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Old 11 August 2003, 09:42   #21
Frootloop
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I remember trying the shareware version of Doom on my dad's computer and after playing it trying to convince myself that it wasn't that great of a game because my A1200 was obviously "better". I was a real Amiga zealot and could never admit that there were actually some cool PC games that the Amiga could never do. After that, I still wished the Amiga had something like Doom to show off to the PeeCee users so I'd download all the latest Doom-clone attempts off Aminet hoping a talented programmer could squeeze smooth fullscreen 3D out of my A1200. The closest one I found was Breathless which ran decent on my computer but I never payed much attention to the later games because they required fast accelerators.

It'd be interesting to set up a web site documenting the attempts to bring 3D games to the Amiga. It was interesting watching the progression to better and better engines.

Games I remember:

Gloom
Gloom Deluxe
Fears
Alien Breed 3D
Alien Breed TKG
Breathless
Trapped 1 & 2
Nemac IV
Genetic Speices
Testament

Any more commercial ones?
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Old 11 August 2003, 09:44   #22
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DOOM was fake 3d unlike quake which was really 3d. Why did the a1200 choke on doom?
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Old 11 August 2003, 10:02   #23
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Regardless of 3d being fake or not, you'd need a system capable of scaling and rotating sprites or layers at least for a Doom lookalike.
Unless you have sufficient hardware to support that solution you have to bend the textures over a specified area (polygon) yourself programmatically. Easy, but the only way to do it fast is on chunky pixels: 1...4 bytes representing a pixel, making it easily addressable from your shader, texture map, etc routine, not to mention direct blind writes to your framebuffer, instead of bit manipulation to get individual pixels. Unfortunately an a1200 sports only bitplane graphics where you have to address each pixel as many times as many bitplanes you use (e.g. 8 times on 256 colours), not to mention each access being bit manipulation, that involves RMW (read-modify-write) operations, unlike chunky mode where you can use just direct W (write) instructions.
The solution was to use:
1, chunky to planar conversion routines: taking an awful lot of processing time on a standard a1200, or using a very low resolution to save on operations.
2, use dedicated hardware, that's why developers demanded to have a c2p hardware in Akiko, the cd32 custom chipset. C= being as cheap as possible managed to screw even that with a "half-automated" solution.

This being the major bottleneck to start with you still have the very low cpu horse power that remains - shared with system activity/dma - to process 3d calculations, AI etc. Not very healthy, something is going to suffer.
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Old 11 August 2003, 10:53   #24
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doom could have been released for the amiga, playing doom several years later on a 030/50mhz was great ...

They said it couldnt be done, but it did ... If only doom was released for the amiga at that time, it would force a lot of users to upgrade their systems to 040/060`s and gfx cards ... sadly most people didnt want to spend money upgrading their amigas, instead using a lot of money buying shitty pc`s .....
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Old 11 August 2003, 18:42   #25
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@IFW. So the Akiko chip didn't resolve matters? I was always curious about it after The One,(& the other Amiga gaming mags), raved about it being in the CD32,& potentially allowing proper 256 colour PC style GFX for Syndicate,Wing Commander,Legends of Valour etc. 3D style ehanced games that the "normal" AGA amiga's couldn't handle at the time for the reasons you outlined.

After initial promises of enhanced ports of Syndicate,& Magic Carpet,Inferno,TFX etc. & other such intensive games,I was always curious how plans were quietly dropped-whilst the was the Amiga market meltdown,I was curious if maybe the "Chunky planer/byte per pixel", issues bandied about involving the Amiga's latter days groaning with these types of games, had actually been fixed by the Akkiko chip.
Were there any games that ever used it,I wonder? I know there was an enhanced Wing Commander in the CD32 CBM bundle.
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Old 11 August 2003, 19:18   #26
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The problem with that chip is that you have to make the conversion manually.
I don't remember most of the details, but it was lame indeed.
It is basically a serial to parallel converter, you write the source chunky pixels in a specific order that triggers the hw (super cheap logic, you got the reverse logic already on the video output), and read back the bitplane values.
It is considerably faster, than anything you could write in sw on a stock a1200, but still you have to make tons of memory accesses to read/write the values, only the middle processing is handled. Since we speak about a stock setup all the memory access is subject to bus arbitration on chip memory, that makes the whole experience painfully slow and wasteful.
A dedicated framebuffer would have helped a lot more.
Thing to notice: c2p was needed to compensate for p2c (actually s2p vs p2s) conversion present in the hw...
So even better for the miggy architecture, a trigger that would have turned on/off the already existant p2c hw... the reason why c2p conversion was needed in the first place
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Old 11 August 2003, 21:37   #27
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I guess its hard to modify a custom optimized chipset with off the shelf parts.
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Old 11 August 2003, 22:11   #28
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They were in full control of the chipset, so it would have been easy, just the solution I mentioned is not trivial.
They always thought along the lines of how the sw people make c2p work and replicate that in very cheap hw, instead of doing an easy and dedicated hw mod.
Turning off p2s hw does not involve anything off the shelf, just gating a few lines, plus some logic.
A framebuffer could be off the shelf, and was very cheap that time, they did not do that either.
They simply did not see how big this hw gap is going to grow, so they ignored the demand almost completely.
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Old 12 August 2003, 03:58   #29
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Quote:
Originally posted by Unknown_K
I never thaught demo's were a good indicator of what a machine could do because they used 100% of the resources of the machine just for eye candy and sound. Alot of the cpu power in some games goes for AI of the enemy, storing maps in memory, user interface, different levels and screens etc.

