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Old 03 November 2003, 00:34   #41
Akira
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Unknown, yes, the 8100 is a NuBus machine. Piece of shite that NuBus, I do want a PCI one.

As for those people who love Windows, have they tried enough other platforms to compare and decide they really love it? And that people who love PCs and hate Windows, since 90% or so of PC users run Windows.. how do you explain that and why don't they move? If you go to school and the big guy keeps beating you up, would you still want to go to school? Would you say "The school RAWKS, this guy beats me up everyday but the school rocks and I still want to go there". It's kind of massochist innit?

And something about Mac application support. Someone up here (kolorabi?) mentioned lackl of apps. Please. That is not the case with macs, it is with A1s and Linux. All the professional apps I need for work are available for mac and, IMO, work better in the OS X environment than in windows.

I have used shitloads of OSes and I chose what's best for me, which has the best balance of stability, reliability, user-friendliness and important third-party support. In the case of the PC I have never been able to switch to other OS, because while they have offered me better stability and reliability than Windows, none has offered the thirdparty support I need. Sorry, but I HAVE to work with these tools, and no, for example, The GIMP is not enough for me, though it's a very good free app.

If I were to use my PC for HOME use, I would choose any of the platforms available, and if I chose the PC I WOULD NOT chose Windows as my operating system.
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Old 03 November 2003, 06:08   #42
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Quote:
Originally posted by kolorabi


The problem for the A1, Mac (the only Mac-only game that was tempting for non-Mac owners was Escape Velocity: Nova, and now that's available for Windows too, along with the rest of the EV series) and Linux is software support.
What planet are you from? I was just at a Apple store today and it's mind blowing.
Mac software support is superb, with the best apps on the best OS.
Linux is far ahead of A4 on software support.
A4 owners have the worst of it. But even tht platform has superb apps, albeit few.
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Old 03 November 2003, 06:17   #43
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Quote:
Originally posted by Frederic
What planet are you from? I was just at a Apple store today and it's mind blowing.
Mac software support is superb, with the best apps on the best OS.
Linux is far ahead of A4 on software support.
A4 owners have the worst of it. But even tht platform has superb apps, albeit few.
When the mac can run autocad, chemcad, flowtherm, testpoint, and 100's of other design and engineering programs then you can say it has the best programs on the best os.

Thats just 1 niche market thats owned by wintel hardware.
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Old 03 November 2003, 08:18   #44
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Originally posted by Unknown_K
Thats just 1 niche market thats owned by wintel hardware.
Your logic is similar to that of Fred's. Just because one or more niche markets are not "owned" by Macs means that the Mac has no great thirdparty support? Or that A LOT of the best applications are available for it? Are the "best" programs only those YOU consider to be the best?

As the niche market analyzer you are you should understand why me, being in the design industry, preffers the Macintosh platform, without coming up with all that "You can do the same with a PC for ten times less money" bullshit. Even when the same tools are available for PC, they run and FEEL better at Macs. I bet Apple pays shitloads of cash for this to keep going. I am sure that if there were no such interests the same application could be made to run the same on both platforms, but the reality is that it isn't. For one example, you have the Altivec optimizations in Photoshop.

OS X is without doubts the only OS you can get that has the best balance of thirdparty support, stability and user-friendliness. And this does not come from a narrow-minded mac zealot who bought it from day 1 and kept with them to the end. I have been on the Amiga until 1997 and then got onto the PC somehow even when I wanted to stick with Motorola and switch to Macs. Nothing on the PC platform offers me that balance, unless I dual-boot or something, which is impractical. I had Linux and windows on my PC some years ago but I got sick of it, I am just not a home user for computers, and for home uses I can use whatever, my Amiga does what I need already (and I have an 030)
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Old 03 November 2003, 12:07   #45
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Quote:
Originally posted by Unknown_K
When the mac can run autocad, chemcad, flowtherm, testpoint, and 100's of other design and engineering programs then you can say it has the best programs on the best os.

Thats just 1 niche market thats owned by wintel hardware.
The Mac had AutoCad ages ago, has it been discontinued?
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Old 03 November 2003, 13:11   #46
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Quote:
Originally posted by Frederic
What planet are you from?
Earth. Are you? :-)
Quote:
I was just at a Apple store today and it's mind blowing.
Mac software support is superb, with the best apps on the best OS.
Most of the great mac apps are available for Windows too, and if that's not the case, there are equivalent apps that do the same job. In a few rare cases, the mac has an edge, but that's mostly in niches which most users are either not interested in or perfectly able to make do with what they've got on Windows.

