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Old 09 September 2003, 20:00   #41
IFW
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Actually what IanS says is very true, just there is one slight problem... In a normal work contract you find you are unhappy with your employer/partner after 45 days at most usually, since that is the time when payment is due, after each and every month you work there, plus 15 days for the slowest bank transfers...
However a publishing deal is very different. You are working for years, may have some stage payment and only get ripped-off once your product is in production and selling out wide. More over no company will ever provide monthly accounting for such a deal it is more likely to be quarters or longer period.
Crooks always make sure you think everything is fine and promptly work out any problems so long your work is not finished. They run with the real money afterwards, when you are no longer needed.
That is you will notice you are "unhappy" after say two years of development time plus about the second quarter you do not receive your due payment (most people think for the first quarter, that it is understable that they are "in progress" and other bullshit)
So compare "awareness of unhappiness factor" - tm & (c) by IFW - of 45 days with 2.5 years on average. That's a pretty huge difference. We are now luckily live in the internet era and so it is easier to warn potential victims of those crooks of what to expect. If they still think they'd manage fine they got what they deserve, I can agree with that.
The reason why you may still not publish your work as free is simple: if by any chance you can find someone with enough money to get the bastards sued, or you want to retain your IP for future products, if you publish your stuff (does not matter that it is yours) your case is nullified about claims of unpaid money and/or it gets much more complicated, not worth pursuing ever even if you could later.

Last edited by IFW; 09 September 2003 at 20:08.
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Old 10 September 2003, 12:36   #42
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Quote:
Originally posted by IFW
No, EU ("civilized world" rotfl) is not as good as you think as of yet.
Someday hopefully it will be, but it could be decades still.
We are at the period the US was more than a hundred years ago about creating a federal system with common rights, common laws, common money, common military, common policy etc.
At the moment you'd be in really deep shit - ok you are very rich so maybe not, but others will be - if you had a court case about a publishing deal busted not in your country, Greece.
All cases mentioned btw are people dealing with a company not in their own country)
Sure you have the rights, but without big money your rights exist only on paper, period. It is more than likely you won't be able to fight for them (minus you rich folks). While setting up a page about what happened may look in a world where money is not of concern and developers are expected to give away their work for free so others can sell them without paying the authors... unprofessional, it is the only thing Bernie and other can do. Rest assured they've tried everything within their budget to resolve the matters before going to public - the last thing that dies is hope. When they were sure all their money was lost they made aware the people about what the company does - so don't blame them to have the right for at least to let the world now what happened; a world that may be still buying the product in good faith thinking the money goes to the right hands.
Mate, I am sorry to say that, but you don't have an idea what you are talking about. The level of European countries is so high comparing to the States that any comparisson between the two is out of question. Europe is a more healthy place comparing to America and this shows at the moment. Worst IT scandals occured in the US, you like it or not. Europe has always been more CIVILISED comparing to America. No offence to my American pals, but this is a fact and nobody can argue on that.

As for contracts and money, you only need balls. If you have balls, you can go after it. If you don't, you just hide behind a webpage. A contract has more value than you can ever imagine. You don't have to be rich also and I am not rich BTW. After all, you said that programmers are not rich, so how can I be rich when I am a programmer? BTW, there have been many cases across the world were people were ripped off by companies and they sued them and won. They actually did that with large companies. How did they do it? Simple:

