13 June 2017, 23:32 | #61 | ||
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Noooo! Please don't jump to conclusions! I am not talking about anything massively parallel! Not at all! I was talking about one/single/solo transputer core! The T800 series was quite a good single core processor back in 1987, delivering over 15 mips at 20Mhz. 32bit with a 64bit fpu. This will be one foundations stone of our new CPU-concept. Some other influence may come from Wangs mainframe CPUs...and some radical new ons from the future... Quote:
He is a big Amiga-fan, as we all are, but I think he is more biased to the hardware, 68k asm, and the custom chips .. While I and some others (probably most of the Aros and modern Amiga crowd) are more biased towards the AmigaOS and the feeling. So people like me do not just want to play old games on an fpga, but actually *use* the system and work/play with programs, do need a fast FPU... Last edited by Gorf; 14 June 2017 at 01:12. |
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14 June 2017, 00:44 | #62 | |
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14 June 2017, 03:18 | #63 | ||
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adapteva The big advantage is the parallelism and Transputer like communication which is cluster computing like big supercomputers but with fewer resources. Cache coherency problems are solved by using a partitioned global address space but this also limits general purpose use and requires special programming. It takes a lot of parallelism to outperform a general purpose Intel i7 in floating point performance. Quote:
Gorf altered the space time continuum earlier and this may have an affect. C= may have a stronger position and be more easily able to influence Motorola as a top customer. If not, obtaining and developing the 68060 is less radical than the PA-RISC Hombre project which nearly happened. C= would have needed some leadership with foresight to steer them away from big RISCy decisions including PPC. Many C= developers fell for the RISC hype and who can argue with AIM (Apple, IBM, Motorola) support, even though that fell apart. There was more conservative development support in C= which valued compatibility and pushed for a 68k based Amiga SoC. Was PPC migration or the 68k SoC development path the better choice? Hindsight is not always 20/20 after we alter the time line. I can tell you which looks better today though . |
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14 June 2017, 04:30 | #64 | ||||
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We are talking about a "normal" setup: single or dual core. nothing fancy Quote:
As I said, the T800 had pretty good single core performance the T9000 was in development but never came to live:
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No, it is not that similar at all: the weak cores can only use their tiny 16kb ram and you can not attach a ram-controller (because they are all on the same die) useless! Please get that image out of your head: that is not what I am taking about! The link or interconnect technology we already reused for networking and our USB clone. There it is put to best use - not in the CPU. Last edited by Gorf; 14 June 2017 at 04:42. |
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15 June 2017, 02:56 | #65 | ||
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mill_architecture VLIW has been a failure so far for general purpose computing and I doubt this will be a success because of the complexity. CISC can still be pretty good. + powerful instructions (few instructions needed) + efficient cache/memory accesses + good code density (for fetch and cache efficiency) + good performance with few registers + easy to use and debug at a low level - some complexity in the decoder (for decompression) - complex to create |
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15 June 2017, 03:11 | #66 |
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Damn - now you spoiled the surprice!
Yes, the radical ideas I brought back from the future is indeed the Mill. Ivan Godard from Mill about the Amiga: "Yep. The Amiga got a lot of things right; amazingly so considering the vintage. AmigaOS was actually one of the (mental) use-cases during Mill development. Last edited by Gorf; 15 June 2017 at 03:44. |
15 June 2017, 03:47 | #67 |
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You might want to take back something that works. Another VLIW attempt would have been a good way to put C= out of business if you were wanting to take it over though. Transmeta had almost $1 billion in investment and couldn't come up with a descent general purpose VLIW CPU. Intel's Itanium was a more EPIC VLIW fail with some of the best chip designers in the world working on it. The Mill machine is an even more radical design with immense compiler complexity (likely a debugging nightmare). They can probably find plenty of investor suckers as history repeats itself though. Unfortunately, there aren't very many investors who want to invest in making proven designs better.
