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Old 23 December 2002, 03:49   #21
fiath
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Quote:
Originally posted by Amigaboy
I'm fairly disappointed...
I'm sorry to hear that...

Quote:

I was always under the impression that any support added by WinUAE (or anything that uses the DLL) would allow us to use the raw output given by the CAPS imager.
I was hoping this would be the case....Personally, I wanted to image all of my original disks only for storage purposes, knowing that if ever need be, I could use these images. My intention was always to preserve my disks rather than to distribute...
Now that I know we can only use images provided by CAPS, there's no point IMO. It defies the whole purpose of preservation, because in reality, you can only preserve what the CAPS team releases.
Ah, but you are forgetting one MAJOR point. How do you know if your disk have been modified or have errors? You don't! If we did not care about data integrity then we could have had our first release ABOUT A YEAR AGO.

We have always explained these reasons on the WIP. For a small summary, look at the Feb 2002 WIP.

We have had HUNDREDS of duff (virus, modified, errored) disks that have been dumped. Do you really want these broken disks floating about the net? We don't!

Do you want emulation to get better? Well now we know that the disks are 100% correct, authors know they do not have to worry about the data being bad (or bad crack, whatever).

Quote:

To be honest, I'm hoping the remastering tool(s) you provide will be able to write these Raw images back to disk. If it can't, then I can say that I don't plan on ever using the CAPS tools.
Actually, it is IMPOSSIBLE to do that and expect it to work. We could not let you do that even if we wanted to. The reasons are explained in the WIP's. But very basically: You need to know what your writing, and HOW you write it before you can *actually* write it.

Sorry, there is nothing we can do about that. It simply cannot be done reliably. This is another reason we are doing it how we are.

If you want more detailed info as to *why* this is the case, let me know and I will try to explain it.

Quote:

I think you should provide Official CAPS releases in IPF format (as you already plan)....for those that want them, get the TOSEC datfile and download them all to have the Official set.
If this happens, then any raw images floating around are definately UNOFFICIAL. CAPS has no association with them. Noone is forced to download them, but they are still usable images.
As I said, there is no point (for reasons above). People cannot use them - even if we wanted this.

Quote:

Also, using the Raw image format is a definite bonus to the WHDLoad team. Rather than using MFMWarp (or similar) to image the disks, the user can simply image their disks and send them directly to WHDLoad team members who can write the image back to disk and have the disk sitting with them as if it were posted to them.
This is planned - we are talking to them. However, it can only be done for release images.

Quote:

Don't get me wrong fiath....I've always been a supporter of CAPS and I realise how much effort has been put into this project, but I can't support it as much as I used to.
No problem. Constructive critisism is good to keep people on their toes. However, I hope I have explained why none of what you would like with dump images is possible.

I am sorry you feel that way, it is mostly because we cannot do anything about it, but partly because we have invested so much time (and money) making sure we have 100% correct Amiga games, that I really think what you want is a bad idea in the long run.

Anyway, let me know how you feel now. And any questions, then just pump them here...
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Old 23 December 2002, 03:55   #22
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More about writing dump images back to disk.

You know the trace machines that duplicated all your Amiga games? Well even they have to have a "description" file to tell them HOW to write a disk format.

This description file is written in a disk structure description language called "Freeform" and was developed by "Magnetic Design Corp".

You may be interested to hear that our own disk description language is partially based on the Freeform language!

Anwyay, I hope this goes a little towards explaining why it MUST be done this way, rather that what *we* would like.
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Old 23 December 2002, 04:06   #23
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ok....Knowing that it's virtually impossible to write back to disk, I take back just about everything I said....

As for the modified original thing, this isn't an issue with me...As I said before, it's simply to back up my own personal collection. If my originals have viruses, then I want an image of it. It's just so I know I can step on my originals and use them as frisbees.

Quote:

You need to know what your writing, and HOW you write it before you can *actually* write it.
Actually, is there no way of writing the specific disk details onto the disk? While imaging, it refers to some database (or whatever), determines the necessary details and writes the image? By doing so, it allows the image to be written back to disk at a later stage....If this isn't possible either, then I'll shut up and go back to my Street Fightering

Thanks for the info though fiath
 
Old 23 December 2002, 04:12   #24
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Keep up the good work Fiath!