[...]

I can tell that AI in current games really take up cpu time like when I play Age Of Empires: The conquerors with 5 computers and 200 units each the xp1500 system slows down a bit.
I assume the AI in amiga games would be fighting for processor power also (and there is less to go around).
But the difference is that the processor on the Amiga would not be bogged down by every task passing through like with the PC. The custom chips allowed the other tasks to be parted out, leaving the CPU free for such operations without having the bottleneck the PC has to deal with.
Quote:
Originally posted by Mark Wright
I'm a firm believer that the influx of cutesy platform games on the Amiga in 1994-5 was against market demand and lead to many softies pulling out and jumping over to consoles where cutesy games had their natural home (children). At the same time, I think there was a massive demand (which largely went unfulfilled) for more games like Settlers, Syndicate, Gods, etc. which were always very popular with the Amiga's slightly more mature userbase, and were starting to gain ground on the PC thanks to the advent of 3D and faster processors.
I think your personal preference in gaming is skewing your perspective here. I always loved "cutesy platform games", as did all of my friends. None of us were 'children', we just preferred a different genre of gaming than the more serious (too serious, IMHO) gamers. By your rationale, all players of RPGs were AD&D geeks, strategy games were only played by nerds, etc. Likewise, players of the games you mentioned are not neccessarily more "mature" simply because you liked them. Oh, and Gods is considered a platform beat-em-up, so it belongs in the nursery with Nicky Boom.
Quote:
Originally posted by Mark Wright
But what could the Amiga stalwarts do when all they had in production was yet more cutesy platform games (that had been popular 1-2 years previous and hitherto showed no signs of abating) for a platform that was forced into hiatus?
I think you are overstating the platform games for the Amiga.

In 1994, there were almost 500 games released for the Amiga. Platformers ranked in that queue at about 64 (excluding duplications for multi-hardware releases). Many of those 64 some odd games were mere CD32 or AGA versions of older games.
The total number of 1995 platformers, according to HOL, is 29 (three are dupes and another was unreleased, so that number is actually more like 25). HOL's number for total games published in 1995 comes in at 264. Even once that number has been reduced to actual titles, the contrast is nowhere near the scenario of your speculation, which appears to have been derived from your disdain for the genre.

At the end of the day, the influx of cutesy platformers did not kill the Amiga. Sorry.
Quote:
Originally posted by Unknown_K
Just for a reference I went to amiga.mobygames.com and noted how many games they had listed over a few years for the amiga (to get some kind of idea of the platforms popularity from games released)
As Cody has already pointed out, a PC games site is a terrible resource for Amiga game stats. About like trusting Computer Gaming World for honest Amiga charts...
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Old 12 August 2003, 05:02   #30
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Quote:
Originally posted by Twistin'Ghost
But the difference is that the processor on the Amiga would not be bogged down by every task passing through like with the PC. The custom chips allowed the other tasks to be parted out, leaving the CPU free for such operations without having the bottleneck the PC has to deal with.

I think your personal preference in gaming is skewing your perspective here. I always loved "cutesy platform games", as did all of my friends. None of us were 'children', we just preferred a different genre of gaming than the more serious (too serious, IMHO) gamers. By your rationale, all players of RPGs were AD&D geeks, strategy games were only played by nerds, etc. Likewise, players of the games you mentioned are not neccessarily more "mature" simply because you liked them. Oh, and Gods is considered a platform beat-em-up, so it belongs in the nursery with Nicky Boom.

I think you are overstating the platform games for the Amiga.

In 1994, there were almost 500 games released for the Amiga. Platformers ranked in that queue at about 64 (excluding duplications for multi-hardware releases). Many of those 64 some odd games were mere CD32 or AGA versions of older games.
The total number of 1995 platformers, according to HOL, is 29 (three are dupes and another was unreleased, so that number is actually more like 25). HOL's number for total games published in 1995 comes in at 264. Even once that number has been reduced to actual titles, the contrast is nowhere near the scenario of your speculation, which appears to have been derived from your disdain for the genre.

At the end of the day, the influx of cutesy platformers did not kill the Amiga. Sorry.