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15 June 2017, 04:25 | #68 | |||
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It even reached reasonable clock speed and performance. The mistake was to attack Intel on x86. Back at the time I even was in email contact with the guys and tried to convince them to adapt their "code morphing software" to the 68K ISA. It was considered but dismissed :-( Quote:
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The Mill and a modern 136K. (would a 64bit 68K not be a 136K?) Last edited by Gorf; 15 June 2017 at 07:58. |
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15 June 2017, 06:39 | #69 |
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@ matthey
If one would follow your arguments with ice-cold logic, going x86 (and later x64) would be the most reasonable thing to do: Even if we take over 68K development and manage to develop chips, that are as fast as late Pentium or Core chips... it would be very expensive to do so. And even if we could bring back Apple to use 68k again, we would end up producing and selling less than Intel: equal costs, but smaller revenue. And we would always be one step behind Intel in terms of the manufacturing process. Intel was and is always the first to ship a smaller structure size... Therefore we would almost certainly be more power-hungry or slower. We would face the same problems AMD did and does - in some years we might have a win, but most of the time we lack behind. So it would make more sense to invest our precious money in the development of good gfx-chips, good software and nice computers and leave the CPU to Intel and AMD. Let them fight the fight and enjoy the result: cheap and fast CPUs The only reason that would justify taking an other route, is a design that is fundamentally better in all areas: speed, efficiency, price and support for AmigaOS as well as Linux/BSD. And it needs to be so good, that others switch over from x86 to our platform. 68K CISC is just not different enough to provide any real benefit over x86. Having a nicer ISA and nicer asm is not doing the trick. |
15 June 2017, 18:19 | #70 |
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in the year 1995
in the year 1995
Happy 10th anniversary Amiga! Of course there is a big party! Where? In our brand-new headquarter! Where? In Los Gatos, California! We are finally back where everything began. Since the development of the CDTV we had a group stationed in this area and over the years it became more and more our creative center. Now we are officially back. (And no more shady Bahamas of course!) Here is a short list of important events and our new products: Microsoft, Win85, OLE: This is nor only a big year for use but also for MS: they are shipping Windows 95. Finally more than 8 characters in a filename! No joke, it really took them so long. And finally 32bit. Well at least mostly ... of course there is still DOS deep inside and win16 and old driver models and ... We spent some money to analyze the market and customer expectations, but still we have not the slightest clue why MS is able to sell Windows. But at least we got the patents. Since we took over we are filing patents for every stupid idea - no matter how trivial. The patent system in the US is terribly broken, but we can not change that, so we play along. So we have now a silly patent to press a "start button", if you want to shut down you computer... A more substantial patent covers the OLE framework MS is using in Office. We got this by merging with Wang. In real-reality MS would settle in 1995 for about $90 million. We do not want the money... Wang needed it back than, but we don't. MS wants to ship its new line of Office for its new Win95, and in worst case we could find a judge, who forbids these new products in USA. That is a risk, MS is not really willing to take. So we settle under following conditions - they can use OLE as long as:
AmigaPS, Sony PreyStation, SEGA Saturn: This year all the other 5th Generation Consoles are hitting the market. Sony has the most aggressive strategy - they are offering their PreyStation for incredible $299. We just reached that price with our outdated model from 1992. With mpeg- and/or 3D module we are more expensive and still not better.. We integrate, size down and optimize ... we put the mpeg-chip as well as the Quake-chip on the same board - and we use an old trick: Bundles! With 3 or 5 games the AmigaPS+video-3D is available for $400 - same a s the Sega Saturn. Sega is out of the race quite soon. The battle is between Sony and C.A.T We are going to lose our no. 1 position this year, but we still got over 25 million AmigaPS out there and so games are still coming. We do not have such a elaborate copy-protection as Sony PreyStation has... so some developers prefer the new platform. CD-burners are now available for around $1000 and they can not yet burn our special CD-ROM format ... but this is only a question of time. In the end the ability to copy games, will be a factor that prolonged the lifecycle of the AmigaPS until the year 2000. BeOS and BeBox: Both come out this year. That don't impressing me much... We added a full lock-free SMP solution to out AmigaOS, thanks to Alexa Massalin. In addition to our VM/Container based MP solution. (to be honest: I don't think the BeBox would ship in our timeline, since this product makes no sense anymore...) Motorola and the CPU Long negotiations, hard bargaining ... in the end a compromise: Motorola helped us integrate the AAA+ chipset for the AmigaPS into one chip. A second chip contains the 68030 and the licensed DSP, a third chip the Mpeg-decoder and 3D. They also brought the 68060 including the DSP to their newest 0.42mu line. 3.3V and 66Mhz. In large numbers. But for that we had to promise to join the PPC-Club. New Products:
*) we are going to establish our 3D standard before someone else does - it also makes ports easier. Last edited by Gorf; 15 June 2017 at 21:41. |