Hopefully in a 100 years time, people will be able to experience Amiga games and we experienced them all those years ago. And CAPS would make this possible. sounds good to me
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Old 23 December 2002, 04:21   #25
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@ Amigaboy

Yeah, no worries. Honestly - we wouldn't be so fanatic about it if it wasn't really necessary!

Anyway, yeah - that is what is an IPF file all about! It holds enough information to make a disk reproducable in either memory (ie emulators, whdload installs etc) or in its physical form.

It is your "database" if you like.

Spot on
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Old 23 December 2002, 04:26   #26
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Quote:
Originally posted by Amigaboy
It's just so I know I can step on my originals and use them as frisbees.
You'd be very sad to find out months later that the disk must be redumped and your disk is already wasted

That is the whole point of the analysation process: making it sure that what we have is a perfect dump of a game, so it is in fact preserved (and will stay preserved till eternity) and not just dumped (and if the dump/disk fails only people who actually want to and do use them will find out and it will be way too late at that time).

I guess you see now why it is all so important now.
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Old 23 December 2002, 04:37   #27
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Hi,

I was always under the impression that any support added by WinUAE (or anything that uses the DLL) would allow us to use the raw output given by the CAPS imager.

No idea how you might have gotten that impression, since it's something mentioned throughout with precise careful distinction.

Moreover, why would anyone even want to use a Raw Dump ? That may contain errors that need to be checked, worked upon, and stamped with a "seal of quality". CAPS is by doing this, out of it's own work and time spent, assuring an owner that that IPF CAPS perservation will work for you in 10, 20, 50, 100 years. Instead of having a very nasty surprise one day.

CAPS preservation actions aren't also limited to just dumping games, but, truly preserving them: Covers, Manuals, etc ...

I was hoping this would be the case....Personally, I wanted to image all of my original disks only for storage purposes, knowing that if ever need be, I could use these images. My intention was always to preserve my disks rather than to distribute...

If your intention is to preserve, although this isn't CAPS main intent, you can still have Raw Dumps, and decide later on to make them go the extra mile and make them release quality assured material. Will you be able to use them? No, but they sure will be in a better place than on an ever decaying magnetic media ... and that's what preservation is.

Regarding the "Raw Dumps" subject i believe there's major missunderstanding, these are nothing of real importance, and they're merely a chrysalis of the oncoming CAPS preserved final format. They're a tool, an intermediate phase, merely that. Just the way an antiques seller treats and brings the original beauty before selling a product once again.

Now that I know we can only use images provided by CAPS, there's no point IMO. It defies the whole purpose of preservation, because in reality, you can only preserve what the CAPS team releases.

Quite the opposite. This measure is the backbone of any hope for quality and true preservation of the works of art 16bit Amiga Classic games were. The CAPS team is working day and night to process all the requests for preservation.

If you wanted everyone "releasing" images, untested dumps, bug ridden images, anarchic, ilegal, unorganized dumps flying all over the place, then you're right - CAPS is not about that. And much more in the vein of the organisation of something like MAME.

To be honest, I'm hoping the remastering tool(s) you provide will be able to write these Raw images back to disk. If it can't, then I can say that I don't plan on ever using the CAPS tools.

Not sure if that's decided quite yet, but you can easily realise ... what if the Raw Dump is not in perfect shape for using ? What if it contains errors ? Errors you may not notice until too late ? Surely the re-mastering would suffer as much as the digital conservation via Raw Dump without testing.

I think you should provide Official CAPS releases in IPF format (as you already plan)....for those that want them

For those who own them. As a service. You can easily realise that those games are not ours to "distribute" and you'll never see CAPS doing that. If you find any on the web, then by all means, go ahead, be my guest Of course, as mentioned legal copies can be distributed by whoever has permissions, websites or original developers - This is the first time, ever, that preservation of the true game is available, this is exciting for game makers who which to truly preserve their games, until now, they had no chance of that.

get the TOSEC datfile and download them all to have the Official set.

