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Old 08 June 2017, 21:28   #141
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Originally Posted by Akira View Post
No, you can't! No cheer and good vibes in this thread!
Only bile, bickering and pointless resentment over a dead platform people keep wanting to zombify
Could be worse. Could be Atari.
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Old 08 June 2017, 21:53   #142
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Originally Posted by OlafSch View Post
my critisizm regarding how you tried to "convince" gunnar stays. You have nothing to offer to him except some vague promises what you "might" do. Very propable basic decisions were done long time ago, they are now finishing their vision step by step. It might be that your vision would have been different but he (and a small group of people) are doing the work, not you, not me, not kollar. There is even a open source core like TG68 out there, so everybody with enough skills can do something. I could not and as far as I understand it neither you nor kollar. But still you all are requesting this or that in every thread, kollar even accusing me to do a shitstorm what is funny, I must think of "if you sit in glass house you should not throw with stones" there. I think the basic problem with you and gunnar and some time ago thor and gunnar are different goals of the project and people are not really caring what the other side thinks.
I didn't have any promises. I was still trying to figure out what everyone needed and wanted and trying to put it together. It didn't matter as it became all about what one person wanted when he chose to take a left turn, head in another direction and ignore everyone else.

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Originally Posted by OlafSch View Post
Thor talked against the project how it is done because he thought it should best integrate in existing amiga hardware universe but that is not the goal, it is defining a new compatible but different platform replacing many existing extensions. Thor did not understand this so there were long partly emotional debates. You I think have the idea of a general purpose 68k core but Gunnar wants a new amiga 68k platform mainly so he does not care which requirements might be f.e. in embedded market. Am I right?
Gunnar ignored ThoR when he should have been working with him to design a new MMU with a compatibility layer for the 68040/68060 MMU which didn't scale well (as ThoR proposed). Of course you need a virtual address capable MMU but Gunnar couldn't afford the performance hit in his FPGA only CPU. So Gunnar's new standard he wants to create is neither 68k FPU or 68k MMU compatible and there is no allowance in his ISA for compatibility because it is not scaleable or designed for the future. He attempted to make his ISA high performance but the lack of scalability means his SIMD is stuck with 64 bit integer only registers when high performance SIMDs have at least 128 bit integer+FPU capabilities. I wouldn't invest money in creating an ASIC with these limitations. I would like to know what market he targets as it appears he is ignoring a larger market than he appeals to with an old outdated MMX SIMD unit and no 68k compatible FPU or MMU.

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Originally Posted by kolla View Post
My issues are:
* pointless compatibility problems should be avoided, not embraced
* compatibility with existing operating systems and software should have much higher priority than utopian visions about making Amiga... eh, no... m68k great again!!11 (that one goes to Matthey too btw)
* the War on FPU and anyone who may have need for FPU, should stop. Notice how _every_ posting regarding software not working is left uncommented, or even removed, from apollo-core.com?
* The apparently existing fully working and functional 68882 softcore _should_ be made available, for two reasons - firstly, there are Vampire owners who have use for it. Secondly, it would be waste to not make it available.
The ISA I had documented were ideas the "team" came up with before Gunnar took a left turn by himself. Integer compatibility would have been practically perfect while FPU compatibility would have been high (practically perfect for the Amiga). The FPU would have been based on the 68060 FPU as it is not practical to bring back all the 6888x instructions. I wanted to add the FPU before the SIMD. As you can see, I do strongly support keeping a 68k compatible FPU. I am open minded enough to look at less compatible opportunities but they need to be compelling. Some compatibility probably necessarily needs to be broken where poor decisions were made or there is a lack of scalability. For example, a TLSFMem memory handler may not be 100% compatible but fast bit field instructions could make dynamic memory allocations/deallocations several times faster. There may be a few programs which would need recompiles or patching if deemed valuable enough.