15 June 2017, 23:52 | #71 | |||||||||||
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That was one of their biggest mistakes. They might have had something if they made the code morphing software easier to adapt to many architectures. It is a nice feature to be able to execute code from different architectures on the same CPU even if a less efficient virtual machine is needed for translation. Quote:
IBM and Motorola both worked on CPUs which supported multiple or customizable ISAs. IBM made the PPC 615 prototypes which supported PPC and x86. Some of the Engineers supposedly joined the Transmeta team. Jim Drew (Fusion Macintosh emulator author) says Motorola was working on a CPU which could execute 68k code but wasn't a 68k CPU. I'm not sure what CPU this would have been but the major chip manufacturers were experimenting with technologies. Quote:
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As far as a 64 bit 68k, it is not difficult but is it worthwhile? The Apollo Core is 64 bit (integer/SIMD units) and the integer registers are 64 bit wide even though the address lines are not currently connected. I have looked at benchmarks and test data and my conclusion is that on average a general purpose CPU is slower with 64 bit ALU processing. There are a few work loads which benefit greatly but most are streaming data which can be done more efficiently in the SIMD unit. Shift, multiplication and division of 64 bit data slows down the whole pipeline, code density deteriorates requiring larger ICache and data alignment needs increase requiring more DCache. The only overall reason to have 64 bit integer pipes in a general purpose CPU is to add more physical address space. Here you are using just a few more bits but now all your pointers take 64 bits clogging the DCache as half as many fit in the DCache. There are some applications which need 64 bit addressing but most general purpose applications would be fine with 4GB of address space per task. Caches become slower as they become larger (electricity takes time to propagate across more transistors) and large L1 caches for multiple cores multiplies the transistor cost. We can no longer shrink the dies indefinitely as Moore's law expires so 64 bit will remain slower at some point. What percentage of target customers need more than 32 bits of physical addressing per task, especially since we have excellent code density? Quote:
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16 June 2017, 00:19 | #72 | ||||||
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But how are we going to survive on the desktop-market for 20 years, to get to now? Certainly not with CPUs for embedded. Quote:
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we need 64bit just for two things: tagged pointers and a security feature. Quote:
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And the integration of cpu+dsp ist just a drop-in replacement. Also the MPEG-chip needs to stay separated for now in the AmigaPS: Is is a console, that means every game expects the same setup - in this case, the MPEG decoder has to work independently of the CPU... We will not bring a 2. generation of the AmigaPS. We are done with consoles. Last edited by Gorf; 16 June 2017 at 05:59. |
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16 June 2017, 01:20 | #73 | |||||
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Macintosh black and white no custom chips beeps single tasking Amiga 4096 colors custom chips for video acceleration 4 voice stereo sound preemptive multitasking I wish C= had had his marketing ability though. I never saw an Amiga in a school or business like the Macintosh. Yea, I guess the CPU doesn't matter if these other features aren't important either . Quote:
http://eab.abime.net/showpost.php?p=...8&postcount=22 The 68060 gives impressive performance for no SIMD unit. It may be better to upgrade people to a 68060 than sell them MPEG hardware as the extra processing power is general purpose and easy to program . I think I would let sales numbers determine this. Personally, I like an upgradeable console which then allows an endless upgrade path (and revenue stream) like with computers. Sharing the same platform and OS also reduces costs (as it does with embedded). Why end the party early if we have a good thing going? |
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16 June 2017, 03:05 | #74 | |||||
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Not at all. Quote:
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more in 1998 (or at the mill-computing homepage..) Quote:
The MPEG chip can do 640x240 (double VideoCD) The AmigaPS has still a 68030. everything else would be to expensive - we are not upgrading the CPU of our console, because it is a console: new games must also work on the first unit we sold 3 years ago. We must sell it for max $399 we can not do that with a 68060 that costs over $200 on its own! Quote:
Last edited by Gorf; 16 June 2017 at 05:46. |
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19 June 2017, 08:49 | #75 |
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In The Year 1996
