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Old 31 July 2003, 14:54   #21
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Ah an interesting point that... to redo an existing bad port or do a new one...that is the question dear Yorrick...

Im of the mind that a port of a well known game that should have been ported to the Amiga is a good start. As previously said, better to cut the mustard on a port than a new game.
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Old 31 July 2003, 15:52   #22
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Why port something????

If I wanna play sonic I'll load up WGens or put it on the Real Thing (TM)!!

We could do a similar style of game but lets not get drawn into doing a fookin port of an existing game just to "prove" the Amiga can do it!!!

I think the Amiga is more capable than that anyway...... and a good platform/shoot 'em up/beat 'em up would be great. but an original NEW one :P
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Old 31 July 2003, 16:55   #23
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I saw an amiga demo that a group did once which was basically the first level of sonic. they did it just to prove it could be done.

A good game that the amiga could handle would be Super Monkeyball Jnr or how about Advance Wars?
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Old 31 July 2003, 18:21   #24
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Originally posted by Big-Byte
I saw an amiga demo that a group did once which was basically the first level of sonic. they did it just to prove it could be done.
and it was shite. Either they were not serious about it, or they did it in an afternoon.

Originally posted by IFW
Let me quote someone here - it might sound familiar:
"Nothing beats the real thing" (TM)
Who said that?

I understand the point fully, and as I said, I see many "new" Amiga game releases being shit unofficial ports of said games, or ports from PC shite, so the state of affairs seems to be like the new Amiga games are all ports of games, and no original stuff. Difference is, they are done in "new style" and you need a bloody PPC or 060 to run most of them (not all)

Writing or porting a Genesis emulator to a stock A1200 is a no-no, as you might know.

The Sonic Team spent many man-years making the gameplay right.
Yes I agree completele, and this is the challenge I am looking most forward too.
As killergorilla said, it's an achievement to me. I am a HUGE Sonic fan and I have these games for breakfast, so having the gameplay just right is the key to this project's success, IMO. Having in mind this "port is shite" philosophy, I would have to look back then at Amiga games that were console or arcade ports, and say "These are all SHITE! Why didn't they make an original game?". Were those games shite in your opinion? I think they are not. You might say "Back then there was no emulation", and I agree. The thing here is take upon a conversion project like in the old days. It' more of a challenge, and I'd enjoy the end product a damn lot. why did this guy ported Sonic to the MSX if he could load up a PC and emulate it, or go out and buy the game and the console? Also, the experience with this project might lead to an original product from the same people, I don't know! This would be good too, the main idea here, as I said, is to generate a project and get it started. Mainly because I'd like to DO something for once, and because I am extremely disgusted by current Amiga productions. So instead of talking and talking and bashing these productions, I decided to start one on my own with a group of cool people.

Amiga was the synonym for innovation in its heyday.
As I said, today it is synonym of crap PC game ports and lame unofficial console/arcade ports.

As I said I was open to suggestions as to which would the starting project would be. How about porting something like Chu-Chu Rocket? Some guys did it for the Atari St, and I think it was brilliant.

Thanks for all the opinions and offers for help. I'll let you know how it all goes!
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Old 31 July 2003, 18:29   #25
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As I suggested before...

start small, then think big!

Do a simple but nice puzzle game, the Super Nintendo has hundreds of Japanese Puzzle games that never saw the light of day in Europe.

If you can inspire people to produce a puzzle game and see it through, then that is good, but I think until you do it, people will steer clear of something like Sonic. Its a lot of work, assuming everyone stays the course.

Try doing a Jap puzzle game, that way you will know for sure whos going to help, and who thinks they can help!
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Old 31 July 2003, 20:06   #26
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That's what I meant with " I have alternatives"

I was thinking of porting Puyo Puyo, or Magical Drop. These games rock.

By the way Galahad, how's your ST port project? I'd like to help!
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Old 31 July 2003, 20:10   #27
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Hey! Why not port Doom 3! I'm sure that will be a big hit .

But seriously, what about Golden Axe 2 or 3?
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Old 31 July 2003, 21:45   #28
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Novelty value of remakes come from the fact that they are upgraded to a better hardware than the one they were originally intended for.
We are talking about 10 years old hardware here, so consider the following...