Never heard anyone saying otherwise, however, as you can probably guess, you won't download them of the CAPS site.

If this happens, then any raw images floating around are definately UNOFFICIAL. CAPS has no association with them.

Yes, you can be sure of that.

Noone is forced to download them, but they are still usable images.

No. They're completely useless images. They're very useful for CAPS though. And can be turned preserved and useful.

No point in destributing them, really, anyone doing it will simply be wasting their bandwidth.

Also, using the Raw image format is a definite bonus to the WHDLoad team.

And ? If they WHDLoad team wants access, CAPS is always contactable - Attention, CAPS is not totally unlimited in what regards access to dumps. CAPS created a technological solution for preservation, it did not create the games, and we're as limited as the writer of Winzip is of spreading ZIP files with whatever content in it.

Rather than using MFMWarp (or similar) to image the disks, the user can simply image their disks and send them directly to WHDLoad team members who can write the image back to disk and have the disk sitting with them as if it were posted to them.

And you can't do that with the CAPS team ... ?

Let me put this example to you, here's MrLuigi ( ;-) ) and MrLuigi decided to pick up is Raw Dump, and send it to WDHL team, and received his disk remastered (god knows why he didn't went to the source and have done it with CAPS, but that's not the point) then all of a sudden he dies, the disk gets thrown into the trash, game lost forever.

Is this preservation ?

And CAPS is here to preservate, as a service to a community, as much as we'd like to (?) we're not a service where individuals can get their copies remastered for free ...

And, again, by using a Raw Dump you'd be using an untested, unassured, remaster. I don't know to what extent you'd be getting any better of with a cracked ADF. This assurance is the whole point of preservation ... would you preserve Roman Artifacts together with rocks, soil, dust, etc ... no you have to work it up. in a sense CAPS does that as well, it's not merely a Dump station. It's a true preservation station.

Don't get me wrong fiath....I've always been a supporter of CAPS and I realise how much effort has been put into this project, but I can't support it as much as I used to.

"You should have read the godamned FAQ damn it!"



Then again, i believe most of your points of conflict come out of missunderstanding of how things will play out. Things will become clearly with time.

Also, please visit www.mame.dk, you'll see a full database, and no downloads, at one point, it had the full MAME set. Please find out what happened to that site.

CAPS produced a brilliant revolutionary piece of technology, it'd be foolish to put it all to risk for a quick pleasure fix.

Later,
Fjrb
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Old 23 December 2002, 05:04   #28
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You keep mentioning quality...I realise that this is the goal of CAPS, but this isn't my goal. As I said before "it's simply to back up my own personal collection. If my originals have viruses, then I want an image of it.". Quality is not an issue. I just need assurance that I have an exact copy of my disk.

Quote:
And ? If they WHDLoad team wants access, CAPS is always contactable
The problem with this is, a 3rd party becomes involved. The WHDLoad process has always been:
User -> Send Original Disk/Image -> WHDLoad Slave Writer -> Creates Slave -> Releases Slave
CAPS would be placed somewhere in there...at that point, the WHDLoad team would have to wait for the CAPS team to be done converting the image to the IPF format....If this doesn't take long, then it's fine, but if it takes anything more than a couple of days, then it's useless.....
btw - How long does it take to convert from the Raw image to IPF?

Oh yeah...I never intended for CAPS to release the images on their own site. I've seen numerous sites being shut down due to that...

Quote:
Also, please visit www.mame.dk, you'll see a full database, and no downloads, at one point, it had the full MAME set. Please find out what happened to that site.
teehee.....I'm the one person you shouldn't be saying that too. I know MAME (and anything related to MAME) like the back of my hand.

You're right in saying that most of what I said was from misunderstanding....fiath explained everything clearly....Even so, I won't be using the CAPS tools until the output from them becomes usable in some way (if ever)....sorry to disappoint ya's
 
Old 23 December 2002, 05:21   #29
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Fjrb: Writing CAPS dumps to disk cannot be done.