The year we introduce the Ωmiga Chip Set: ΩCS Before we talk more about our mystery CPU I have to share some news about the developments in the year 96: a new chipset and new models. Ωmiga Chip Set: the AAA+ chipset was the fundament of our turnaround. Is was everything that AGA was not and what AAA should have been. It was the basis for our successful next generation Amigas including our console AmigaPS. AAA++ was the consequent update to this: faster and more efficient, but only few new features. MGEG and 3D were powerful add ons, but not an intrinsic part of it. That is going to change now. And it will bring some other revolutionary new features as well. Ω is the last letter in the greek alphabet and it was chosen for a reason: the Ωmiga Chip Set will be the last generation, that has full hardware support for all legacy modes. In generations after that it will be necessary to emulate the old planar modes and other features in software. In good tradition we will give our functional units female names, but they are no longer separated chips, but be placed on two (and later one) die. Everything is now in 3D (and 128bit): As we are used to in 2017 there is no difference between pure 2D and 3D output. Even if your desktop environment looks flat, it is rendered as a 3D scene. the Andrea-Twins: The long missing twin sister returned and both have schizophrenia.Mary: Quadruples the available voices the same way.Julia: decodes MPEG, JPEG (also useful for textures), MP3Kate: Our 3D-chip and "blender". It does some 3d-calculations, controls the z-buffer and the texture-buffer, does mapping an shading, takes care of planar-conversion and color-lookup, sprites (now just small texture-elements), and old Lindas zooming-feature (=mapping).the Rainbow: In 1985 it was crazy to bring 4096 colors. We go crazy again an bring 36bit color depth in 1996.Hydra and ASB: Gets another speed-up. Network via link-portal reaches now over 200Mbit. ASB supports 28Mbit e.g. for external drives.Our Product-Line: Amiga-Cube: Introduced already last year with AAA++ chipset and a 68060+DSP will stay the same as our entry-level Amiga. Available with 66MHz or new with 75Mhz.Amiga-Server: Also from last year. Gets some faster PPC processor(s).Amiga 2000NG: Our new A1000, since it has nothing in common with the original 2000. Is is a ultra-slim desktop-case with keyboard-garage. To archive this form factor we use laptop-drives. The body is just 2.5cm (1inch) thick. But it is stable enough to carry your CRT. And it is wide an deep enough for a full length ZorroIII or PCI board ... but just one.Amiga Tower rev 3: A new look for our tower. As usual you can configure it at your wishes:Amiga AIO: We are proud of our new line of monitors we created together with Iiyama.Amiga Laptop: Still equipped with AAA++ and 68060. ΩCS is of course far to power hungry for a mobile device. Better displays and a suspend to RAM mode.AmigaPS and Amiga Genie: Both are still selling. We are now number two behind Sony PreyStation, but thats all right.What else? MS decided to ship Windows with the Internet Explorer and is attacking our browser monopoly. We did the same with AWB on Amigas since 93, but until now it was not free on Windows or MacOS except for private use. It is now. We also add new features like tapped browsing and a JIT for AScript. Last edited by Gorf; 20 June 2017 at 02:14. |
19 June 2017, 20:48 | #76 |
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Gorf, your Ωmiga Chip Set look great, but don't you think it would have been very expensive to produce at the time ?
Why going 36 bits for the graphics ? As i understand, human eyes can only see 16 millions colors. Going to something not "industry standard" make standard monitor not compatible ? So Amiga monitor would be much expensive. Maybe i don't understand your move ? I like the fully configurable Amiga tower, by the way, i think i have missed it in your previous post. Your alternate reality in far more ambitious than the ones i have wrote. Many many new technologies, chipset, that i can't dream of. Continue you timeline to today i'm impatient to see what to come. |
20 June 2017, 02:12 | #77 | |||||
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1996: 3dfx Voodoo (only 3D), ATI Rage (including 2d, 3D, MPEG) 1997: Nvidia Riva128 with over 3.5 million transistors So ΩCS would have more transistors than Voodoo and Rage and about equal to Riva ... maybe about 4 million. So it is high-class in 1996 but not impossible. Quote:
Even your small camera in your smartphone has at least 10 bit per color! Most people are not aware that 24bit is long gone in many fields. E.g. Blurray supports "deep color" up to 16bit per channel = 48bit! HDMI supports more than 8bit per channel since version 1.3 Quote:
There are some funny things to know about CRTs. Most of them had much better color-capabilities than all LCDs until very recently. The first TV-sets, that followed the definition of NTSC from 1953 to the letter, had an enormous color range! But the phosphors they used, turned out to degrade soon, so they switched to less colorful coatings. So if you buy a "sRGB" monitor today it will give you only 72% of the NTSC color-space... To answer your question: It is much cheaper to produce a more colorful CRT in the 90s than it is now. And it is much easier to do than producing a wide-gamut LCD. We are now selling millions of Amigas per month - so we can place large orders and our monitor would probably be just 50$ over others.. Quote:
Yes I think that is what many people, especially more experienced users wanted back than. Of course you will find pre-configured models in computer-shops as well. Quote:
Last edited by Gorf; 20 June 2017 at 14:23. |
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20 June 2017, 13:18 | #78 |
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In spite of this thread, I just read great article (as always from David L. Farquhar):
What happened to Digital Equipment Corporation? http://dfarq.homeip.net/what-happene...t-corporation/ Where he claim than Commodore had plans to use DEC Alpha CPU in Amiga... |
20 June 2017, 14:00 | #79 |
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@kovacm
In deed: it fits well. I was thinking of buying Alpha from DEC in 1996 - that was the year DEC sold its patents to Intel and from that on Intel was manufacturing the Alpha... a big mistake from DEC, but they needed the money. And this transaction was the result of a lawsuit: DEC was suing Intel to use their patents to speed up the pentium. This fact was missing in the article. Two years later Compaq buys the rest of DEC. The Alpha was a very well designed RISC CPU ... but we will have something even better. |
20 June 2017, 14:11 | #80 |
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