Suppose you are a dissatisfied Amiga user, your platform has not seen much activity for years, but you were there in its heyday and enjoyed every moment of it.
You are fed up with PC ports, what now haunts your platform, though it is possible you can even only run those at framerates and resolutions that were fashionable on pc games half a decade ago...
Then some group suddenly does something wonderful: a new classic Amiga game is born!
You rush to download - man, it's free! - grab it, fire your amiga up, and... hurray, it's Sonic...
Been there, done that... you see you were into one of the best game machines of its time and if you wanted to play Sonic or Mario, you'd had bought it in the shop.
Nevertheless, if you were interested to the slightest you did play it then, and there is nothing more here on offer now, a decade later. What a sorrow disappointment.
Or you were not interested at all: then chances are you couldn't care less now.
Man, it's unbelievable that those guys who spent months if not years of their life creating something wonderful for a mostly abandoned platform decided to spend man years copying a game.
What an utter waste of talent...

Ok, let's see Chu-Chu:
if you want to play it, you go to a shop and buy it. That simple. Or if you really can't buy it download it from somewhere, burn it, flash it whatever.
Nothing novel, no 3d or pseudo 3d effects to be done like on the GBA or DC, so you can't improve on it and the game play had been right in the first place.
Good bye Chu-Chu...

Golden Axe: wow! If you hadn't played it to death on the arcade, you certainly did on your consoles. If you had not, better download mame and enjoy the second best to the Real Thing (tm)

Some snes crap: hurray I don't have to run it on an emulator. Great...
Goodbye snes crap...

These are a bit exagerrated examples, but the point they show is very easy to understand: for people starving for original games, or at least something that is not commonly and already available to not to disappoint them and not waste your and a bunch of other people's time and the users' only hope: just do something original.
As Galahad said: you don't have to start it big, you will fail that anyway. But certainly you can come up with something much better on your own, then copying existing games.
If you can't: you have a problem that should be resolved before doing anything.

I want to play this game on my Real Amiga (tm) and possibly thousands of people would want to do the same. But if is just a port - I couldn't care less whether it is a SNES, MGD, DC, GBA or PC port - I won't be bothered, just be very, very disappointed on all the talent and time wasted on something that could have been a very original and excellent project.

If you absolutely must copy an existing game do a remake of something nice, not widely available for a more modern hardware (in that regard sms, c64, nes, spectrum, bbc, etc based games are the only ones that you could really improve upon).
However I don't know of any law in the universe that enforces Amiga gamers to ever play only shit ports no matter what system gets ported, if such a law exists and must be obeyed by this project we are "Doom"ed indeed
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Old 31 July 2003, 22:12   #29
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you make a lot of scence IFW, but on the other hand it's really hard to come up with an original game idea these days. Especially when those who wants to be involved in this project is scattered all over the world.

Perhaps taking an existing idea or game and enhancing it and make some original changes is the only way to really make something like this happen. Like you and galahad have hinted at: Keep it simple, and perhaps this project will become a finished result.
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Old 31 July 2003, 22:58   #30
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what about a mini games collection?
a couple of puzzle, chu chu rocket, a crappy horizontal shooter and a bad port of sonic 2! why not?

im prepared to do a bit of graphics.. but im sloooooooooow
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Old 31 July 2003, 23:02   #31
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Hmpf. If I am only to make an original concept I would not start this at all. Which *original* games you see today on all platforms? Barely none. Games as innovative as Lemmings do not appear anymore and that's a fact.

So what's the difference if I, for example, like Sonic, and decide to do a fast-paced platformer like it? I already stole the idea, even if it looks completely different (read: Mr. Nutz). I like Puyo Puyo, and I decide to " base" a game on it. Ripoff already. As soon as a game "inspires" me, I'm ripping off its idea.

By your opinion, the only game worth releasing is an original game, the rest is shite. As you may see, the software business doesn't believe this and releases the same shit with different gfx over and over. I know I'm sick of that, but I rather rehash an almost dead genre like the 2D platformer or the graphic adventure, than release a doom wannabe, a redalert clone, or a tombraider "romp". I see shitloads of people who own Amigas buying this lame PC game port shit just to "support" the hardware.

