Winuae strange speed behaviour in vsync on mode

[rsn8887]

First of all I am amazed by version 1.4.6. It seems to me everything just works better in this version than ever before, and the hi res sprites and other new features kick a** thanks again Toni.

I think I just noticed something about WinUAE (version 1.4.6 but probably same for older versions). Bottom line: My theory is that if and only if Vsync is enabled, then the "fastest possible" setting does not work as it should.

I will compare Vsync on vs. Vsync off...

A1200 config 100 Hz (Pal) Fullscreen+Vsync
- Fastest possible does not use 100% Host CPU usage, rather hovers around 50% for me. I am referring to Winuae's on-screen cpu usage LED.
- "match A500 speed" behaves exactly the same. With exactly I mean I benchmarked using sysinfo dhrystones. On my system, I get 0.81*A1200EC020 performance for both "fastest possible" as well as "match A500 speed" settings.

Compare this to Vsync off:

A1200 config 100 Hz Pal Fullscreen without Vsync (Frames set to 50)
- Fastest possible uses 100% CPU as expected.
- Fastest possible is faster than "match A500 speed". "match A500 speed" gives me 0.81*A1200EC020 speed just as before, but that's ok I guess.

So it seems to me that when Vsync is enabled, "fastest possible" setting doesn't behave as it should?

What do you think?

[Toni Wilen]

I have mostly used VSync in A500-modes and I don't remember any major issues in other modes.

Did you try without sound? Any change? I am too lazy to test just now..

Or perhaps it is some stupid bug. Windows VSync is stupid and WinUAE vsync isn't too good either but it works in A500-mode which is good enough for me..

Remind me later

[rsn8887]

Originally Posted by Toni Wilen

I have mostly used VSync in A500-modes and I don't remember any major issues in other modes.

Did you try without sound? Any change? I am too lazy to test just now..

Or perhaps it is some stupid bug. Windows VSync is stupid and WinUAE vsync isn't too good either but it works in A500-mode which is good enough for me..

Remind me later

Am on different computer here at work, seems to behave a bit different.

I am testing in A500 quickstart config on this one now. I am just using the kickstart boot up screen and check the on-screen leds.

The two modes "fastest possible" and "match A500 speed" seem to behave the same if and only if vsync is ON.

Sound doesn't make a difference.

Monitor here only does 60 Hz, so I used the following configs

Quickstart Default A500 config, display set to 800*600 Fullscreen 60 Hz (NTSC), chipset NTSC checked.

VSYNC OFF (frames=60):
Everything as it should be
-"fastest possible" uses 100% host cpu as led indicates
-"match A500 speed" uses only 12% host cpu, which makes sense (3GHz machine)

VSYNC ON:
Something strange again
-"fastest possible" uses 100% host cpu as led indicates
-but "match A500 speed" now ALSO uses 100% host cpu

with VSYNC ON, the two settings "fastest possible" and "match A500 speed" behave the same way.

is it just some GUI thing that the "fastest possible" vs. "match A500 speed" checkboxes are sometimes not read out correctly?

[Tony Landais]

I have the same problem here both in 60Hz and 50Hz
When I activate the fullscreen Vsync WinUAE runs like a plain A500 no matter what I activate (fastest possible, JIT, more compatible)

I ran AIBB by curiosity and without Vsync and CPU (none JIT) it finds a 68000 running at 161 Mhz but with Vsync it finds one at 7.09 Mhz.

Same behavior with WinUAE 1.4.6 or the latest beta 1.5.b22
I have a Mac book pro ATI mobility Radeon X1600 Latest Catalyst drivers and XP SP3

[Tony Landais]

Right it was actually quiet confusing but I think I got the right description of the problem now.

Based on sysspeed and observed from time booting and general performances.

Native mode (fullscreen or window) no Vsync
RTG Window Vsync (fullscreen or window): 33 MIPS
RTG Window no Vsync (fullscreen or window) : 38 MIPS

but as soon as I activate Vsync in Native mode (fullscreen)
RTG Window Vsync (fullscreen or window): 1.27 MIPS
RTG Window no Vsync (fullscreen or window): 1.27 MIPS

So as soon as we select Native mode fullscreen Vsync the emulation switch to A500 speed ignoring all other options.