And with regards to games, there are a lot of quality titles available, but most are ports of Windows games. And if they're not, they usually find their way onto Windows if they're good.

The very fact that the mac survives despite all this is the reason I have some hope for the AmigaOne as well.
Quote:
Linux is far ahead of A4 on software support.
A4 owners have the worst of it. But even tht platform has superb apps, albeit few. [/B]
Linux has Wine, which is good for gamers. But as someone (Unknown_K?) pointed out, most Linux owners have some version of Windows or other available. If the Linux market is to take off, it needs good Linux-only games, and so far the majority of commercial games for Linux (that I know of) are ports of Windows games (which is stupid, as again, most Linux owners also own Windows).
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Old 03 November 2003, 14:44   #47
Fred the Fop
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I don't think you understood my point.
You had denigrated Mac for lack of software support, and I showed you that you were incorrect, you did not bring up the not about the exclusivity of mac apps.
Once again the tack you are on about Windows not having this and that.
And the pure logic of Mac OS makes the apps that much better.

Akira with regards to your comment about my logic, it is sound, because comparing the dearth of publishing for OS4 with the glut of publishing with OS X or Windows is non sequitor.
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Old 03 November 2003, 16:25   #48
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Quote:
Originally posted by Pyromania
The Mac had AutoCad ages ago, has it been discontinued?
Yes, a very long time ago.
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Old 03 November 2003, 16:31   #49
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I was not questionoing your logic Fred, I was telling Unknown_K, who semed to strongly disagree with you, that he was usin ga similar approach

Kolorabi: First off I'm discussing in this thread leaving games aside. I don't care about the games. If to judge by games yes, the PC has shitloads more of them. But they all suck, so I don't care if they get ported or not. I game on consoles, period. but that's just different points of view.

"Most of the great mac apps are available for Windows too, and if that's not the case, there are equivalent apps that do the same job"
Read my message. How much time have you worked with the Macintosh platform to let you ASSURE that the same apps for Windows work as well on windows as they work on Mac OS? If you would have worked with them for as much as I, you would realize that's a complete fallacy.

And with the "and if that's not the case, there are equivalent apps that do the same job" thinking in mind, I would not be mad using the Macintosh, the Amiga1 or Linux, since there are similar apps for all these platforms that could kind of do the job correctly.

I'll repeat myself, GIMP is great, but it cannot replace Photoshop or Fireworks.
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Old 03 November 2003, 16:43   #50
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Quote:
Originally posted by Akira
I was not questionoing your logic Fred, I was telling Unknown_K, who semed to strongly disagree with you, that he was usin ga similar approach

Kolorabi: First off I'm discussing in this thread leaving games aside. I don't care about the games. If to judge by games yes, the PC has shitloads more of them. But they all suck, so I don't care if they get ported or not. I game on consoles, period. but that's just different points of view.

"Most of the great mac apps are available for Windows too, and if that's not the case, there are equivalent apps that do the same job"
Read my message. How much time have you worked with the Macintosh platform to let you ASSURE that the same apps for Windows work as well on windows as they work on Mac OS? If you would have worked with them for as much as I, you would realize that's a complete fallacy.

And with the "and if that's not the case, there are equivalent apps that do the same job" thinking in mind, I would not be mad using the Macintosh, the Amiga1 or Linux, since there are similar apps for all these platforms that could kind of do the job correctly.

I'll repeat myself, GIMP is great, but it cannot replace Photoshop or Fireworks.
I was just disagreeing about the "best apps" thing he said because in the nich of engineering there are alot of apps that the mac platform just doesnt have that I need.

Anyway the casual home users could probably use any of the supported machines listed to browse the web, check email, play a few lame games, do small office projects, etc.


I would rule out any platform that doesnt have a quicken port because I have seen quite a few older people pay $800 for a computer just to ballence their checkbooks on quicken.
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Old 03 November 2003, 16:49   #51
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Quote:
Originally posted by Akira
If to judge by games yes, the PC has shitloads more of them. But they all suck, so I don't care if they get ported or not.
Halflife sucks
GTA3 VC sucks
Max Payne (2) sucks
C&C sucks
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
(add your own here)
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Old 03 November 2003, 16:54   #52
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Quote:
Originally posted by manicx
Halflife sucks
GTA3 VC sucks
Max Payne (2) sucks
C&C sucks
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
(add your own here)
How many people say a game sucks because it isnt offered on their systems? This is the standard reply from game console users who chose system x while system y has a good game.