If H&P have been such bastards, people who got ripped off by them could actually get one lawer and pay the expenses of the court together and demand their money. But as I said, they probably missed the small font in the contract and they are scared. There is no "I Can't", there is only "I don't want to". Keep this in mind because you may need this one day. Just a friendly advice.
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Old 10 September 2003, 16:28   #43
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Work? What's work?
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Old 10 September 2003, 16:36   #44
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Quote:
Originally posted by IanS
Work? What's work?
I have Nooooooooooo idea.
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Old 10 September 2003, 18:54   #45
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"but you don't have an idea what you are talking about"
I do and let's just keep it this way, no need to go back on freelancers and stuff.
"this is a fact and nobody can argue on that. "
Indeed, it is evident.
People can't put even more money together for going after such bastards, I think the lack of enough funds strictly escapes your perception of the real world.
I can understand that kind of money is nothing to you, but for others it is easily the price of a house at a minimum. "Ordinary people" - the "loosers" - quite often pay for houses for 20 years or similar. So risking that kind of money after not getting paid for years is not an option, no matter what you think. In fact should you even come to the same situation I ask you to come back here and share your experiences
[ok this was evil: I do not wish this to happen to anyone, but your pov will change drastically regardless]
You will look after paying back your debts instead or feed your family and so on.
Pretty weird.
Discussing real world issues versus pure faith is really pointless, so I say no more.
So to sum the moral of this thread: I really wish I was in your shoes and living in Greece. Your environment sounds an utopia to me, so enjoy it while it lasts.
Peace.
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Old 10 September 2003, 19:19   #46
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So you're saying that contracts aren't worth the paper they're written on? In which case why do employers spend so much money having contract lawyers making sure they are watertight? I don't know where you are from IFW, but I'm glad I don't live there. Nobody is saying it is EASY to do these things, but these things can be done (and they are done!). Hell, I bet you can even take out insurance against such things in the good old USA. Along with medical insurance and whatever else you need over there.

Anyway, this is getting boring. Good luck to H & P and all who work for them. I think the Amiga may be worse off without them...
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Old 10 September 2003, 19:51   #47
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Actually these are *not work contracts*, those are completely different and very simple things, how often should I repeat that.
And hence you pay your insurance health care whatever yourself, you do not have an employer.
You are talking about a completely different thing, something granted vs I talk about a publishing deal something only granted under certain circumstances where your publisher is actually willing to fulfill his part of the contract, which is quite often not the case if the temptation is high enough.
Yes, I say unless you have a very solid financial background and you are still dealing in a foreign country as an author, the publishing deals are always strictly the risk of you and you will get ripped off way far easier than you could possibly imagine.
Contracts that were made simply by the idea of ripping those foreigners off and laugh worth not even the paper they are written on.
You don't believe how these things do happen and why or in fact they happen at all - fine I don't care anymore, as this disbelief thing and complete lack of empathy and understanding of real world scenarios versus Ally McBeal and other dreamworld crap is getting very old.
Please do a search On Metin Seven - I guess he will be marked by this logic a "looser" as well.
As a final note: I know many such rip-off people in the UK, so your remark is a very big miss about not living in a country like that. (btw: just for something recent search on Vincent Pike, from the UK...)
The point is: it does not matter at all which country it is, it is the people and their intentions that does matter.
There are crooks in all countries and it is not the fault of the country, it is the fault of the person.

And I second it: good luck for everyone

Last edited by IFW; 10 September 2003 at 20:17.
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Old 10 September 2003, 21:22   #48
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Aha, contracts for work are simple? Glad you know all about these. And of course, any contracts for goods to be provided, created or designed are different... glad you told me that too. Did I say that there are no problems with such things in the UK? Nope, not would I dare make such a silly statement. However, I think you are talking rubbish. Sorry, but you are. If you can show me that YOU are an expert in Contract Law, I'll bow down to your superior knowledge. Otherwise, you should stop getting your issues crossed over. Contracts do not have to be in writing, but it helps. Contracts for employment are just contracts like any other. Contracts provide the terms for both parties, and their responsibilities. Simple Offer and Acceptance applies to just about all contracts.

Go study some law...

Sorry if I sound rude!
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Old 10 September 2003, 21:45   #49
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I understand both sides

Amiga software companies are small companies today 1 or 2 person and even "small" problems can be a big problem..

Nobody haven't make much many with amiga for long time.

Everyone who thinks to became ritch with amiga is stupid.

H&P have to be a some sort of hobby, nobody can't make enough many for living with amiga software.

Yes it is wrong to not pay a salary to employees, but if they don't have money?

Should they sell their houses to pay?
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Old 10 September 2003, 21:54   #50
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You simply ignore all the the things I've written for whatever purpose. Possibly you still do not realize we are talking about different issues and not what a contract should ensure in theory.
You are constantly ignoring that I am talking about people who do not intend to fulfill a contract and are very hard to go after, and impossible without big chunks of money.
I won't repeat this again, again and again.

Btw: A in company law. Thank you very much.
My grades are none of your concern, and are unrelated to talks about crooks, it is a very poor argument tactics to make the other ones' point invalid by questioning competence - so I don't fall for it, like I don't ask "How about you?" That would indeed be poor and would still have nothing to do with posts about con artists
Please read on conversational terror for more
Absolutely unrelated to what I wrote as it is about problems you face, not about what is written on a piece of paper, or any other other form, if there is no intention to keep it.