Quote:
Originally posted by Amigaboy
CAPS would be placed somewhere in there...at that point, the WHDLoad team would have to wait for the CAPS team to be done converting the image to the IPF format....If this doesn't take long, then it's fine, but if it takes anything more than a couple of days, then it's useless.....
btw - How long does it take to convert from the Raw image to IPF?
If the disk format is fully known, then about.. 3-4 seconds? It is done automatically by some highly complex software.

If it is not known (less and less common , then it needs to be reverse engineered, which can take anything from 5 minutes to several hours, maybe even more looking for integrity info and working out how the CRC algos work. But the guy that does it is *extreamly* clever.

The thing that takes time though, is the packaging up. Like, artwork scans etc. You will see what I mean if you look at a CAPS release.

Anyway, no worries. I am glad you know more about it now!
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Old 23 December 2002, 05:26   #30
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If the disk format is fully known, then about.. 3-4 seconds? It is done automatically by some highly complex software.

If it is not known (less and less common , then it needs to be reverse engineered, which can take anything from 5 minutes to several hours, maybe even more looking for integrity info and working out how the CRC algos work. But the guy that does it is *extreamly* clever.

The thing that takes time though, is the packaging up. Like, artwork scans etc. You will see what I mean if you look at a CAPS release.
Knowing that, then it's a viable option to send the image to CAPS before sending to WHDLoad, only because it takes less than a day (in most cases)

Quote:
Anyway, no worries. I am glad you know more about it now!
Me too
 
Old 23 December 2002, 05:37   #31
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Quote:
Originally posted by Amigaboy
Knowing that, then it's a viable option to send the image to CAPS before sending to WHDLoad, only because it takes less than a day (in most cases)
Don't forget we need to port the library to the Amiga before the WHDLoad guys can take advantage of CAPS images.

Probably some time early next year.
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Old 23 December 2002, 06:00   #32
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Hi,

You keep mentioning quality...I realise that this is the goal of CAPS, but this isn't my goal.

Granted, but when you say something like what CAPS isn't doing isn't preservation, i have to point out, it's exactly the opposite. What you described was that you were hoping that it was a personal backup tool - and that, it isn't (in a way) - it's a preservation tool, and at that, believe me, it is, with all the details geared into that objective. As of the moment a game is Preserved ... it's saved. Forever.

This is preservation.

As I said before "it's simply to back up my own personal collection.

But what if MrLuigi dies ... ? That's right you forgot MrLuigi didn't you

And he dies, and no copy remains, that's not preservation, that's extinction.

If my originals have viruses, then I want an image of it.". Quality is not an issue. I just need assurance that I have an exact copy of my disk.

You created quite the epitome of a paradox here. You can't really have the assurence of an exact copy of your disk without quality being an issue. It's bit like saying "i don't want quality, i just want quality."

Preservating a copy of a copy protected amiga game in a floppy, something that was impossible not long ago, is an involved and complex process, which requires quality assurence.

The problem with this is, a 3rd party becomes involved. The WHDLoad process has always been:
User -> Send Original Disk/Image -> WHDLoad Slave Writer -> Creates Slave -> Releases Slave


CAPS is a preservation effort, but if cooperation can be achieved, and can help people out there ...

Oh yeah...I never intended for CAPS to release the images on their own site. I've seen numerous sites being shut down due to that...

Yeah. Someone else said that. Sorry about that

...Even so, I won't be using the CAPS tools until the output from them becomes usable in some way (if ever)....

That's a falacy. CAPS tool output is usable in some way, and quite an outstanding way, creating a timeless perfect copy of an original amiga copy-protected game - Something claimed to be impossible not very long ago

It just isn't usable in the way you'd like it to be (and then again...)
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Old 23 December 2002, 12:04   #33
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Quote:
Let me put this example to you, here's MrLuigi ( ;-) ) and MrLuigi decided to pick up is Raw Dump, and send it to WDHL team, and received his disk remastered (god knows why he didn't went to the source and have done it with CAPS, but that's not the point) then all of a sudden he dies, the disk gets thrown into the trash, game lost forever.

Is this preservation ?
This example is VILEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!! I wouldn't care about preservarion of a floppy disk when i'm DEAD!!

I don't think anyone will care about the difference between and adf and a caps image in 100 years, ar shorter (I actually doubt it's any real use to anyone at the moment.)