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Originally Posted by kolla View Post
* marketing should be a lot clearer about what one get - especially now with retailers shipping it.
* name calling and behaviour:
- Just because people don't agree with your CPU design choices does not justify calling them "idiots".
- Just because people find the AMMX a wasted effort does not justify calling them "idiots".
- Just because people question how the Apollo Core is superior to ARM does not make them "idiots".
- When your only argument against ARM is "it sucks!!", it does not make the Apollo Core superior.
- Letting over-enthusiastic groupies state just about _anything_, no matter how over the top bat shit crazy, rant about how insanely awesome the Apollo Core is and how awesome the future will be, while at the same time engage in name calling and mud slinging contests when skilled people (not me) who do disagree with decisions dare to speak up.
- I could go on here, but what would be the point...
I agree on both points. The marketing is deceptive and the personal attackers with any connection to the Apollo Core are doing a disservice to the product.

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Originally Posted by kolla View Post
As I see it, Gunnar does not really even care about Amiga, his love is for 68k and he wants to push the 68k architecture to wherever his whim brings it. What OS it ends running, or what community he ends up with doesn't really matter, what matters for him is that he can have a following who takes part in his quest for what he sees as the ultimate 68k design. Software exists merely to showcase the superiority of his design, any software that does't is pointless. He knows the Amiga community, he knows its mix of "desperate" and "gullible", and he knows he can play this.
I disagree. I believe Gunnar cares about the Amiga community and believes he is doing good by leading us away from what he considers outdated and slow hardware. This isn't the first time he lost touch with reality and tried to sacrifice everything, especially compatibility, for maximum performance. I hope the community and his business partners can bring him back from his obsession once again. I believe he would be a valuable employee if he just wasn't in charge.

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Originally Posted by Akira View Post
No, you can't! No cheer and good vibes in this thread!
Only bile, bickering and pointless resentment over a dead platform people keep wanting to zombify
It isn't that bad is it? Much of the discussion is pointless if there is no attempt to bring the 68k Amiga back but if there is I can't emphasize enough how much bad standards will make it harder.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Open Sources: Voices from the Open Source Revolution
This is somewhat analogous to the concept of creating and maintaining standards with open-source software. It is very expensive to create a standard and get it right. But it is far more expensive to work without standards or to try to maintain a standard if the standard is bogus. There is great value in having good people working on software whose precedents will set the standards of tomorrow. We believed at the beginning that people would understand this value proposition, and would value the opportunity to pay us to create high-quality, open-source programs that would become the de facto standard of the software world.
http://www.oreilly.com/openbook/open...k/tiemans.html

This is from Michael Tiemann who was a major contributor in making Linux and GCC portable and popular. His book also talks about bad interfaces and avoiding them later. There is an interesting section called "Amiga and the Motorola Port". Their business model was unique at the time and many people told them it wouldn't work. Could the Amiga borrow some ideas from this business model? Does anyone read anymore (the complete book is at the link above)?

Last edited by matthey; 08 June 2017 at 21:59.
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Old 08 June 2017, 22:19   #143
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Originally Posted by matthey View Post
It isn't that bad is it? Much of the discussion is pointless if there is no attempt to bring the 68k Amiga back but if there is I can't emphasize enough how much bad standards will make it harder.
At this point I don't want it to be "brought back", because of two things
1) It never left. I still have mine, I still use it, and stuff for it still comes out. And that's just not me, it's thousands of users. So why is there a need to "bring back" what is already there?
2) All attempts to "bring it to the future" end up like this. Yes, it is that bad in my opinion.

That is why I said, perhaps, "humpty dumpty" is best left as it is.
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Old 16 June 2017, 19:55   #144
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A second batch has been confirmed to be imminently shipping to us by the Apollo Team.

So we have re-opened pre-ordering now that we have be confirmed availability from the Apollo Team.

Here is the product link on Amiga Kit Amiga Store:

http://amigakit.amiga.store/catalog/...oducts_id=1304
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Old 16 June 2017, 21:14   #145
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A1200 version wanted Is great its being sold at Amigakit aswell, get the volumes of production up !!
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Old 16 June 2017, 21:48   #146
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I think it'd been nice to have The Apollo team offer people who paid and are waiting a chance to pay the difference to get their cards shipped from AmiKit. We wouldn't have to wait as long and customs to the US wouldn't be as stringent. Nothing to do with you guys of course. *sigh*
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Old 16 June 2017, 22:20   #147
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For USA trackable/insured Vampire accelerators orders we use FedEx Priority so it takes 1 to 2 business day anywhere in the USA.
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Old 16 June 2017, 22:33   #148
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For USA trackable/insured Vampire accelerators orders we use FedEx Priority so it takes 1 to 2 business day anywhere in the USA.

