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Old 01 November 2003, 21:38   #21
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Quote:
Originally posted by jmmijo
I understand that but I think the same thing would apply, Apple in their not so infinite wisdom, would not allow such a thing to occur
Nothing they could do about it.
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Old 01 November 2003, 21:41   #22
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I beg to differ, but hey, since this is all hyperbole anyways, it makes no difference either way
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Old 01 November 2003, 22:04   #23
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Originally posted by Unknown_K
\and adding a card that takes over the mac and turns it into a PPC amiga.
as you may know there has been an effort before of making an "Amiga in PCI card" thing, which terribly failed. for one, custom chipsetry is not to be found aywhere, and if you want just a PPC Amiga with no custom chipset (like the Amiga 1) you don't need no blimmin card, it's all already THERE in a PPC Mac. So all you would need is an emu like Amithlon for the Mac, or something just as good as winUAE.

As for disk drives etc, you can install a Catweasel Mk3 in your Mac, but the lack of a decent Amiga emu for Mac makes this worth for nothing.
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Old 01 November 2003, 22:05   #24
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I know somebody who was buying replacement mac motherboards to build complete mac system had his supply cut, but those were factory authorised replacement boards sold to people who had a system with a bad board (at a discount I think). There is nothing apple can do with people who buy complete and functional systems and put an addin card into them. Its not like your modding an xbox to play ripped xbox games. You not bypassing anything on the mac just booting a different non-mac os. People dont get in trouble for ditching macos and running linux do they?
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Old 01 November 2003, 22:22   #25
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Originally posted by Unknown_K
Well if you like waiting a decade then maybe OS 4 will ship and support 160 chipsets. By then maybe a few people will have written a couple apps and maybe a few games for it. There isnt enough money and programmers behind it to make it viable in my opinion.
hmmm, Ok, I made a mistake it's 150 chipsets, here is a list of the supported ones...

Have a delve in the forums at amigaworld.com, there a few lists of programs that are being or have been ported to OS4 (Pagestream 4.1 for example, beats the crap out of anything else on other platforms)...

If you all knew what I do, that I'm not allowed to tell anyone, then you wouldn't be so pesimistic...

lets just say things are alot better than you think
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Old 01 November 2003, 23:11   #26
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Quote:
Originally posted by Severin
hmmm, Ok, I made a mistake it's 150 chipsets, here is a list of the supported ones...

Have a delve in the forums at amigaworld.com, there a few lists of programs that are being or have been ported to OS4 (Pagestream 4.1 for example, beats the crap out of anything else on other platforms)...

If you all knew what I do, that I'm not allowed to tell anyone, then you wouldn't be so pesimistic...

lets just say things are alot better than you think
Every time I hear all the hush hush top secret talk I know somebody is full of shit.

Does that make sense? We have a platform here we want to sell you but we cant tell you anything that will run on it because its a secret.. wink wink. So just go buy the system you idiot and maybe we will tell you after we have your money that your an idiot.

Anyway a port for a software package thats already out on mainstream systems doesnt make people switch to a platform becuase somebody MIGHT port it to the amigaone.
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Old 02 November 2003, 00:07   #27
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What I can't tell you is nothing to do with what software will run, or even the general public, it's about different markets, and some deals being made...

Most of it's not 'top secret, hush, hush' stuff, it's just that with the amount of crap flying around certain forums and the amount of 'twisting' of any info they get their hands on, the upcoming court case etc., that decisions have been made not to release any news until the public launch.

Go and read CAM, or recent TAM issues, visit amigaworld.com...

It seems to me that this forum has changed alot of the year I've been here, early on there was alot of 'proper' amiga users, doing all sorts of things, but recently it seems to be mostly UAE gamers who havn't got a clue what they want in a new amiga or even if they do want one, apart from the fact that it's got to be 100% AGA compatible and play all the old miggy games perfectly but also have all the latest pc games ported to it...

It could be time to wander off into the outback of the net and find somewhere not so games orientated
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Old 02 November 2003, 01:33   #28
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Quote:
Originally posted by Severin
What I can't tell you is nothing to do with what software will run, or even the general public, it's about different markets, and some deals being made...

Most of it's not 'top secret, hush, hush' stuff, it's just that with the amount of crap flying around certain forums and the amount of 'twisting' of any info they get their hands on, the upcoming court case etc., that decisions have been made not to release any news until the public launch.