As Cody has already pointed out, a PC games site is a terrible resource for Amiga game stats. About like trusting Computer Gaming World for honest Amiga charts...
I knew mobygames would not have the majority of amiga games released, but it would show a trend on the releases by year.
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Old 12 August 2003, 05:51   #31
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Just prior to the CBM collapse (which was the ultimate killer),you have to remember that the Amiga gaming market was between a rock & a hard place. Several of the larger famous developers like Graftgold,Sensible,Bullfrog,Bitmaps etc. were growing & (in order to survive),spread their development wings into the console market with some ports of their previous Amiga hits.

The biggest complaint I well remember in letters to The One etc., all were,"why can't we get Sonic on the Amiga" etc. With increasing concerns about the Amiga's future,it was only natural that as developers/publishers scaled back on Amiga stuff that they looked for titles that'd be quick,easy to convert within a 6-8month timeframe & which already had proven popular on SNES/Megadrive,(eg:Cool Spot, Lost Vikings,Addams Family,Alladin etc. to name a few).
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Old 13 August 2003, 04:04   #32
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Developers go where the money is at. Since Commodore was no more they would drop development like the companies that killed games for the dreamcast after sega called it quits (even though alot of quality games were well on the way to being done).
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Old 13 August 2003, 04:21   #33
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My personal turning point, was when Lucas Game didn't release playable games for the amiga Indy 4 was pain in the *** to play on floppy, and that was the last game they released for the amiga, after that it was time to buy a pc to be able to play cool adventure games.
Sadly today adventure games are dead, only few adv games are released and they are mainly crap.. looking forward to the new Lucas releases
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Old 13 August 2003, 04:33   #34
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dizzy
My personal turning point, was when Lucas Game didn't release playable games for the amiga Indy 4 was pain in the *** to play on floppy, and that was the last game they released for the amiga, after that it was time to buy a pc to be able to play cool adventure games.
Sadly today adventure games are dead, only few adv games are released and they are mainly crap.. looking forward to the new Lucas releases
Any time I get bored of the current games I load up the old classics (c64, amiga, dos) and play them a while.
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Old 14 August 2003, 16:35   #35
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Exclamation

Quote:
Originally posted by Dizzy
Sadly today adventure games are dead, only few adv games are released and they are mainly crap.. looking forward to the new Lucas releases
I'd hate to tell you Dizzy, but there'll be one less than you thought...
HERE
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Old 14 August 2003, 17:33   #36
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Originally posted by 7-Zark-7
I'd hate to tell you Dizzy, but there'll be one less than you thought...
HERE
Yes I saw it yesterday. I cryed all night. Full Throttle was one of my all time fav adventure game. Just to short....



Sad that cool company only produce crap games this days. Star Wars games sucks.
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Old 14 August 2003, 18:46   #37
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Unhappy

Yep, we can only hope that Sam & Max manages to make it out of the starting blocks.
Also Revolution are currently beavering away on Broken Sword 3, (albeit with a somewhat altered gamestyle & a "2.5D viewpoint", as I understand it-though the voice actor for the lead character George Stobbart is returning apparently! ),Here's hoping it does something to help revitalise things. FPS,can't pretend to rule the gaming roost forever.
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Old 14 August 2003, 20:32   #38
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I think Doom was the clincher... the one that stole the limelight from the Amiga. It was the game that caught people's imagination, and the poor old miggy had nothing to compare at the time. Breathless, Gloom, AB3D, TKG etc are good games (I have them all). Better in some ways than Doom, but they were too late, and really most Amiga owners didn't have the hardware upgrades (and still haven't!) to enable developers to play catchup. If the base Amiga had been an 030/25 or above with a hard drive, maybe we would have stood a chance.

Doom runs well on an 030, but isn't the Amiga version rewritten woth lots of optimised assembly code? And if not, as I said... how many Amigans had fast 030 chips at the time Doom came out?
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Old 14 August 2003, 20:38   #39
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Doom runs well on an 030, but isn't the Amiga version rewritten woth lots of optimised assembly code? And if not, as I said... how many Amigans had fast 030 chips at the time Doom came out?
It was certainly a combination of factors that lead to the Amiga losing out to the PC, but Doom played a large role. If ID _had_ released Doom for the Amiga in a timely fashion (yes, with some assembley optimisation), it might have encouraged more people to upgrade.

Upgrades would have become cheaper as a result. It might have given the machine a few more years of shelf life.
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Old 14 August 2003, 21:03   #40
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Originally posted by 7-Zark-7
Yep, we can only hope that Sam & Max manages to make it out of the starting blocks.
Also Revolution are currently beavering away on Broken Sword 3, (albeit with a somewhat altered gamestyle & a "2.5D viewpoint", as I understand it-though the voice actor for the lead character George Stobbart is returning apparently! ),Here's hoping it does something to help revitalise things. FPS,can't pretend to rule the gaming roost forever.
Yeah Broken sword is a good serie, but they have some annoying part, you sometimes can get past a point, when you nknow what to do, but you didn't ask a question back 4 screens, so you had to wander a lot.. And then it had a lot of bugs when the games crash. But a good story.
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