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Old 28 November 2020, 16:00   #21
dreamkatcha
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Originally Posted by SquawkBox View Post
Here is the outcome of that story. Recently, Danes had no other choice except to exhume the millions of carcasses. See, they realized with dismay that the numerous bodies could pollute the soil, so they have settled on setting them on fire instead .
Uggh, that's grisly. If Pet Semetary hadn't already been written and filmed I'd say someone's bound to turn this into a horror movie.

You'd expect one of the virology experts to have pointed out that soil leaching could be an issue before they started the massive operation of burying all the corpses. Hmm, would it though? Initially, people in white coats said the virus particles would die off within a week so it's OK to stick objects in quarantine to avoid contagion. Then this estimate was extended to a month. No idea how it stands now or if that's long enough for the weather elements to spread Corona.
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Old 28 November 2020, 18:47   #22
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The contagion which occurs after touching contaminated objects is minimal compared to the mist one non-masked bearer emits when he or she speaks or sings. Btw, it would prove more effective to wipe off the surface of an object or a tray you suspect of being infected with a sponge soaked in white vinegar than to wait for days for the virus particles to deactivate.
That's as far as surfaces are concerned.
Now concerning those rotting bodies of farmed minks, it's not the virus they hold which could possibly spread into the soil that worries people but the sheer amount of flesh, blood and feces which the nearby vegetable crops could not cope with. I think it's an environmental expert who alerted Denmark PM, not a epidemiology one. Why did they consider they had to slaughter them all, one might wonder ? I think it's not so much a matter of potential contagion towards humans (that's what I had in mind in the first place) but to prevent the virus from mutating into their bodies and thus making the various candidate vaccines ineffective to that variant. See, there's already some controversy about AstraZeneca's ineffectiveness since the latter hired rather young volunteers to serve as guinea pigs (sorry Brits).

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Old 01 December 2020, 08:18   #23
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Originally Posted by gimbal View Post
Note that I'm absolutely no fan of peanut oil
Truth to be told, I don't cook in pans much, except for the occasional omelet but when I was, I used a mix of olive oil and of the relatively unknown grape seed oil. I was told it was invented by a French pharmacist and has a high smoking point. Might be worth a try with an air fryer (personally, I wouldn't use it with a deep fryer).

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making Kimchi, the ultimate side dish.
Recently, China has been trying to claim Kimchi as part of their traditions :

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...chi-as-its-own

While I am fond of prickled vegetables, I would be cautious about the dosage of garlic and pepper they stir in that side dish, a lot presumably. My guess is sensible palates of Westerners may find the red variants too carby. Here in Paris, we merely have a couple of Korean stores, and they certainly won't sell ready to serve Kimchi, just some of the ingredients (at a hefty price).

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Old 01 December 2020, 09:38   #24
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Originally Posted by Daedalus View Post
receiving life-saving vaccines
In France, since bureaucracy took over, it's been a crazy situation (as some German newspaper pointed out, just google Absurdistan). Much to my surprise, noticed the caregivers themselves weren't used to wear surgical masks (I mean before Covid outburst), nor to get immunized against flu, generally speaking. I know because I've spotted a Dentist working at a social security center who didn't wear a mask, so what I did was writing them a letter (see folks, not only do I have a long history of OT'ing, I am also an informer ). Got a reply telling me I had made a couple of interesting observations, and that they were going to see to it.
Let's say you're in your 30-something (lucky you!), would you take the risk to get immunized against covid in that young fellow's shoes, having in mind a. the vaccine candidates test phases were rushed b. we live in a world where financial imperatives have taken precedence over development of people c. at worst, the risk you're facing amounts to chills and body aches, whereas a bad immune response to such vaccine can get you to the Hospital pronto ? Food for thought : What did that scrooge at the head of U.S. based Moderna did when the white collars working under his supervision told him they had succeeded in finding a potential vaccine ? Yup, he immediately sold a few of his shares for a substantial profit. All that talk about human welfare .

https://www.ctvnews.ca/health/corona...rise-1.5189713

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Old 01 December 2020, 09:49   #25
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Old 01 December 2020, 13:50   #26
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Originally Posted by SquawkBox View Post
In France, since bureaucracy took over, it's been a crazy situation (as some German newspaper pointed out, just google Absurdistan). Much to my surprise, noticed the caregivers themselves weren't used to wear surgical masks (I mean before Covid outburst), nor to get immunized against flu, generally speaking.
In most places of work for healthcare workers, it's not necessary to receive the 'flu immunisation, but it's strongly recommended and you must adhere to special procedures when you don't (avoiding care for certain high risk patients for example). Mask use has always been a risk-related thing. If the risk was already low, then they weren't likely to wear them. But show me any operating theatre where the staff don't wear masks.