Go and read CAM, or recent TAM issues, visit amigaworld.com...

It seems to me that this forum has changed alot of the year I've been here, early on there was alot of 'proper' amiga users, doing all sorts of things, but recently it seems to be mostly UAE gamers who havn't got a clue what they want in a new amiga or even if they do want one, apart from the fact that it's got to be 100% AGA compatible and play all the old miggy games perfectly but also have all the latest pc games ported to it...

It could be time to wander off into the outback of the net and find somewhere not so games orientated
Getting into different markets is a step in the correct direction.

There are a few people here who use the amiga for non game programs, I am not one of them. I also dont use UAE, I play the original games on the original hardware as they were meant to be played.

If your wondering if I am going to buy OS 4 with new amiga hardware I have to say that unless there is a compelling application that I cant get on the platforms I do have then no I wont. I am sure a few people here will get one just to say they have one, but this wont keep a platform alive.

Porting PC games to any platform is the kiss of death. A few companies tried to port FPS games and other types to the linux platform but nobody wants to play PC ports 6 months to a year after they have them on a PC. You have to provide new content to make any money. If a new style of game i like was made for amiga OS 4 only then I would think about getting the new amiga platform. I dont think I would spend $1500+ for a new platform that just emulates the old A1200 since I already have that and its cheap.

I dont think wondering off to a non games oriented forum will help you much since its just limiting your focus group. Besides a few diehard video toaster users and the old retro gaming people who actually uses the real amiga hardware anymore anyway? A platform cant be launched in a vacuum. Keeping things hush hush just lets rumours run wild or worse kills any interest in the project before its done.

Anyway I wish the amiga OS and platform luck, since I like choices.
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Old 02 November 2003, 02:05   #29
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Originally posted by Unknown_K
Anyway I wish the amiga OS and platform luck, since I like choices.
Thanks for the positive thinking Unknown_K
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Old 02 November 2003, 02:40   #30
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Quote:
Originally posted by Unknown_K
Getting into different markets is a step in the correct direction.
Yep, the following info was published in the last couple of issues of TAM (Total Amiga Magazine).

They're looking at the 'kiosk' type applications where the amiga did well in the past, but also the server market... for an average medium sized ISP, they reckon that using the MicroA1 (ITX) will save the company 100,000 per year just for electricity and take up a quarter of the space, then there's vastly reduced running temperature of G3 cpu's compared to intel/amd, add to that a system that if it crashes will restart itself within 10 seconds unless something really serious has happened...
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Old 02 November 2003, 02:50   #31
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Quote:
Originally posted by Severin
Yep, the following info was published in the last couple of issues of TAM (Total Amiga Magazine).

They're looking at the 'kiosk' type applications where the amiga did well in the past, but also the server market... for an average medium sized ISP, they reckon that using the MicroA1 (ITX) will save the company 100,000 per year just for electricity and take up a quarter of the space, then there's vastly reduced running temperature of G3 cpu's compared to intel/amd, add to that a system that if it crashes will restart itself within 10 seconds unless something really serious has happened...
I like it when people see a need and have a logical solution. I have a g3-400 in an upgraded pm7500 mac and I like how it just has a small heatsink (no fan) and doesnt get very warm at all even if its crunching numbers a while. Its rare to see a processor faster then 200mhz that isnt generating alot of heat these days.
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Old 02 November 2003, 06:06   #32
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Porting PC games to any platform is the kiss of death. A few companies tried to port FPS games and other types to the linux platform but nobody wants to play PC ports 6 months to a year after they have them on a PC.
Of course, if you supply "alternative" operating systems to people that already have a Win-PC, you will always be facing the same problems:

1. Windows will always have bigger games, the games will be available sooner or they will be a lot cheaper.

2. Everybody has Windows, and everybody can supply your users with Windows *****. If not, they can buy a magazine and get a CoverCD with an older version of an application that would be pretty damn expensive if they would have to buy it for *your* OS.

3. It's a psychological problem: Windows is your customer's main OS (that's what he's used to, he has a wide range of applications installed, etc.). He already has a (Windows-) application that performs task X - if somebody presents him an alternative running on your OS, he's going to ask: "Is it better than the one I already have? Is it superior enough to justify spending money on it?"