Last edited by Burseg; 23 December 2002 at 12:24.
 
Old 23 December 2002, 12:16   #34
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Wizard Warz

Quote:
Originally posted by fiath
???

We have *always* said we will not provide the games from the site. Look at the FAQ (and elsewhere)! We are not an Amiga game download site - we are just behind the technology!

We do not have permission to host the games for a start. There is no point risking CAPS over some stupid copyright dispute!

As for rarities: I don't think there exists even a crack of Wizard Warz, it is "hyper rare".

I can't see any trick played on anyone. I have NEVER said we would be offering games to people. Does WHDLoad pages offer games to download?

Believe me, CAPS releases will be easy enough to get very soon.

Dumps database: You have taken that the wrong way. But I agree it is misleading - I will change it. It means a database of all games we have dumps for. Information about them - not the games themselves!
I have it cracked here, and a WHDLoad version, I just thought the game was so shit that no-one would remark its non-release!

No offence, but I think a more 'ground breaking' game would have been in order instead of Canvas Softwares 'non tour de force'!!
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Old 23 December 2002, 12:33   #35
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Hehe, yes, it is a very crap game!

But it is not the game, it is the symbolism.
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Old 23 December 2002, 12:38   #36
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Just noticed this, during all the fuss going on around here.. :P

0000 57076f41 Wizard Wars 2382.adf
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Old 23 December 2002, 12:40   #37
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I've read so many things about CAPS now that I'm starting to get confused. So here is my simple question: In the future, when, for example, my Settlers disks get knackered, will CAPS be able to provide me with what I need to make new exact Settlers disks that I can play on a real Amiga.
I don't want cracks cos I agree they spoil games with their messages at the start or built in cheat menus. I would want an exact copies of the disks including the copy protection (I doubt my manual will degrade too much over time) that I can use to make replacement disks or to install the game to a hard drive, assuming in the future DD disks will be impossible to find.
If you can't and never will be able to use what CAPS are doing to put games on a real Amiga what exactly is the point? To preserve games to be used with emulators (Which I could live with as I accept my Amiga will probably die in the future)?
I hope you can clear things up for my because I think the principal behind CAPS is admirable, but I don't know how you plan to implement it.
 
Old 23 December 2002, 13:15   #38
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Quote:
Originally posted by fiath
Hehe, yes, it is a very crap game!

But it is not the game, it is the symbolism.
Yes, finally, a release! With all the trimmings! Well worth the wait, there's nothing like integrity. Please continue & thank you very much!
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Old 23 December 2002, 13:23   #39
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Many games to be released are crap. Many Amiga games are crap.

But that is not really the point. The point is that as far as we were aware, this games was unavailable. That fact alone makes it a very high candidate for preservation. People who had the game could not replace it!

We never claimed it would be exclusive, we just said it was very rare, and it is! We did actually think that there was a crack available whatsoever, but the fact that there is/was doesn't really bother us. We are not in it for fame, we are in it to preserve Amiga games...

|cy[ool: does it work?
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Old 23 December 2002, 13:26   #40
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Quote:
Originally posted by NytroX86
I've read so many things about CAPS now that I'm starting to get confused. So here is my simple question: In the future, when, for example, my Settlers disks get knackered, will CAPS be able to provide me with what I need to make new exact Settlers disks that I can play on a real Amiga.
I don't want cracks cos I agree they spoil games with their messages at the start or built in cheat menus. I would want an exact copies of the disks including the copy protection (I doubt my manual will degrade too much over time) that I can use to make replacement disks or to install the game to a hard drive, assuming in the future DD disks will be impossible to find.
If you can't and never will be able to use what CAPS are doing to put games on a real Amiga what exactly is the point? To preserve games to be used with emulators (Which I could live with as I accept my Amiga will probably die in the future)?
I hope you can clear things up for my because I think the principal behind CAPS is admirable, but I don't know how you plan to implement it.

No, no, no. You cannot write *dump* files back to disk! Released files (such as WW) will be wriable as soon as we release the remastering program.

Writing the images back to disk is, and always has been our highest priority! We just thought people would like to see some stuff first, as it will be a few more months.
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