I will repeat myself on this for the last time: The main idea is to gather a group of people and DO things. This was MY idea to start it up, and I still think it's good. If an original game concept comes out of all this, better yet. Though I think this won't be easy because, as I said, most of today's ideas go around the same basic principles set eons ago by classic games on 8 bit home computers. Which of today's popular games are innovative? You will find that most original games are not the popular ones, and they use to come for Japan. and you can count them with the fingers on your hands.
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Old 31 July 2003, 23:19   #32
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Roll eyes (sarcastic)

Akira, both IFW and Galahad are telling it how it is. Basically don't make a clone as people will only play it for a couple of minutes (for the novelty) and probably will never look at it again. Keep it simple is good advice. I'll use the old cliche and say don't run before you can walk. This reminds me of that "EAB Game" thread. It shouldn't be too difficult to think of simple game ideas. How about something like an EAB sliding block game where you have to arrange the blocks to make a "picture" of an EAB members avatar. Something simple like that. If you set your sights to high then you will quickly become bored of the project as you realise it's far too much work. Keep it simple, keep it safe.

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Old 31 July 2003, 23:21   #33
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Id be happy to get involved in the gfx side, I can efficiently use all main packages including Dpaint.

I like the idea of a Sonic type game.

I will be watching closely at this thread to find out more!
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Old 31 July 2003, 23:30   #34
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Creating a new shooter, platform whatever is not copying a specific game.
However starting a project to create Sonic, Chu-Chu Rocket, Golden Axe etc for the Amiga is a bad waste of resources.
I am positive you can come up with a new game in any genre that you'd enjoy playing without the need of breaking copyright laws and copying others' work.

My point is copying a game is pointless, it might be interesting strictly as a geek project (for a few dozen people at most, but not the end-users), you might raise some wows, but your work worth of years is wasted as pretty much everyone just deletes the game after having seen what it is.

So my call is to avoid any confusion: make a new game, you don't have to come up with a new genre, but you should be doing a new game that is not a port or a straight rip-off.
As an easy start surely you can think of a tiny little addictive something as an exercise and to get the group work as a team, in preparation for a bigger project.

Even combining the best elements of games you like is better, than copying them.
Alternatively do a remake for an exercise, but add something to the game, graphics sound and game play wise all if possible to make it worth the effort.

Just doing something and wasting talent instead of spending some time, creating, cherishing and enchancing a new game concept (again: not a new genre, etc) is not very useful.
Take your time, discuss the concept, do a decent design, and once everyone likes it create a prototype without a real engine to see if it really works as a computer game, not just as paperwork.
Once you are satisfied do the real engine, the real graphics, real sound etc.
This is how it works, an amateur project shouldn't be amateur because of being unprofessional, it should be amaetur because it is not profit oriented and is being done for the fun of it. (just like sport was supposed to work a few decades ago)
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Old 31 July 2003, 23:54   #35
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Hmm.. Sonic, why not?
In an old thread I was talking about a very old project never finished (well, to be honest, NEVER STARTED!)

Here you can find some screenshots:

The project started more than 10 years ago just after the release of Zool, along a friend of mine, for the first time at work with amiga assembly. Our aim was to do a mix between Sonic and Zool. Due to the restriction of Amiga 500 hardware, we abandoned the project (we have would to put in a multilevel parallax scrolling, bob effects, 32+32 colours at time). All running at 50 Hz (maybe this was too much for us!) For the hack... well, it speak for itself: Sega/Mega...

If you need some graphis for a clone of Sonic, I have something for you. Unfortunately, it's too much time I didn't use Dpaint and I have lost in my memories all my knowledge about this program and the "graphic touch", so I don't think to be helpful to do new stuff... sorry... (but your project, Akira, it's a great idea!)
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Old 01 August 2003, 01:06   #36
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I think the reason original games are rare these days is just pure laziness. I agree that its harder to think of original ideas because of the variety of genres already out there, but I think it will ALWAYS be possible to come up with something original if you have the imagination. Im sure people were saying all the ideas had already been done before Lemmings came along as well.
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Old 01 August 2003, 02:05   #37
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Thumbs up Akira has the right idea!