You're never going to establish a market for commercial developers this way. Just look at Linux: The OS itself is a tremendous success - I can buy a Linux distribution at pretty much every supermarket around here. But there's no market for commercial developers (I'm talking about desktop applications, not server tools). Believe it or not, the market for commercial Linux games is smaller than the Amiga games market.

Most users (not geeks/coders) will install Linux, play with the supplied applications, and still use Windows for pretty much everything else. You will not find Linux users that completely got rid of Windows.

With the AmigaOne (or the Mac, the approach is pretty much the same), the situation is different: Windows is suddenly degraded, it's no longer the user's primary choice. They have spent a lot of money on their new computer, they're not going to use it as a gimmick besides Windows. You don't have to be better than Windows anymore (in terms of availability of games/applications/content), it's sufficient if you're nearly as good as Windows. The Mac does not have any "killer applications" anymore, yet people are still buying Macs.

Of course you still need to convince people to "switch", but there are a lot of possible advantages that could attract customers:

1. The better OS (that's what makes people buy Macs): Faster, cleaner, more intuitive, more eye candy, more security, more whatever, easier to understand/control etc.

2. The "Hey, look - I'm different" - factor (another reason for people to buy macs): "Think Different - Apple Macintosh"

3. The "geek"-factor: "It's brand new, it's cool, it's well documented - let's play with it".

4. People are fed up with Windows: All around me, people are installing Linux to "have a look at it" - and we're talking about the most complicated and user-unfriendly OS I've seen in the last ten years! If they're going to upgrade to a new computer, they might aswell choose your solution, if it provides more or less the same functionality as "that damn Windows".

Please stop telling that "you need to be better than Windows" tale - one doesn't have to be better than Windows. 100.000 - 200.000 customers might be sufficient to create a viable market for developers. That would be a good starting point. This is not about "Amiga vs. Microsoft", it's about finding enough niches to enable other people (software developers, magazine editors, dealers, corporate support staff) to make money with your platform.

Quote:
You have to provide new content to make any money. If a new style of game i like was made for amiga OS 4 only then I would think about getting the new amiga platform.
Well, obviously you are not interested in the AmigaOne. But there are millions of people interested in Macs - according to your logic, they shouldn't

Quote:
I dont think I would spend $1500+ for a new platform that just emulates the old A1200 since I already have that and its cheap.
Of course, the AmigaOne will have to get cheaper. The good news is: it will get cheaper in time.
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Old 02 November 2003, 09:42   #33
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Originally posted by Unknown_K
I have a g3-400 in an upgraded pm7500 mac and I like how it just has a small heatsink (no fan) and doesnt get very warm at all even if its crunching numbers a while.
hey! How much does one of these cost today>? I have a PowerMac 8100/80, which I would like to upgrade to G3... si it an addon board or should I remove the 601 in there?
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Old 02 November 2003, 18:02   #34
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Quote:
Originally posted by Akira
hey! How much does one of these cost today>? I have a PowerMac 8100/80, which I would like to upgrade to G3... si it an addon board or should I remove the 601 in there?
]


The 8100 is a nubus machine isnt it? If so the upgrades are still expensive. I think you can find a PCI powermac upgrade for $100 or so. I got mine maybe 2-3 years ago and it was $249 new from sonnet. Try ebay or www.lowendmac.com swaplist they have used processors on the swaplist all the time, think I seen one for udner $100 recently. You can also find a PCI powermac 7500/8500/9500/ etc dirt cheap these days.
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Old 02 November 2003, 18:31   #35
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Quote:
Originally posted by Korodny
@Unknown_K;


Of course, if you supply "alternative" operating systems to people that already have a Win-PC, you will always be facing the same problems:

1. Windows will always have bigger games, the games will be available sooner or they will be a lot cheaper.

2. Everybody has Windows, and everybody can supply your users with Windows *****. If not, they can buy a magazine and get a CoverCD with an older version of an application that would be pretty damn expensive if they would have to buy it for *your* OS.

3. It's a psychological problem: Windows is your customer's main OS (that's what he's used to, he has a wide range of applications installed, etc.). He already has a (Windows-) application that performs task X - if somebody presents him an alternative running on your OS, he's going to ask: "Is it better than the one I already have? Is it superior enough to justify spending money on it?"

You're never going to establish a market for commercial developers this way. Just look at Linux: The OS itself is a tremendous success - I can buy a Linux distribution at pretty much every supermarket around here. But there's no market for commercial developers (I'm talking about desktop applications, not server tools). Believe it or not, the market for commercial Linux games is smaller than the Amiga games market.