I just try to have a fast workbench able to laungh Vsync Whdload games.
Hope it helps

PS: JIT works fine in Vsync. but not Non JIT emulation.

[Toni Wilen]

I confirm slow vsync+without jit but I don't have any solutions. Won't be fixed in 1.5. (too late)

btw, do not use benchmark programs, especially those that try to show CPU speed in MHz, they will show totally bogus values, stopwatch + some CPU heavy operation that takes long time (30s+) is much more reliable test.

[andreas]

Erm Toni, is Vsync in windowed mode available now?
I would've guessed it is still on the todo list...

[rsn8887]

Tony Landais:
Thanks for seconding.

Toni Wilen:
Tenfold thanks for confirming

Andreas:
I tested this in simple fullscreen mode, no RTG, no JIT, nothing fancy apart from Vsync ON (100Hz screen mode).

[amiga]

@rsn8887:

Another test you can do is to connect your PC to a PAL (or NTSC) TV, via the TV-out of your gfx card, with Vsync on, "Refresh" set to "every frame",
and choose "Default" instead of 100Hz in the "Full Screen" drop-down list in Display panel.

[rsn8887]

@amiga:
Would love to, but no TV out on my box
I believe it will show the same behaviour though....

[rsn8887]

Tested again with 1.5.1beta1, just to double check, the "slow Vsync" behaviour is still there as expected.

But I also just found that, with sound disabled, "100Hz (Pal), Fullscreen+Vsync" modes give >50fps emulated fps (sometimes up to 100, twice the speed of a PAL Amiga) instead of the normal "50fps with each frame displayed twice" (50Hz*2). Same with sound enabled but automatic switching on, fps increases whenever WinUAE decides to switch off sound.

Even with sound enabled and automatic switching off, I get 51 emulated fps instead of the usual 50 in the "100Hz (Pal), Fullscreen+Vsync" modes. This is according to the on-screen fps LED.

The "100Hz (PAL)" display mode is noticably more stuttery in the vsync mode than in the non-vsync 50 fps mode.

Tested with A500 quickstart config, mahoney and kaktus "sounds of gnome" musicdisc monitoring the main scroll text smoothness.

[Toni Wilen]

Originally Posted by rsn8887

Even with sound enabled and automatic switching off, I get 51 emulated fps instead of the usual 50 in the "100Hz (Pal), Fullscreen+Vsync" modes. This is according to the on-screen fps LED.

Are you really sure you have vsync enabled in display driver settings?

[rsn8887]

Originally Posted by Toni Wilen

Are you really sure you have vsync enabled in display driver settings?

I hope I don't misunderstand: You mean on the Windows side, in Windows Control Panel/Advanced Graphics or similar?

There's no "force VSync" or similar setting for my gfx-card driver. I am just using the standard Windows/DirectX driver for ATI Rage PRO. I am not using any fancy Direct3D or OpenGL rendering in WinUAE.

VSync works fine and is switchable in other emulators that use DirectDraw. Therefore I doubt my VSync would be globally disabled through some registry setting of my gfx card driver? Especially since it worked differently in pre 1.5.0 versions. But I will double check once I get home

[Toni Wilen]

Originally Posted by rsn8887

I hope I don't misunderstand: You mean on the Windows side, in Windows Control Panel/Advanced Graphics or similar?

Yes. And also use monitor's OSD to check you have correct frame rate. WinUAE expects it and gets really weird if it is something else..

Especially since it worked differently in pre 1.5.0 versions. But I will double check once I get home

Where did you say there was difference between 1.4.6 and 1.5.0...?

[rsn8887]

Originally Posted by Toni Wilen

Yes. And also use monitor's OSD to check you have correct frame rate. WinUAE expects it and gets really weird if it is something else..

Concerning windows driver: I checked my display driver, there's no specific VSync option in my Windows/ATI Graphics Control Panels.

Concerning OSD: I always double check with OSD for actual refresh rate, it is a habit. Indeed, OSD verifies 100.00 Hz.

Originally Posted by Toni Wilen

Where did you say there was difference between 1.4.6 and 1.5.0...?

I didn't, sorry. I forgot to double check this yesterday. Yes, this behaviour was introduced with 1.5.0.