I disagree with anybody that thinks remaking an old game is wasting their time and resources.

If that was the case, why is Galahad converting "Super Sprint" from the Atari ST to the Amiga? I for one hope that his project gets finished as I would like to see this game on the Amiga.

As some others have said, you have to start somewhere! There are lots of Tetris games in the public domain - what some people here are saying is that the authors wasted their time writing them. I would argue that the people that wrote were probably learning to program and wanted to start with an established game idea and something quite small. While learning to program you almost always start by copying an established idea until you learn the ins and outs of the language. And as a bonus of learning, the Amiga will get a new old classic!

By remaking an old classic game you have the headstart of not having to create all the graphics and levels and lets you concentrate on getting the game right and learning to code. Once you have that under control you can move onto your own unique game.

If the Sonic engine turned out really well written you could easily add new features to it and modify the graphics/design to make a new game yourself, or add more levels.

I love games like Rodland and I would love to see a similar game with different levels and enemies. In fact the arcade version itself has an additional 32 levels if you press some key combination before pressing the Start button. I wouldn't see it as a waste of resources if somebody decided to redo Rodland with new levels.

Originally posted by IFW
My point is copying a game is pointless, it might be interesting strictly as a geek project (for a few dozen people at most, but not the end-users), you might raise some wows, but your work worth of years is wasted as pretty much everyone just deletes the game after having seen what it is.
I would argue this point aswell - if I loaded up a game that I do not like (I hate RPG type games so let's pick on Abandoned Places 2 - I've never played it incidentally) I would most likely play it for a few seconds and think "yawnsville" and delete it so what is the difference? If it's a good game, you will play it whether it's old or new.

I will end with the words of a famous Chinese furniture removal van driver: "An old game you have never played is still new to you".

Last edited by Codetapper; 01 August 2003 at 02:17.
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Old 01 August 2003, 02:41   #38
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Originally posted by Dastardly
I think the reason original games are rare these days is just pure laziness.
Nope, the reason is because very very few publishers will take the risk on an original product. If you do a sequel or a licence, then no problem. A licence or a sequel has something identifiable for the punter, so it is foolishly believed that it will sell enough units no matter how good it is. It's a huge problem at the moment. Independent developers are dieing off because publishers won't risk their products. Creative Assembly and Hotgen have just died, Core Design will probably die now because they have been dropped by Eidos for the Tomb Raider games, Crawfish died, Kaboom studios struggled, Argonauts have recently lost publishers for three of their games. It's going mental. If something is not done soon then there will be no real game industry in the UK.
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Old 01 August 2003, 07:26   #39
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I deny to turn this project into a "lame bat hitting an EAB ball or an EAB head or whatever". I am ambitious about the projects I do and I won't waste my time doing shite. Starting simple doiesn't mean starting shitty. If I start a shitty project I get bored of it. The challenge of a big difficult project is what gets me going, unlike most people who preffer sticking to simple things.

The idea of "start simple, think big!", which everyone seems to agree on (me included), is one of the reasons why porting a game would be a good starter. If we pick a simple enough game (like Magical Drop), it'll be easy to catch up on the skills of each individual and all of us as a group. We forget about getting the GFX right, getting the sound right, and the feel right. It's all defined already, we just have to make a product as faithful to the original as possible, and mission accomplished: we have finished a game project, we have individually developed our skills and we have worked as a team.

If everybody is so against a port, we'll make the game for ourselves only and enjoy it in the privacy of our Amigas, never spreading it anywhere since, it seems, it's a " waste of time" for the community who loves to play Duke Nukem 3D at 3 FPS on an 040. and they have to PAy for it. Fer foks sake.

The woolf: that's good stuff mate! Too bad you can't help us
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Old 01 August 2003, 08:14   #40

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I personally would love to see Puyo Puyo ported on Amiga. And if extra stuff could be added, it would be even better.

I could help.. by giving ideas and designing levels
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