Already paid, just waiting. I'm of the opinion that an "upgrade" option would have been nice to transfer my sale from Apollo to AmiKit. I'm looking at maybe an August ship date and by the time customs gets through with it maybe a September delivery after paying at end of March. So seeing Amikit stock and sell out so fast (for a little bit more $$) with better shipping is something I might have considered paying the difference for if given the option.
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Old 16 June 2017, 23:42   #149
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Cant you just preorder from Amigakit and cancel the other order if you get in, if you are still way back in the Apollo Team queue?
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Old 17 June 2017, 00:17   #150
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Cant you just preorder from Amigakit and cancel the other order if you get in, if you are still way back in the Apollo Team queue?

I'd rather not complicate things by asking for a refund then repurchase it at this point. If I could send them a little bit more money to have my order changed over that'd be ideal and easier on all I think.
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Old 18 June 2017, 05:33   #151
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Here is a fun article showing FPU vs No-FPU on the Vampire.
https://blog.alb42.de/?s=fpu

The 68060 FPU is anywhere from 20x-40x+ faster than the Vampire with SoftFPU calculations.
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Old 18 June 2017, 15:20   #152
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Originally Posted by grelbfarlk View Post
Here is a fun article showing FPU vs No-FPU on the Vampire.
https://blog.alb42.de/?s=fpu

The 68060 FPU is anywhere from 20x-40x+ faster than the Vampire with SoftFPU calculations.
As someone who has ordered a V500 only to do 3D, no FPU in the Vampire is a real bummer. It will still be a kick-ass upgrade on my 020 though, and loads cheaper than a 20y.o. 060 card.

Still, them Blizzard 2060's though...
http://www.amigapodcast.com/2016/09/...ore-speed.html

To comment on-topic: I'm in the same boat as Sinphaltimus - paid but still waiting. It's a little frustrating now seeing it available elsewhere sooner, but no biggie, I'll still be chuffed to receive my card, still think it's an ace project (but would be WAY better with an FPU - hint, hint ).
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Old 18 June 2017, 15:30   #153
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All is going according to the list, based on date of payment. Everyone who paid before re sellers will get the cards before them. Our list have highest priority then the others.
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Old 19 June 2017, 03:24   #154
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All is going according to the list, based on date of payment. Everyone who paid before re sellers will get the cards before them. Our list have highest priority then the others.
Thanks Majsta,

I know how hard you must be working to get the cards out and your efforts are appreciated.
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Old 21 June 2017, 16:29   #155
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Will AMIGAKIT sell A600 vampire model? If so i will buy one :-)
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Old 21 June 2017, 19:03   #156
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As someone who has ordered a V500 only to do 3D, no FPU in the Vampire is a real bummer.
Seems a bit silly to buy an accelerator without FPU to do stuff which greatly benefits from an FPU.. Yes, they may release a version with working FPU at some point, but they never guaranteed that it would get FPU, so one should not be disappointed if it never becomes available. Buy it for what it is now and everything it might get in the future is a bonus.
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Old 21 June 2017, 19:33   #157
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Why does (lack of) FPU complaints has to pollute every single Vampire related discussion?
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Old 21 June 2017, 20:16   #158
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Nor does it perform biblical miracles, as we discovered in the other calm and considered thread on the topic. Really, if it can't transmogrify potable liquids then what chance does it have of raising the dead?
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Old 21 June 2017, 20:19   #159
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Why does (lack of) FPU complaints has to pollute every single Vampire related discussion?
Because there is nothing else to complain about ?
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Old 21 June 2017, 20:47   #160
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Nor does it perform biblical miracles, as we discovered in the other calm and considered thread on the topic. Really, if it can't transmogrify potable liquids then what chance does it have of raising the dead?
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