Anyway games that sell a million copies on the PC must not suck for somebody even if you dont like it (I hate the simms but it sells like crazy go figure). Thats the thing with PC gaming, something for everybody not just the 1 or 2 games you either play or go watch tv.
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Old 03 November 2003, 17:45   #53
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@Severin

hmmm, I wdn't worry about the masses, no point knocking
yourself out. People are always going to want to be
reassured and good solid reasons to do anything.

I take it you acquired your first Amiga in 1986 like I
did... I now own about 30 complete systems, including
4 A4000's and never owned anything else. I spent an
incredible amount of money in the early days and in
recent years had a field day picking up stuff for bugger
all *heh* about time ,)

I will buy the top of the line A1 system and probably
a Pegasos II system too... and I cd've give one toss
about the future of the hardware and software... even
as things stand today it'll do more than enough to
justify the lousy low price...

Remember the days when one freaking Amiga board cost
more than the entire A1 system...

The Amiga isn't a cpu as much as it is a lifestyle...

Adios! and perhaps you're right on target when you
suggested you wander off into the outback for peace of
mind if nothing else ,)
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Old 03 November 2003, 20:17   #54
kolorabi
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Quote:
Originally posted by Frederic
I don't think you understood my point.
You had denigrated Mac for lack of software support, and I showed you that you were incorrect, you did not bring up the not about the exclusivity of mac apps.
I'm primarily a gamer, so games are what I focus on. As for other apps, there's enough of them for the Mac to make Mac owners happy and satisfied. Problem is that if I had no computer right now, and I were to buy a computer based on the availablillity of apps, I'd choose a Windows based PC.
Quote:
Once again the tack you are on about Windows not having this and that.
And the pure logic of Mac OS makes the apps that much better.
I don't understand that logic.
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Old 03 November 2003, 20:25   #55
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Quote:
Originally posted by Slayer
@Severin

hmmm, I wdn't worry about the masses, no point knocking
yourself out. People are always going to want to be
reassured and good solid reasons to do anything.

I take it you acquired your first Amiga in 1986 like I
did... I now own about 30 complete systems, including
4 A4000's and never owned anything else. I spent an
incredible amount of money in the early days and in
recent years had a field day picking up stuff for bugger
all *heh* about time ,)

I will buy the top of the line A1 system and probably
a Pegasos II system too... and I cd've give one toss
about the future of the hardware and software... even
as things stand today it'll do more than enough to
justify the lousy low price...

Remember the days when one freaking Amiga board cost
more than the entire A1 system...

The Amiga isn't a cpu as much as it is a lifestyle...

Adios! and perhaps you're right on target when you
suggested you wander off into the outback for peace of
mind if nothing else ,)
30 amiga systems? Now thats a fanatic for you! You are the person the A1 is aimed at, I wonder how many of you there really are these days.

Out of curiosity how many of the 30 are just parts machines and what do you do with the remainder?
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Old 03 November 2003, 20:27   #56
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Quote:
Originally posted by Akira
Kolorabi: First off I'm discussing in this thread leaving games aside. I don't care about the games. If to judge by games yes, the PC has shitloads more of them. But they all suck, so I don't care if they get ported or not. I game on consoles, period. but that's just different points of view.
Sure, that's a valid point of view. As a games journalist (who work on both PC and PS2 games), I know that there are enough excellent PC games around to last a lifetime. The statement that all PC games suck is way off.

My P.O.V. is as a gamer who know my way around computers, so games matter for _me_.
Quote:
"Most of the great mac apps are available for Windows too, and if that's not the case, there are equivalent apps that do the same job"
Read my message. How much time have you worked with the Macintosh platform to let you ASSURE that the same apps for Windows work as well on windows as they work on Mac OS? If you would have worked with them for as much as I, you would realize that's a complete fallacy.
During my education, I spent a lot of time on macs (using photoshop, mostly), and I do not think mac apps feel better than Windows apps.