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Let's say you're in your 30-something (lucky you!), would you take the risk to get immunized against covid in that young fellow's shoes, having in mind
I am 30-something, and yes, I will of course receive the vaccine at the earliest opportunity. Because, unlike him, I actually understand what's involved. Let's have a look at what you're saying:

Quote:
a. the vaccine candidates test phases were rushed
You're confusing rushing with simply going quickly. There are no shortcuts taken that compromise safety. What has happened is that the regulatory pathways (which are far and away the slowest part of getting any medical product to market) have been cleared so the Covid vaccines get to jump the months-long queues at every stage of the process, thereby saving literally years that would otherwise be spent simply waiting for regulatory responses. It's not rushing, it's just removing massive inefficiencies from the process.

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b. we live in a world where financial imperatives have taken precedence over development of people
Not sure what you're saying here about development of people, but without the massive capability of these commercial suppliers, we wouldn't have nearly as many vaccines in nearly as large quantities as we do. No, you can't trust commercial enterprises to not have money as their top priority; that's why all these companies are extremely tightly regulated by governing bodies who are commercially independent. And, given how much of a spotlight these companies are under, what with the global pandemic and all that, these companies will look *extremely* bad if they mess it up, resulting in massive financial losses. So they really do want to get it right.

Quote:
c. at worst, the risk you're facing amounts to chills and body aches, whereas a bad immune response to such vaccine can get you to the Hospital pronto ?
This is such a disproportionate representation of the situation that I really shouldn't have to explain it to you. You're trying to say that you've more chance of ending up in hospital from the vaccine than getting chills from the virus? You do know that people in their 30s have ended up in hospital because of Covid, right? And you do know young people have *died* because of Covid, right? For example, in the UK this year, 675 people aged 15-44 have died from Covid-19. So far, nobody who has received the vaccine has required hospitalisation. So, given the current statistics, you're less likely to require hospitalisation from getting the vaccine than getting the virus, regardless of age group. And, again from current statistics, your point should be entirely reversed: at worst, the risk you're facing if you contract the virus in that age group is death, at around 0.09%, whereas the chances of you needing hospitalisation (let alone death) from a bad immune response are lower than 0.005%, or less than 1 in 22,000, and likely to become even more remote.

As an illustration, there's always a chance that eating some pepper will land you in hospital from a bad immune response, yet I don't see you arguing against people eating pepper. Or peanuts. Or kiwis. Or eggs. Allergies are rare, and if you're sensitive to one of the ingredients of the vaccine (the vast majority of which are common with other vaccines, since they're rarely actually developed from scratch), you shouldn't receive it. Instead, you'll rely on everyone else getting it around you to keep you safe - all the more reason for me to get it as soon as it's available.

Quote:
Food for thought : What did that scrooge at the head of U.S. based Moderna did when the white collars working under his supervision told him they had succeeded in finding a potential vaccine ? Yup, he immediately sold a few of his shares for a substantial profit. All that talk about human welfare .
Yeah, opportunistic and greedy, but also simply a byproduct of the capitalist system we use. Someone, somewhere will always make huge profits when something unexpected happens. Others will lose huge amounts of money. It doesn't really change anything to do with the vaccine though, which still needs to undergo the exact same scrutiny as it would if it were developed by a private company, or indeed, by volunteers, before it can be made available to the public.
Putting yourself and others at risk purely because you don't like someone profiting from stock fluctuations seems very much like cutting your nose off to spite your face.
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Old 01 December 2020, 15:00   #27
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Originally Posted by gimbal View Post
It's a bit funky to advise fermented foods "because pandemic" - they have been a good idea for eons, no specific reason needed. It would be best to take the time to learn how to do that yourself though, at least in my neck of the woods they charge an arm and a leg for anything that is not sauerkraut. It's not labor intensive at all, you need a jar, vinegar and patience.

That would be my tip of the day: take this time to learn how to produce things yourself and maybe make healthier versions of your favourite junkfood - you get the benefit of something tasty without the gut growth. I can recommend starting with making extra crispy french fries from the oven - or doing an incredibly tasty variant with sweet potato. This video opened a new world to me:

[ Show youtube player ]

Pre-cutting the potatoes and boiling them in water with some vinegar to keep them firm... who knew. Note that I'm absolutely no fan of peanut oil, it's pretty much cancer in a bottle. But it's no worse than what your local snackbar uses and at home you have full control over how much is used, and you can properly draw it out with kitchen paper after baking.