Ok, if this makes you happy: yes, you are very rude and ignorant

Last edited by IFW; 10 September 2003 at 22:12.
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Old 10 September 2003, 22:00   #51
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Re: I understand both sides

Quote:
Originally posted by utri007

Should they sell their houses to pay? [/B]
Depends... Actually if you have a work contract it is easier to go after your employer - no sales to prove etc, just fulfillment of contract clauses - , but will take some time and money both.

But I guess by your post that people think I am talking about H&P, while in fact I wrote the answers about a very good point raised by Manicx about why people don't sue, how they get ripped-off in the first place etc. in the publishing world (not employment)
Sorry, if it caused any confusion to anyone.

[some supermod might move related posts to a separate thread for later reference as this is a very common question and some developers on this board can answer it in detail...]

Last edited by IFW; 10 September 2003 at 22:05.
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Old 10 September 2003, 22:33   #52
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Re: I understand both sides

Quote:
Originally posted by utri007
[BEveryone who thinks to became ritch with amiga is stupid.
[/B]
You are unaware of a simple, yet interesting fact.

Since the amiga doesn't get commercial support anymroe (well, barely none) there are a bunch of zealotic arseholes out there who would buy ANY PIECE OF TURD commercially developed for the Amiga. This user base is stable and very loyal, and means quite an amount of cash actually.
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Old 11 September 2003, 00:48   #53
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Re: Re: I understand both sides

Quote:
Originally posted by Akira
(...) there are a bunch of zealotic arseholes out there
Where?

Quote:
Originally posted by Akira
(...) who would buy ANY PIECE OF TURD commercially developed for the Amiga.
You know, just today i saw a nutcase in Syberia, Russia that claims to be a son of god, is called jesus and goes around wearing a toga among his five thousand followers.

Isnt's that about the same amount AI\H&P et al have?

Your conversation about turds and a-holes disturbs me - i'm very sensitive ya see - but we have a local saying here that goes something like: "The flies change, but the s***'s the same."

And so it is.

The biblical tales recounted here, updated to Schwarzeneggeresque sofistication, of even ants being apparently able to sue hannibal's elephants for stomping, unfortunately, heat up the blood, beats up the true believers to a frenzy, but, just like many other faiths, are based on everything and anything, but the real world.

The notion that a single guy coding on the other side of the world can sue, win, and not enter the minus column in his dividends, let alone profit or be recompensated fully for his efforts and work and lost sleep, is so ludicrous for any digital atheist or pagan not under the grasp of the Jesus AI and it's handful of loyal pseudo-corporate apostles, that it barely deserves a replica.

What for? It's like explaining to any southern US cristian zealot that the idea that a baby named moses floated down the Nile river into noting less than the queen's backyard, or the idea a handfull of ravashing calamities affected a civilization, based on seasonal agriculture and therefore obsessed about meteriologic records and crop amounts recorded, without ever being noted in the smallest of papyrus, is absolutely and completely nonsensical and ludicrous.

Of course Noah's ark is in an icy mountain in Turkey! Sure.

Hey, it's faith. It works like this. I whish i had one myself, some desert semite beduoin i could relish, or some bouncing ball in could caress for hope in time of doubt.

Windows is readily using the white and red bouncing Amiga ball in it's out-of-the-box stock icons in XP, does Amiga Inc. sue Microsoft? Maybe they're 'unprofessional', or maybe, even, lack the 'balls'. Who knows why they don't sue?

Or maybe, just maybe, they know a bit more about work relations to the point they actually understand the difference between Freelance and Free work. And thus - understanding them - they don't sue.

Quote:
Originally posted by Akira
This user base is stable and very loyal, and means quite an amount of cash actually.
"Bow to Leper Messiah!"

Anyone here ever came across an album called 'Master of Puppets'? :P

Buy the next turd and go right into amiga heaven. I'm not shittin' ya. Pardon the pun.

I mean we're talking about people that are expecting computers and software out of a company that can't even pay it's electricity bills and rent. You know, like those guys that cut off their genitalia and expected to go in the giant spacship behind the comet?