There are most likely apps that work better on the mac than the PC, and as I said there are areas where the mac is superior. In general, though, it's quite clear that Windows is the platform to use if you want the most choice in apps.
Quote:
And with the "and if that's not the case, there are equivalent apps that do the same job" thinking in mind, I would not be mad using the Macintosh, the Amiga1 or Linux, since there are similar apps for all these platforms that could kind of do the job correctly.
This is true.
Quote:
I'll repeat myself, GIMP is great, but it cannot replace Photoshop or Fireworks. [/B]
Photoshop is available on Windows too, you know.
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Old 04 November 2003, 01:27   #57
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Quote:
Originally posted by Slayer
I take it you acquired your first Amiga in 1986 like I did... I now own about 30 complete systems, including 4 A4000's and never owned anything else. I spent an incredible amount of money in the early days and in recent years had a field day picking up stuff for bugger all *heh* about time ,)

I will buy the top of the line A1 system and probably a Pegasos II system too... and I cd've give one toss about the future of the hardware and software... even as things stand today it'll do more than enough to justify the lousy low price...

Remember the days when one freaking Amiga board cost more than the entire A1 system...

The Amiga isn't a cpu as much as it is a lifestyle...
I got my A1000 on the 1st October, 1985, one of the first batch to arrive in the U.K.

atm I have 3 amiga's, A1, A4k and an A1200 somewhere. I remember paying 220 for an external floppy drive, 400+ for a 1081, and a vast amount for the 256k ram pack for my A1000. Even in the 90's it was 500 for a 105Mb scsi harddrive and IVS Trumpcard for the 2000 I had then, 800 for an 040/28 accelerator, 350 for P-IV + paloma, around 500 for my 060

Long live the Amiga lifestyle
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Old 04 November 2003, 07:53   #58
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Quote:
Originally posted by kolorabi During my education, I spent a lot of time on macs (using photoshop, mostly), and I do not think mac apps feel better than Windows apps.
[...]
Photoshop is available on Windows too, you know. [/B]
This will reply to both statements.
Photoshop on the Mac takes advantage of the Altivec set of instructions. How does Photoshop take advantage of special PC hardware? It doesn't. Where is the forthcoming Adobe CS pack coming to? PC? No.Will it get ported to PC? yes. Will it feel and work the same or better? No. why? Because Apple pays shitloads of money for this to stay this way. Macintosh has been the choice for creative professional work for years, and Apple knows how to take good care of their niche.

When was the last time you used Mac OS? Are you, perchance, comparing your experience with OS8 or earlier machines with the experience you have now with Windows XP machines? Wouldn't that be like comparing CP/M with BSD?
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Old 04 November 2003, 08:12   #59
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Quote:
Originally posted by Akira
This will reply to both statements.
Photoshop on the Mac takes advantage of the Altivec set of instructions. How does Photoshop take advantage of special PC hardware? It doesn't. Where is the forthcoming Adobe CS pack coming to? PC? No.Will it get ported to PC? yes. Will it feel and work the same or better? No. why? Because Apple pays shitloads of money for this to stay this way. Macintosh has been the choice for creative professional work for years, and Apple knows how to take good care of their niche.

When was the last time you used Mac OS? Are you, perchance, comparing your experience with OS8 or earlier machines with the experience you have now with Windows XP machines? Wouldn't that be like comparing CP/M with BSD?
Are you saying photoshop doesnt use mmx , sse , or sse2 on the pc side ; which is basically the same thing as altivec?
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Old 04 November 2003, 16:42   #60
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Quote:
Originally posted by Unknown_K
30 amiga systems? Now thats a fanatic for you! You are the person the A1 is aimed at, I wonder how many of you there really are these days.

Out of curiosity how many of the 30 are just parts machines and what do you do with the remainder?
Not alot I wdn't think; a fact that may be important to
the average cpu joe bloggs but I'm totally indifferent.

The only machines considered to be parts would be some
of the many A500 units I have.

Out of the other platforms that I have roughly that all
go are: 4 A4000's 1 A3000T 7 A2000's 5 CD32's 1 A1200
(yes, I destroyed my other 2 by a stupid mistake :P)
3 A600's and about 12 Amiga 500's. etc etc, many addons
one of the A4000's is a Towered 233mhz CSPPC/060.

Once I get my butt into full motion I plan to program
and also electronics... I think you can guess the mad
rest ,)
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