Most users (not geeks/coders) will install Linux, play with the supplied applications, and still use Windows for pretty much everything else. You will not find Linux users that completely got rid of Windows.

With the AmigaOne (or the Mac, the approach is pretty much the same), the situation is different: Windows is suddenly degraded, it's no longer the user's primary choice. They have spent a lot of money on their new computer, they're not going to use it as a gimmick besides Windows. You don't have to be better than Windows anymore (in terms of availability of games/applications/content), it's sufficient if you're nearly as good as Windows. The Mac does not have any "killer applications" anymore, yet people are still buying Macs.

Of course you still need to convince people to "switch", but there are a lot of possible advantages that could attract customers:

1. The better OS (that's what makes people buy Macs): Faster, cleaner, more intuitive, more eye candy, more security, more whatever, easier to understand/control etc.

2. The "Hey, look - I'm different" - factor (another reason for people to buy macs): "Think Different - Apple Macintosh"

3. The "geek"-factor: "It's brand new, it's cool, it's well documented - let's play with it".

4. People are fed up with Windows: All around me, people are installing Linux to "have a look at it" - and we're talking about the most complicated and user-unfriendly OS I've seen in the last ten years! If they're going to upgrade to a new computer, they might aswell choose your solution, if it provides more or less the same functionality as "that damn Windows".

Please stop telling that "you need to be better than Windows" tale - one doesn't have to be better than Windows. 100.000 - 200.000 customers might be sufficient to create a viable market for developers. That would be a good starting point. This is not about "Amiga vs. Microsoft", it's about finding enough niches to enable other people (software developers, magazine editors, dealers, corporate support staff) to make money with your platform.


Well, obviously you are not interested in the AmigaOne. But there are millions of people interested in Macs - according to your logic, they shouldn't


Of course, the AmigaOne will have to get cheaper. The good news is: it will get cheaper in time.
I see you have been smoking the crack pipe today.

Just about everybody who needs a computer has one today. They either run windows, macos of some sort, linux (yes there are linux only users go check slashdot.com someday and here them), and some diehard os/2, beos, amiga os, dos, etc.

Maybe you and your 2 close friends are fed up with windows on their old pentiums using windows 95, but the people I talk to love windows xp and 2k. XP and 2k are more stable then any of the 9x/me variations before them. I actually had a better os (os/2) early in the game but stayed with windows 3.1/95 because of the software available and the hardwar support.

The millions of people interested in macs have been using macs since they came out over a decade ago. They like the platform and are heavily invested in it so most stay with it and a few switch to other platforms (market share is dropping slowly). Did you hear all the bullshit that happened when apple quit the 68k and went ppc or when OSX was first anounced? Even mac fanatics dont like change that much within their own product line. They are not buying the macos they are buying the platform with whatever OS jobs packages with it. Its the platform silly not the OS. How many non apple users jump to the mac because of the think different bullshit campaign?

You assume there are people lining up to ditch their intel or mac platform to buy a super expensive unsupported amigaone? The unit doesnt have to initially be better then windows or macos? It doesnt even have to have developers for people to jump to it? 100,000 to 200,000 customers to a niche market would be enough for that niche to exist, but you have to have the hardware/software already done to attract the market not the other way around.

This IS an amiga vs wintel vs apple debate since you have to get people to switch from one of those platforms to the amiga. this isnt the 80's when the home computer was rare, they are in every house.. sometimes even more then 1 in each house. People dont even worry about the os or its cost because its INCLUDED with their new computer wether its windows, macos, lindows, etc. Maybe if the amigaone come out after the a1200 in the early 90's you would have a captive crowd waiting for the upgrade but even the most fanatic amiga users have moved on to the other platforms. You have to convince them to change back.

The amigaone will get cheaper because it gets more obsolete and the prices for the other machines get cheaper at the same time so thats not a winning proposition. What do most A1's come with a g3? You think a powermac user will ditch a g4 or a g5 for a g3? You think intel users would ditch a p4/64bit amd for one? Computers are still sold on processor speed you know, thats why the mac was hurting until the g5 came.