1.4.6 is fine, concerning both the
(a) "non-50fps in 100 Hz VSync (~51 fps instead of 50)"
and the
(b) "100 fps instead of 50 fps in 100 Hz VSync if sound switched off"
problems.
(c) "Slow VSync (~A500 speed regardless of CPU setting)"
as described earlier in this thread _is_ present in 1.4.6.

So I will consider a, b, and c as three different things now, even though they are probably related

How to quickly reproduce b: "100 fps instead of 50 fps when sound disabled":

-Set the default A500 quickstart configuration
-Go to display, set "800*600" "100 Hz (PAL)", and "Fullscreen + Vsync"
-Enable "On Screen LEDs" in misc panel
-Boot with no floppy inserted into Kick1.3 "insert disc" prompt
-> now watch on screen LEDS -> as soon as sound is switched off, fps jumps from ~50 to 100. In fact both cpu usage LED and fps LED both jump to 100 here... ?!

[rsn8887]

Just checking again with 1.5.1 public beta 4. I thought it might have been one of those DirectDraw memory leaks that Toni fixed recently (Thanks again Toni for working on this masterpiece of software ).

But Vsync issues a), b) and c) remain so far.

I found out:
The two issues a) and b) that got introduced in 1.5.0 do _not_ happen if I enable filter and set filter to Direct3D (with default filter options). Issue c) remains regardless of filter.

With the Direct3D filter on however, I saw some sporadic increase of frame rate from the desired 50 to around 80 during display of Amiga side interlace screens. Should the fps led increase when displaying interlace?

btw: With null filter option, I get exactly 33 fps and 150% CPU usage in Vsync on mode...

EDIT: In Direct3D filter mode other issues appear: it is ~one third the speed of directdraw in terms of host CPU usage. And if set it to 1x, 1x scaling and 16bit point to get pixel perfect rendering, I get screen-tearing even in VSync. Maybe this is from Direct3D still scaling the image and rounding errors in pixel positions?

EDIT2:This might be a completely stupid thought and disregards that Vsync was working apart from issue c) in WinUAE 1.4.6. But could the solution to Vsync problems in general be the implementation of triple buffering, as e.g. used in Zsnes/NeorageX/WinKawaks etc? Emus with triple buffer seem to have perfect VSync at pretty high speeds.

[Dr.Venom]

Originally Posted by Toni Wilen

I confirm slow vsync+without jit but I don't have any solutions. Won't be fixed in 1.5. (too late)

Hi Toni,

Just a quick message to tell you that the slowdown isn't only happening when using native vsync+without jit (as described by Tony Landais c.s. in this thread), but also on native vsync WITH jit. The latter is less apparent, but by doing the following you'll notice the slowdown.

1. Start workbench in (RTG fullscreen) Picasso mode with JIT enabled and native fullscreen + vsync enabled. (RTG fullscreen with or without vsync doesn't influence the results).

2. Now open up a large window with drawers/icons in it. Start delitracker or eagleplayer and play a module. Now grab hold of the window and move it around the screen fast (making e.g. circles with the mouse while keeping hold of the large window) and you'll hear the amiga music from the module slowing down significantly. This slowdown with the same procedure doesn't happen when native vsync is NOT enabled.

The above is even more apparent with "solid window moving" enabled in the util MCP (which btw I've also totally disabled to make sure MCP is not the culprit).

Hope this helps. It would be great if you could resolve these issues with native fullscreen+vsync slowing down the emulation (in any other mode than A500 mode).

My PC setup is Windows Vista on an Athlon64X2 6000+ and ATI Radeon 1900XTX. My WinUAE setup has Picasso enabled, AGA, 68030, JIT. See attached config file.

[rsn8887]

Checked Vsync behaviour on my box with 1.5.3 beta 0.1, my issues a), b) and c) remain as described earlier in this post.

This might be subjective and can probably be ignored but I really think the non-vsync fullscreen behaviour has actually _vastly improved_ at some point recently in WinUAE! I am seeing way less stuttering of scrollers etc when I use non-vsync modes now to what I remember from older versions of WinUAE. I don't know when the change happened, and, yes, there is the occasional stutter every 1-2 seconds. But I used to have some really really bad stutter on earlier versions of WinUAE whenever I didn't use Vsync. I think that is pretty awesome! I am gonna use non-vsync modes for now for a while and see how it goes...