Who knows, maybe they did.

Did you know that a freefall is when someone falls from a high place completely for free?

Me neither.

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Old 11 September 2003, 01:04   #54
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Re: I understand both sides

Quote:
Originally posted by utri007
Yes it is wrong to not pay a salary to employees, but if they don't have money?

Should they sell their houses to pay?
Hey, that's exactly why i've been a major proponment of programmer slavery! Been saying it for years, no one listens...

It just boggles my mind the very idea that there are still suckers out there that pay their employees. How dumb is that ?

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Old 11 September 2003, 01:53   #55
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Re: Re: Re: I understand both sides

Quote:
Originally posted by Fjrb
Where?
Right here in this thread.
And I don't know wtf you are trying to get to with your reply to my post.
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Old 11 September 2003, 09:46   #56
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Let's all bow to the superior knowledge of IFW and Fjrb! (Guys, I love what you are doing with CAPS, no shit about that, but you should seriously take the right pil and face the real world)!
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Old 11 September 2003, 11:57   #57
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They are speaking of real world experience - they've met quite a lot of very respectful developers and first hand experience as well -, which is in fact superior to theories - empirical vs theory can be quite different
I wish it was how you think it would be. It should have been that way in theory and you are perfectly right about that, but practice had been a completely different experience...!

Anyway about pills just one question remains: which one is the right to take, the red or the blue one? And which one have you taken? And will you finance a few cases, just to prove you are right - not big money just few hundred thousand usd...? I thought so...

Enough

Last edited by IFW; 11 September 2003 at 12:05.
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Old 11 September 2003, 12:19   #58
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I am not living in Uganda! I am living in a EU country, I lived in the UK and you are also living in ... ! I am working in the IT industry and I have experiences my self. You see, in the first case Fjrb ASSUMED I have nothing to do with IT, now it's you that you put yourself above anyone else by ASSUMING you have more experiences than the rest. Totally wrong. You are a guru when it comes to C.A.P.S. but you are a normal guy out of it just like the rest of us.

As for me, I helped Amiga when they were disintegrating and Amiga was just Petro Tyschencho win a case against a HUGE Publishing house in Greece that gave away the 3.1 roms in a CD. I got myself some knowledge on the business law and contracts back then if this of any interest on you. Since then I elevated my knowledge by getting involved on several issues regarding computing, IT and law. Last one was, last year, when games were banned for no apparent reason in Greece. We formed communities and took the issue to the court and for a discussion to the Parlamients. Not exactly clueless, don't you think?
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Old 11 September 2003, 12:39   #59
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In the way you described having quite a few cases experience that may put us above the rest here - minus devs here, who would tell exactly the same thing if they were bothered to post into such a pointlessly heated thread about real world vs dream world -, but the only one saying that is you, I've never ever claimed such thing, so please do not put words into my mouth.
In fact what I say is that the theory and practice does only match if you can afford it.
Also living in the EU.
So what...? Who cares? What if anyone was living in Uganda? Why do you bring up such ludicrous stuff, like living in Uganda? btw: at least one guy of EAB is from Africa, and if he reads this chances are you have been hurting his feelings with claims like that.
Also you see e.g. Australia is not part of the EU.
I work in the telecom industry, and I deal with extremely confidential stuff, from the gsm sector, banking sector and so on.
A small developer in any case without big money - ie. after not getting paid, being completely broke after years of development - have zero chance financing legal stuff in a foreign country.
I know whereof I speak very well, both first hand and second hand. So in that sense I am not like the most of you to make it clear now, my view is based on real world experiences and I know the theory just like you, and believed in it just like you, until the point came to see it working - or not.
Not exactly clueless either as you would put.

Last edited by IFW; 11 September 2003 at 12:53.
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Old 11 September 2003, 13:04   #60
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I didn't say you are clueless, I said you are the same as the rest of us. Speaking like you have life experience and others don't is not appropriare. After all, there are people in here who are 10 times me and you. I know very well that all you were saying up there was "Listen to the dad" and IanS was also offended by that. This is annoying to the rest of us. We all start from theory but we also start from deep shit unless you are a rich person who has a lot of money and a cool business. Most of us are middle class anyway...

My mistake about the Uganda example and no offence to anyone. Let's use as an example NothingWorksLand!
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