Speaking of fermented foods... if that is something you are interested in then it might be time to learn the highest form of food art: making Kimchi, the ultimate side dish. I haven't been able to pull it off yet, it's Korean black magic as far as I'm concerned.
Tried it and I am really surprised by results. It is by far best home made french fries from scratch, and kids want to make more. We made 2 servings and they both did not last very long...

Thanks again for sharing that link.
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Old 02 December 2020, 16:42   #28
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Originally Posted by Daedalus View Post
In most places of work for healthcare workers, it's not necessary to receive the 'flu immunisation, but it's strongly recommended and you must adhere to special procedures when you don't (avoiding care for certain high risk patients for example).
I do believe it's necessary for them to receive it, the sooner the better. See, in time of pandemics, visiting nurses can be requested to assist their colleagues at the Hospital for intensive care purposes, think of them as military reservists but applied to the health system. This said, on a larger scale, do you really think someone who has been given a medical education will avoid completely doing occasional work for the elderly for all of his career, considering the proportion (and buying power, incidentally) of aging / retired people in our societies ? I don't.

Quote:
Mask use has always been a risk-related thing. If the risk was already low, then they weren't likely to wear them
Since he was checking dozens of patients teeth condition each day, that Dentist I evoked earlier on was definitely at risk. It's not because you work in the medical field that you should neglect safety and non-contact measures for yourself, quite the contrary.

Quote:
show me any operating theatre where the staff don't wear masks.
Come on, this has nothing to do with it. We were talking about caregivers in general, not surgeons in the line of duty, weren't we ?

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I am 30-something
That implies the risk that you end up in intensive care because of Covid is rather small, it also mean you still have a lot to learn (like the rest of us, don't get me wrong).

Quote:
regulatory pathways have been cleared so the Covid vaccines get to jump the months-long queues at every stage of the process, thereby saving literally years that would otherwise be spent simply waiting for regulatory responses. It's not rushing, it's just removing massive inefficiencies from the process.
It's a bit beyond my abilities, but I believe these stages are there for a reason. Not every country has followed that path of jumping queues, but most have I must admit. In France, the Pasteur Institute ongoing research on a candidate is still at phase one. This would probably take us too far, but I believe we wouldn't even had needed a vaccine in the first place if we had been able to tackle the pandemics proactively. Unlike what took place in Germany or in South Korea, French authorities often "played it by ear" in their attempts to resolve the threat posed by the virus contagiousness (R nought).

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these companies will look extremely bad if they mess it up, resulting in massive financial losses.
They can all go live under a bridge, for all I care. Maybe I should mention that some research is actually taking place in the U.S. to develop a nasal spray in order to fight Covid (conducted by the dude behind Regeneron, I think). Such spray, if proven effective, would give its bearer a full six months of immunization. Personally, I would take that treatment anytime over any of the vaccines.

Quote:
you've more chance of ending up in hospital from the vaccine than getting chills from the virus
No, of course not. Yet, there's a slight chance that you end up there, and believe me you don't want to be the one whose immune system reacts badly to it (IMHO it doesn't necessarily imply you're allergic to one of the ingredients, could be that you simply ran out of luck for lack of a better explanation, unlike the other guinea pigs out there).

Quote:
You do know that people in their 30s have ended up in hospital because of Covid, right? And you do know young people have died because of Covid, right? For example, in the UK this year, 675 people aged 15-44 have died from Covid-19.
We also had our share of losses among relatively healthy people, more precisely among the 45-65 as far as France is concerned, I'd rather say. It could be argued they were made on behalf of the "Golden Calf", Consumerism if you prefer. I am sure you have noticed aversion of lockdown measures to keep growth healthy in quite a few countries, sadly.
In ancient Greece, people went to the Oracle, and sometimes were told to engage into sacrifice. For instance, it wasn't uncommon that young captives were sacrificed as a plea to Dionysus. I think it's high time our societies regain a sense of spirituality. When times get rough, a secular temple in which authorities could ask the Oracle instead of relying on a bunch of so called experts could come in handy. Such temple altars could be filled with memory banks, such as a fortune teller in fairs. Who knows, a human sacrifice of a few virgins to the Gods may have spared these numerous lives. You're supposed take that suggestion with a pinch of salt, that's me attempting to soften the atmosphere.

Quote:
So far, nobody who has received the vaccine has required hospitalisation.
Sorry mate, it happened in Brazil not so long ago, with no other than the AstraZeneca vaccine.

