prix. I consider myself chastised. Its a fantastic game. Shame about the screen update though, the jerkiness does hamper the handling a bit but at the time it couldn't be beaten and is still good to play!

Someone out there must like Sentinel! It was different at least!
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Old 27 August 2001, 02:20   #15
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The last 3D game I've really enjoyed was No One Lives Forever. I finished it in three days coz I only play until the end really really good games.

Other examples of games played without resting:

Ambermoon (Amiga Emu) - The best two weeks I spent in front of a computer -

The Dark Heart of Uukrul (PC)
Wizardry VII (PC)
Amberstar (PC)
The Magic Candle II (PC)
Broken Sword II (PC)
Nebulus (CPC)
Rick Dangerous (CPC)
Batman the Movie (CPC)
Turrican I, II, III (Amiga Emu)

Damn Ambermoon. After playing it I'll never enjoy other RPGs. It's simply the best.
 
Old 27 August 2001, 02:22   #16
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Zelda is not a 3D roamabouter Bombjack, and I never said it was bad. So your assumptions come from nowhere.

Tony Hawk's = Skate or Die
Goldeneye = yet another FPS

Jet grind Radio, I do like. Daytona is good. and if you metnion Daytona why ad danother car racing game...

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Old 27 August 2001, 03:02   #17
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Quote:
Originally posted by Akira
Zelda is not a 3D roamabouter Bombjack
On the N64, it is a 3D roamabouter
 
Old 27 August 2001, 04:06   #18
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Zelda 64 is more like an RPG... with 3D roamabouter I mean 3D 'platformer ' (where the fuck are the platforms in them anyway? )

Even if it is one, it's good.
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Old 27 August 2001, 04:23   #19
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Platforms are vestigal, ghostly remnants of a bygone gaming device. Ignore them and you'll be safe, Akira.
I'd say they are analagous to the appendix in humans, or our tailbone, the coccyx.
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Old 27 August 2001, 09:19   #20
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I really don't think anyone on here could possibly hate 3D games -- and especially FPS games -- as much as me. I hated them from day one and will always abhor all of it.

But rather than rant (which is my trademark), sicken yourself by visiting this link I stumbled across on ebay. I think it puts FPS and 3D games in their proper perspective. Don't get vomit on your keyboard...

http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI...tem=1630310629

'nuff said!
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