I dont understand how people in this day and age of mature platforms, tons of marketing, established niches, plentiful software, cheap new pc's,and good devolpers a person will jump ship for the completely unsupported A1. If you can find a niche like the other poster mentioned it will work out, but to think you can compete on the bullshit you wrote up top is insane.
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Old 02 November 2003, 20:00   #36
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[B]
Maybe you and your 2 close friends are fed up with windows on their old pentiums using windows 95, but the people I talk to love windows xp and 2k. XP and 2k are more stable then any of the 9x/me variations before them. I actually had a better os (os/2) early in the game but stayed with windows 3.1/95 because of the software available and the hardwar support.
I do not know anyone who love Windows. I know a lot of people who defend the PC (and are against consoles), but I don't know a soul who defend the OS. Most people here think it's crap, and are totally fed up with it.

The problem for the A1, Mac (the only Mac-only game that was tempting for non-Mac owners was Escape Velocity: Nova, and now that's available for Windows too, along with the rest of the EV series) and Linux is software support. We're not changing from Windows because it's got the best games, apps and pretty much everything else. It just sucks to use it in between games.
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Old 02 November 2003, 20:31   #37
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Quote:
Originally posted by kolorabi
I do not know anyone who love Windows. I know a lot of people who defend the PC (and are against consoles), but I don't know a soul who defend the OS. Most people here think it's crap, and are totally fed up with it.

The problem for the A1, Mac (the only Mac-only game that was tempting for non-Mac owners was Escape Velocity: Nova, and now that's available for Windows too, along with the rest of the EV series) and Linux is software support. We're not changing from Windows because it's got the best games, apps and pretty much everything else. It just sucks to use it in between games.
I like consoles and think windows 2000 is more of my liking then Xp. When I said people like xp I was referring to people in the USA. I dont know what people in the UK and the rest of europe think.

I believe the most popular mac only game series was marathon 1, 2, 3.

And from what you said its the apps and games that keep you on the platform (same as me and most everybody else). Even though you dont like the OS much your still a windows platform user so a better OS wont make you switch unless there is quality softare which is what I keep telling people who think amiga os will make people switch platforms.
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Old 02 November 2003, 21:09   #38
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but even the most fanatic amiga users have moved on to the other platforms.
No I haven't

Quote:
What do most A1's come with a g3?
G4 (933MHz)...
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Old 02 November 2003, 21:21   #39
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[B]I like consoles and think windows 2000 is more of my liking then Xp. When I said people like xp I was referring to people in the USA. I dont know what people in the UK and the rest of europe think.
Ok, there may ofcourse be trans-atlantic differences.
Quote:
I believe the most popular mac only game series was marathon 1, 2, 3.
But they weren't really that hot from the standpoint of a Windows user (who had/have a lot of choice with regards to 1st person shooters). And it's ancient history now (no matter how good the games were back in the day). :-) The EV series was a bit different in that there were very little like it on the PC, and it's just recently been ported.

As for Marathon, I know at least the second one was released on Windows, and the source to the first one was released so there's probably a Windows version around.
Quote:
And from what you said its the apps and games that keep you on the platform (same as me and most everybody else). Even though you dont like the OS much your still a windows platform user so a better OS wont make you switch unless there is quality softare which is what I keep telling people who think amiga os will make people switch platforms.
Yeah, and you've got a few good points, but I'm not as pessimistic as you. The problem is that there's a vicious circle - most people won't buy the A1 because of the lack of good software, which means that most developers will stay clear of it because of the lack of a customer base, which means that the lack of good software will continue, which means... you get the picture.

But if it get a killer app in some niche or other, things might change. It might start out as a computer that only "geeks" buy or something like that, but if enough of them buy it, it might get interesting for developers of other apps/games too. And then it might get interesting for more customers. I don't think it's particularily likely that it'll become a hit, but equally I don't think it's wise to rule it out as a viable alternative platform either.
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Old 02 November 2003, 22:10   #40
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I think its hard for any platform besides consoles and windows/mac pcs to have decent video games made for them because they are too dam expensive to produce anymore. The cost of getting into game publishing these days is very high because of all the artists and tools needed.

I know the europeans have a slightly different idea what is a good home computer because the spectrum, atari st, and amiga were alot more popular in europe then they were in the US. I'm not sure if it was because of the cost of home computers, or just a different style.

Is anybody following the commodoreone project? That system will sell well to the c64 geeks because it looks like its 100% compatible with the c64 but with quite a few up to date features plus its not priced out of the geek market (anything under $300).
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