Quote:
the ingredients of the vaccine (the vast majority of which are common with other vaccines, since they're rarely actually developed from scratch) you'll rely on everyone else getting it around you to keep you safe - all the more reason for me to get it as soon as it's available.
Does that include literally any available vaccine ? The Chinese one, the... Russian one (Sputnik V) ? Well, be my guest ! Ah, I should have suspected, you wouldn't even consider getting any of these last two. See, there are some countries whose authorities can't afford to win over the Americans in order to get the one from Pfizer, even if it could be stored in a bog standard freezer... which brings us to the few potential issues with the various vaccine candidates, Pfizer's for example require a very low temperature to be stored properly, so special freezers will have to be ordered, but that's not the end of it. The glass vials may alter the liquid properties they contain at such low temperature (- 70°C / -94°F, more or less). Mind you, it is a bit more involving than storing milk in the fridge e.q. ordinary glass may lose some of its properties under such strain. Also, both the upcoming vaccines are mRNA based, a proprietary technology. So, unlike Pasteur, whose vaccine candidate is based on the one that was used for measles, quite new ways of doing things, if you ask me. So, in short, if you want to be given a vaccine not developed from scratch, you may want to wait for the one Pasteur is currently working on.

https://www.statnews.com/2020/11/10/...-vaccine-race/

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you'll rely on everyone else getting it around you
There's no such thing as "everyone else around me" (except the Amiga community maybe). There is me, my relatives, and the people with whom I cross path and engage in various deals, arrangements, and sometimes relationships. I am lucky enough so that I can be on my own (for a while at least) if the situation demands it, self-confined so to speak. Also, if the losses are staggering in your country, don't blame the authorities, blame yourself for putting them into a position from which they may endanger your safety, your savings, the caregivers and physicists working at the nearby hospital, the elderly you care for.

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opportunistic and greedy, but also simply a byproduct of the capitalist system we use.
You may think you use it but, in reality, you're used by it, and the more you are committed to participate in social networks, to binge watch popular series, to compulsively use your cell phone, the less room you have to think and act on your own. It should be a concern to each and everyone of us to varying degree, except for a small minority who pull the strings, and benefit from special dispensation.

Last edited by SquawkBox; 03 December 2020 at 13:09.
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Old 03 December 2020, 20:37   #29
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I do believe it's necessary for them to receive it, the sooner the better.
Absolutely, I'm in agreement. What I'm saying is though that the requirements vary depending on risk, and things like the 'flu vaccine aren't mandatory everywhere (though it's strongly encouraged and has widespread uptake).


Quote:
Since he was checking dozens of patients teeth condition each day, that Dentist I evoked earlier on was definitely at risk. It's not because you work in the medical field that you should neglect safety and non-contact measures for yourself, quite the contrary.
Absolutely.

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Come on, this has nothing to do with it. We were talking about caregivers in general, not surgeons in the line of duty, weren't we ?
It's an illustrative example where different levels of risk result in different requirements.

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That implies the risk that you end up in intensive care because of Covid is rather small, it also mean you still have a lot to learn (like the rest of us, don't get me wrong).
I agree we all have a lot to learn, but your condescension seems to be implying you know something I don't. Do share. Yes, the risk I end up in intensive care is low, but still higher if I contract the virus than if I get the vaccine. And, of course, there are far more people affected than just myself. I might be fine, but I do also consider others in these matters, as I believe members of a functioning society should. I don't want to spread the infection, because once that happens, I'm no longer able to limit it to just people who are low risk.


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It's a bit beyond my abilities, but I believe these stages are there for a reason.
Of course they do, but the queue has no function other than waiting for previous submissions to be processed since they got there first. The regulatory stages are well defined in the European directives (and the upcoming regulations), and all stages must be met. All stages are being satisfied here, just without the waiting in between and with more personnel thrown at it. Which parts of the process do you think are being missed?

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They can all go live under a bridge, for all I care.
Indeed, but if you don't care, then why use the commercial aspect as a reason to suspect they're not doing as good a job as they could? *They* care, whether it's for reasons of altruism or greed, they want this to be as good as it possibly can be.

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Maybe I should mention that some research is actually taking place in the U.S. to develop a nasal spray in order to fight Covid (conducted by the dude behind Regeneron, I think). Such spray, if proven effective, would give its bearer a full six months of immunization. Personally, I would take that treatment anytime over any of the vaccines.
Because harmful substances can't enter the body via the lungs? Yes, to be fair, nasal application will open it up to a wider population such as young children and people with a phobia of needles. The 'flu vaccine is usually also available as a nasal spray every year.

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No, of course not. Yet, there's a slight chance that you end up there, and believe me you don't want to be the one whose immune system reacts badly to it (IMHO it doesn't necessarily imply you're allergic to one of the ingredients, could be that you simply ran out of luck for lack of a better explanation, unlike the other guinea pigs out there)
Do explain the mechanism of "luck" here, and how that's statistically different in this context to anaphylaxis. Of course there's a slight chance of it. But there's more of a chance of ending up in hospital as a result of the infection, as I demonstrated previously. Taking the vaccine is the lesser risk, so is the safest and most sensible option, even without considering the larger picture of the societal benefit of having more of the population immunised.

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Sorry mate, it happened in Brazil not so long ago, with no other than the AstraZeneca vaccine.
Indeed, though the statistics I was quoting above were from the Pfizer trial. That's unfortunate that someone has died, however, we'll have to wait until that's fully investigated before we can see for sure exactly what happened. Regardless, if you include that cohort with the Pfizer trial, it still demonstrates that the risk is even lower than I estimated in my previous post - around 0.004%. And, even taking that trial in Brazil in isolation, it still shows that the vaccine is safer than catching the virus, with a risk of death from the vaccine at around 1 in 8000, but a risk of death from the virus of around 1 in 35.

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Does that include literally any available vaccine ? The Chinese one, the... Russian one (Sputnik V) ? Well, be my guest ! Ah, I should have suspected, you wouldn't even consider getting any of these last two.
What point are you trying to make here? If it has passed all the regulatory requirements for use in the EU, I'll take it, regardless of where it was made. If it hasn't, I won't. There's a reason medical products are so intensely scrutinised.

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See, there are some countries whose authorities can't afford to win over the Americans in order to get the one from Pfizer, even if it could be stored in a bog standard freezer...
Yep, products developed in western countries will cost more, not least because they will cost vastly more to develop and manufacture. If your regulatory processes are less exacting, it will cost less. If your skilled workforce are cheaper, it will cost less. If the cost of a clinical trial is lower, it will cost less.

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which brings us to the few potential issues with the various vaccine candidates, Pfizer's for example require a very low temperature to be stored properly, so special freezers will have to be ordered, but that's not the end of it. The glass vials may alter the liquid properties they contain at such low temperature (- 70°C / -94°F, more or less). Mind you, it is a bit more involving than storing milk in the fridge e.q. ordinary glass may lose some of its properties under such strain. Also, both the upcoming vaccines are mRNA based, a proprietary technology. So, unlike Pasteur, whose vaccine candidate is based on the one that was used for measles, quite new ways of doing things, if you ask me. So, in short, if you want to be given a vaccine not developed from scratch, you may want to wait for the one Pasteur is currently working on.
Yep, I'm quite familiar with the storage requirements of the main candidates and what's involved in meeting such requirements. While it's a little more specialised, at least in developed countries, -80 freezers are relatively common in health centres, storage in glass vials in such conditions is well understood from other products, and transport in such conditions is well established, though more expensive naturally. And while mRNA is a relatively novel technique in public vaccination, the vaccine is still based on previous vaccines in terms of the other ingredients involved. So it's not like those ingredients (which make up the vast majority of the vaccine) have never been used or put through trials in other products before.

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There's no such thing as "everyone else around me" (except the Amiga community maybe). There is me, my relatives, and the people with whom I cross path and engage in various deals, arrangements, and sometimes relationships. I am lucky enough so that I can be on my own (for a while at least) if the situation demands it, self-confined so to speak.
That's great for you, that none of those relatives with whom you have contact ever have contact with any other groups of people. But maybe you don't actually have contact with them either, and I'm misunderstanding you.

The vast majority of the population have contact with others, even if it's people using the same stairwell in their apartment block or using the same shop to buy their food.

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Also, if the losses are staggering in your country, don't blame the authorities, blame yourself for putting them into a position from which they may endanger your safety, your savings, the caregivers and physicists working at the nearby hospital, the elderly you care for.
Not really sure what point you're trying to make here, but it sounds a little bit irrelevant to the current reality. Viruses don't care about politics.

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You may think you use it but, in reality, you're used by it, and the more you are committed to participate in social networks, to binge watch popular series, to compulsively use your cell phone, the less room you have to think and act on your own. It should be a concern to each and everyone of us to varying degree, except for a small minority who pull the strings, and benefit from special dispensation.
*yawn* I'm well aware of how it works, thanks. It wasn't the point I was making.
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